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Terrorist Threat = Propaganda - 8/13/2006 6:45:22 PM

Chaingang

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"Early arrests made under US pressure, British say"
Sydney Morning Herald
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/early-arrests-made-under-us-pressure-british-say/2006/08/13/1155407675139.html

BRITISH and American authorities had a significant disagreement over when to move in on suspects in the alleged plot to bring down US-bound airliners, US reports suggest.

A senior British official told NBC News on Saturday that British police were planning to continue surveillance for at least another week as the suspects had not yet bought airline tickets and some did not even have passports.

---

"NBC: U.S. Rushed Terror Bust, Brit Source Says"
http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/001331.php

NBC News has learned that U.S. and British authorities had a significant disagreement over when to move in on the suspects in the alleged plot to bring down trans-Atlantic airliners bound for the United States.

A senior British official knowledgeable about the case said British police were planning to continue to run surveillance for at least another week to try to obtain more evidence, while American officials pressured them to arrest the suspects sooner. The official spoke on condition of anonymity due to the sensitivity of the case.

In contrast to previous reports, the official suggested an attack was not imminent, saying the suspects had not yet purchased any airline tickets. In fact, some did not even have passports.

---

Gee, that's some scary lot there - "some did not even have passports"...

So...uh...er...gee...how were they going to make an international flight to the U.S. without passports? I guess some of you living in fear - Popeye, Mercnbeth, et al - can explain the *CURRENT* significance of these clearly overstated threats.

Thank god we have assertive warmongering oil/munitions industry whores like Bush in power at this time of non-crisis!

_____________________________

"Everything flows, nothing stands still." (Πάντα ῥεῖ καὶ οὐδὲν μένει) - Heraclitus

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RE: Terrorist Threat = Propaganda - 8/13/2006 6:51:45 PM

Daddy4UdderSlut

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Now wait a minute. One can question whether it's proper for the US to try to drive the actions of the British security forces. But, that doesn't mean that this is all just propaganda.

While it will take awhile for everything to come out, I don't think there is any way that the British authorities would arrest 24 people in highly publicized fashion, who weren't actually doing anything wrong. That just wouldn't be in there interest.

(in reply to Chaingang)

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RE: Terrorist Threat = Propaganda - 8/13/2006 7:08:02 PM

Level

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If some did not have passports, that means some did. Maybe they were going to be the ones carrying things out. And if the British were only going to wait another week before making the arrests, sounds like they were pretty sure that something was wrong.

Thank goodness we have vigilant guardians of good that put an end to the nefarious plot of the would be murderers.

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RE: Terrorist Threat = Propaganda - 8/13/2006 7:22:16 PM

juliaoceania

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Terrorists=commie scare as far as I am concerned.. the more afraid we are, the more money our government can give to companies that are involved with the military industrial complex. If our government really wanted to stop terrorism they would 1) stop committing state terror 2) they would address the processes that are well documented that cause terrorism.. it isn't rocket science, it is social science.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Chaingang)

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RE: Terrorist Threat = Propaganda - 8/13/2006 8:31:39 PM

Chaingang

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Daddy4UdderSlut, Level:

These guys were clowns. Most likely loose lipped motherfuckers that immediately made it onto law enforcement's radar. Yet again I must assert that professionals do not get caught, they carry out their schemes - sad for us too when they do.

Even the fact that there was disagreement about when to make the sting means that there is a political motive at stake here. If the only concern was law enforcement then why not wait and possibly ensnare a few more members of the supposed terrorist conspiracy? Why the push? Why the rush?

BTW, it seems to me that everyone rushing to judgment on the whole Al-Qaeda/Islamist Extremist angle in this is a kind of conspiracy nut. I aim this comment at Mercnbeth and anyone else that is overeager to lump together followers of Islam.

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"Everything flows, nothing stands still." (Πάντα ῥεῖ καὶ οὐδὲν μένει) - Heraclitus

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RE: Terrorist Threat = Propaganda - 8/13/2006 11:37:40 PM

Archer

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OK this falls into the arena of "risk tolerance". Two governments/depts each with a different level of risk tolerance, and seems your risk tolerance is even higher than either party. So what makes your opinion of when they should have sprung the trap any more educated/ responsible than the people who made the call? The agencies in this case debated the timeing and under pressure or not they made the decission, Didn't hear anything like threats to suspend trade, or anything of that sort, they debated and in this case the US agency won the debate evidently and the arrests were made.

As to lumping them in with Al Queda, the hardest press for that I've seen have been the free press eager to sensationalize the story even further. I have not heard much from the government officials on either side of the pond saying we know it's them, I have in fact heard the opposite for the most part government officials mostly reluctant to link them officially to any group until the evidence gets examined.

(in reply to Chaingang)

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RE: Terrorist Threat = Propaganda - 8/14/2006 12:02:58 AM

CrappyDom

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Don't forget, this lot of terrorists are connected to the same ones that we blew the investigation on last time when, for propaganda purposes, our idiot in chief, announced that the Pakis had turned a senior Al Queda guy who was working with a group in England and so most of them bolted.

This is the very definition of SNAFU, situation normal, ALL FUCKED UP. Of course, most of the idiot neocons here don't even remember the above because it wasn't covered on FOX tonight.

(in reply to Archer)

Post #: 7

RE: Terrorist Threat = Propaganda - 8/14/2006 1:38:29 AM

Chaingang

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer
The agencies in this case debated the timeing and under pressure or not they made the decission...

My thinking is this: if they REALLY had something juicy here it doesn't need to be policitized, not in the slightest. If it were really some scary plot they could just tell you the cold, hard facts and everyone would be freaking out. The fact the it is being politicized and timing moved around to satisfy a political agenda tells me there is far less juice here than they would like us to believe. In fact, the absence of information and the lack of what might turn out to be erroneous jumping to conclusions on the part of each government allows the press through endless journalistic and editorial speculation to fill the vaccuum.

"Prime Minister, where these men members of Al Qaeda?"
"I can't comment at this time."
"Speculation continues as to whether or not the members of the hijacking plot were members of Al Qaeda..."

What you have to consider is how this plays out in another few years. Remember Jose Padilla? The American "enemy combatant" held without due process of law. Well, once upon a time he was front page news too. Remember how he was building a "dirty bomb" and how everyone was scared shitless for fear of airborn plutonium? Here's the update:

---

None of the original allegations put forward by the U.S. government three years ago, the claims that held Padilla in the majority in solitary confinement throughout that period, were part of the indictment: "Attorney General Alberto Gonzales announced Padilla is being removed from military custody and charged with a series of crimes" and "There is no mention in the indictment of Padilla's alleged plot to use a dirty bomb in the United States. There is also no mention that Padilla ever planned to stage any attacks inside the country. And there is no direct mention of Al-Qaeda. Instead the indictment lays out a case involving five men who helped raise money and recruit volunteers in the 1990s to go overseas to countries including Chechnya, Bosnia, Somalia and Kosovo. Padilla, in fact, appears to play a minor role in the conspiracy. He is accused of going to a jihad training camp in Afghanistan but the indictment offers no evidence he ever engaged in terrorist activity."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/José_Padilla_(alleged_terrorist)

---

Don't be manipulated. Don't be afraid. When the time comes be sure to vote these bastards out of office. They are causing the problem, not solving it.

_____________________________

"Everything flows, nothing stands still." (Πάντα ῥεῖ καὶ οὐδὲν μένει) - Heraclitus

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RE: Terrorist Threat = Propaganda - 8/14/2006 1:58:41 AM

Chaingang

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"Don't mess with my flight plans"
Aug. 13, 2006. 09:42 AM, David Olive for the Toronto Star

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1155420635546&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154&t=TS_Home

The mass media rapidly embraced the storyline fed them that morning. The BBC, CNN, CBC Newsworld and other all-news broadcasters covered scarcely anything but the narrowly averted catastrophe throughout the day. And a friend of mine in a Toronto newsroom reported that "the editors' hair is on fire. They're trying to cover every conceivable angle of this story."

Funny thing, but the general public wasn't buying it. Thousands of ordinary folks posted their thoughts on Web forums set up by the BBC, The New York Times and other news outlets to monitor reaction. And that reaction was surprisingly mundane and cynical.

...

David Wright, a New York Times online contributor, said, "I wish either the U.S. or U.K. government had enough credibility to make me believe that this is not just another political charade, conveniently timed for the U.S. election in November. The Bushies in particular have a history of turning tiny groups of unhappy Muslims into supposed al Qaeda operatives, later to drop all charges down to some meaningless petty offence."

(This is indeed true of the so-called "Lackawana Six," arrested near Buffalo several years ago and imprisoned for attending al Qaeda training camps with no evidence of their having plotted any mischief; and of a Miami group arrested last year for their designs on destroying Chicago's Sears Tower, but with no evidence it had the means to do so. Both incidents were initially ballyhooed by U.S. homeland security officials. There are at least four similar cases of overblown security "coups" in the U.K.)

...

It seemed to me last Thursday that this sanguine populist reaction was, well, nuts. But within 36 hours, British authorities had released one of its 22 captured suspects and had yet to lay formal charges against any of the others ? rather odd, given that the probe into their alleged activities had been going on for the better part of a year.

Within a day, the mass-murder attempt had slipped to the No. 2 item on BBC broadcasts and by Saturday had already lost its "above-the-fold" status in most major newspapers in Europe and North America. The story, it appeared, didn't have legs, as they say in Hollywood.

...

An early hint that the curious popular response to "8/10" was a manifestation of public distrust of officialdom came in a midday Thursday interview on National Public Radio. An intelligence official, unnamed but widely quoted all morning, had said that this latest plot "is really, really serious. This is the real deal ? honestly." Which prompted an U.S. academic on an NPR panel discussion to ask, "So then, all the previous warnings have been false? The Code Orange alerts didn't mean anything? How are people supposed to believe their government officials when, five years after 9/11, they suddenly come up with what they call a `real' warning. It's absurd."

...

Echoing that sentiment was a BBC correspondent who wrote, "Is it me or do these major security alerts always arise when the government is putting across yet another `Loss of freedom to fight the terrorist threat' messages? The very fact that this thought enters my mind tells you everything about how their culture of lies and spin has distorted our perception of the reality of any situation."

...

"I am saddened by my reaction to the news of this thwarted plot," writes BBC contributor Anne Scott. "I have become so desensitized to violence, to fear, to terror, to people killing people all around the world, that a massive effort to intentionally murder hundreds of men, women and children feels like just another day at the office."

----

Well, that's an abridged version - follow the link for the full comment. It's very solid in my view.

_____________________________

"Everything flows, nothing stands still." (Πάντα ῥεῖ καὶ οὐδὲν μένει) - Heraclitus

(in reply to Chaingang)

Post #: 9

RE: Terrorist Threat = Propaganda - 8/14/2006 3:53:56 AM

philosophy

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...the alleged terrorists are still just that. Alleged. Until evidence is put before a court they have to remain just 'alleged'. To do anything else is to put ourselves outside the law, and that puts us on the same side as any terrorists.

(in reply to Chaingang)

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RE: Terrorist Threat = Propaganda - 8/14/2006 4:13:09 AM

UtopianRanger

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quote:

What you have to consider is how this plays out in another few years. Remember Jose Padilla? The American "enemy combatant" held without due process of law. Well, once upon a time he was front page news too. Remember how he was building a "dirty bomb" and how everyone was scared shitless for fear of airborn plutonium? Here's the update:

This is clearly one of the most representative examples of fake-news / phony propaganda used to scare people and push their cause forward. The average citizen shoulda figured out from the onset that Padilla wasn't capable of carrying out any portion of this evil plot that he was supposedly part of.

In the last three days, I've heard two top flight British analysts and one American {Willian Arkin} make the prediction that we will see a ''dirty bomb'' false flag scenario hatched in the US before Bush leaves office.

- R

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"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton

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RE: Terrorist Threat = Propaganda - 8/14/2006 4:34:53 AM

Chaingang

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quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger
In the last three days, I've heard two top flight British analysts and one American {Willian Arkin} make the prediction that we will see a ''dirty bomb'' false flag scenario hatched in the US before Bush leaves office.

That's bullshit in at least one more way than seems obvious - that fact is that the real danger from a supposed "dirty bomb" is the conventional explosive used to set the bomb off in the first place, the plutonium content itself is predicted to have almost no long-term effect to anyone not harmed in the initial blast of such a weapon.

---

The term dirty bomb is most often used to refer to a Radiological Dispersal Device (RDD), a radiological weapon which combines radioactive material with conventional explosives. Though an RDD is designed to disperse radioactive material over a large area, the conventional explosive would likely have more immediate lethal effect than the radioactive material. At levels created from most probable sources, not enough radiation would be present to cause severe illness or death. A test explosion and subsequent calculations done by the United States Department of Energy found that assuming nothing is done to clean up the affected area and everyone stays in the affected area for 1 year, the radiation exposure would be "fairly high". However, recent analysis of the Chernobyl fallout seems to show that many people are hardly affected over 5 years and more.

Because a terrorist dirty bomb is unlikely to cause many deaths as a result of the conventional explosives, many do not consider this to be a weapon of mass destruction. Its purpose would presumably be to create psychological, not physical, harm through ignorance, mass panic, and terror. Additionally, decontamination of the affected area might require considerable time and expense, rendering affected areas partly unusable and causing some economic damage.

During the 1960s it is thought that the UK Ministry of Defence evaluated RDDs, deciding that a far better effect was achievable by simply using more high explosive in place of the radioactives. In addition, any form of weapon designed to provoke any kind of biological damage short of killing a person outright is banned under the Geneva Protocols, making the development, deployment and use by any state illegal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirty_bomb

---

I'm not saying I want plutonium dust in my breakfast cereal, I'm just saying that the whole idea of a "dirty bomb" is sort of bullshit. They either can make a nuclear weapon, or they can't - there are no meaningful half-assed equivalents there.

< Message edited by Chaingang -- 8/14/2006 4:35:37 AM >

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"Everything flows, nothing stands still." (Πάντα ῥεῖ καὶ οὐδὲν μένει) - Heraclitus

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RE: Terrorist Threat = Propaganda - 8/14/2006 5:31:22 AM

Archer

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But you seem to be forgetting the idea of the dirty bomb is not to kill but instill fear, and deny the use of the area for an extended period of time. For that it's perfectly suitable, imagine Manhatten shut down for 6-8 months what would the resulting economic fallout be? And there are some real scary targets that I won't mention but that could do huge economic damage.

I'm not a hysterical OMG the terrorists are comming, 9/11 didn't wake me up hardly at all, I was already awake, knowing it was simply a matter of time before someone hit us at home, raised on and around military bases I was kinda used to the idea that the "enemy" communist or terrorist could hit us at any time.

If one cow with mad cow can shut down the beef trade from canada to the rest of the world what happens to trade in a commodity that "could be radioactive" even if it was never i the area where the incident occured?

What happens to domestic consumption if nebraska wheat was hit? Is the american public willing to trust that their breakfast cereal wheat came from Kansas on the word of coporate america?

The US is rife with panic over scares far less threatening than this already.

(in reply to Chaingang)

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RE: Terrorist Threat = Propaganda - 8/14/2006 6:28:21 AM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

BTW, it seems to me that everyone rushing to judgment on the whole Al-Qaeda/Islamist Extremist angle in this is a kind of conspiracy nut. I aim this comment at Mercnbeth and anyone else that is overeager to lump together followers of Islam.

Chain,
What would you like, a battle of sources saying these are real Muslim terrorists versus sources that say they aren't? I read both. You know what is the deciding factor that makes the side say this is the result of Muslim terrorists? The Muslims terrorists themselves. They are eager to claim responsibility when these actions succeed. They have a stated policy that gives their goal as global Muslim religion domination. They act upon that goal in every country that they control by making any other religion illegal and prosecuting anyone found practicing any other religion other than Muslim.

You live in a world where no evidence against you is credible, making debating the issue with you impossible. Any discovered plot, foiled before going into effect is "propaganda". Any terrorist event that is successful, from the London bombing to 9/11 is a self inflicted event used for conspiratorial political purposes. To involve myself, and trying to argue with someone taking that stance would be fruitless, and I won't waste any more time in such an endeavor.

I identify all Muslims in this category because there is no evidence of any large group or any vocal Islamic leader saying otherwise. It isn't I who lump the followers of Islam together under the umbrella of terrorists. It's the followers of Islam who line up to be self-identified as such.

(in reply to Chaingang)

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RE: Terrorist Threat = Propaganda - 8/14/2006 6:56:47 AM

NorthernGent

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It is not clear what "critical" actually means in this context. The Home Secretary himself said it is precautionary. Sections of the media are explaining critical as meaning "an attack was/is imminent". There is a world of difference in these two meanings.

It is fair to say I don't have a particularly high opinion of the British establishment but I can't believe they could be stupid enough to create a PR disaster by having no firm evidence to cause such disruption. On the other side of the coin, the British authorities have recent form for bungled counter-terrorism operations (Forest Gate) and we have no idea how much pressure was exerted by the US Government to coerce the British authorities into acting - which is a point well made by Chaingang.

On balance, my estimate is there is a 70% probability they have foiled a genuine terrorist plot.

My understanding is that in such a high profile operation it is common procedure to conduct a parliamentary investigation. Until we see the outcome of this we won't know very much about what actually happened and what evidence was gathered.

If it is true some did not have passports then it's not looking good before the investigation is beyond its infancy.

Regards

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

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RE: Terrorist Threat = Propaganda - 8/14/2006 7:37:40 AM

LadyEllen

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Surely they didnt all need passports? If only half of them had passports and boarded with their explosives, thats 11 x 300ish people per plane - surely a death toll sufficient for even the most nutty nutter for a day's "work"?

Its a difficult balance we find ourselves in - whether to arrest prematurely or whether to wait until its maybe too late. Personally I'd rather arrest prematurely than have 3-4000 deaths. And for now we have to trust the authorities - and heaven help them if any of this turns out to be political manoevering.
E

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RE: Terrorist Threat = Propaganda - 8/14/2006 7:44:38 AM

Chaingang

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
And for now we have to trust the authorities - and heaven help them if any of this turns out to be political manoevering.

Yeah, gee - I forgot about that: we have to trust the authorities...because if we ever stop trusting our warmongering authorities we might achieve world peace. And we can't have that...

http://goys.cf.huffingtonpost.com/

_____________________________

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Post #: 17

RE: Terrorist Threat = Propaganda - 8/14/2006 7:56:42 AM

LadyEllen

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and whats the choice? unless we each have our own source of information on what BL and the guys at the local masjid are up to?

The government needs us alive so we can pay taxes, so you can be sure they are acting in our best interests to keep us safe and productive. Dead and injured slaves are costly.

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Post #: 18

RE: Terrorist Threat = Propaganda - 8/14/2006 8:00:35 AM

Chaingang

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
Dead and injured slaves are costly.

Tell it to the soldiers coming back from Iraq. I realize you Brits may have it better than we americans, but over here they tell the vets to basically eat it raw and swallow. It's truly shameful.

I think what you can't imagine is a world in which people are totally expendable - and that's precisely how our leaders think of us citizens, as expendable.

Believe it.

_____________________________

"Everything flows, nothing stands still." (Πάντα ῥεῖ καὶ οὐδὲν μένει) - Heraclitus

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Post #: 19

RE: Terrorist Threat = Propaganda - 8/14/2006 8:09:32 AM

missturbation

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think what you can't imagine is a world in which people are totally expendable - and that's precisely how our leaders think of us citizens, as expendable.

Hmm, now let me think. Our prime minister Tony Blair has sent our troops into a war that is not our own and our soldiers have died in it too. Now how expendable does that make our citizens?

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