RE: More Propaganda? (Full Version)

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NorthernGent -> RE: More Propaganda? (8/15/2006 4:16:00 AM)

Chaingang,

You know, at the heart of this is the very real monopolistic interest played by oil and its owners in our society.
 
Nail on the head and we will only resolve the mess we're in when, as a society, we understand this and then begin to analyse why we have allowed this to happen. Why on earth would we allow our Governments to go and slaughter people out of economic interest and face the consequences of terrorist attacks where thousands of us die? If the British and US Governments continue with their current foreign policy then the terrorist attacks we have seen are only the tip of the iceberg. So, why are we putting ourselves in danger and why are we watching and standing by while men, women and children are being blown into millions of pieces by our Governments who we elect?

I have to come back to the point I keep making - we are the problem. Blaming Bush and Blair is a get out of jail free card as we are allowing this to happen.

Regards.




LadyEllen -> RE: More Propaganda? (8/15/2006 4:36:13 AM)

Gent - I have to disagree with the statement that we are the problem.

I have to get to work - my choices are the car, the bus or the train. They all work by way of oil products. I do not have the resources to acquire my own hydrogen driven (or other) alternative to any of these modes of transport - and if I did, the infrastructure to support them is simply not there.

I didnt create the world I live in and I have only one vote every few years by which I can have any influence whatsoever on altering the world I live in. And usually, since I vote for greener policies, my vote is discounted by business interests anyway.

Meanwhile, those who do have the resources and power to change the world do nothing to do so - but I have to carry on. Your argument that we are the problem seems equivalent to saying that the people in the concentration camp are responsible for their poor living conditions and eventual death, in this context.

If our leaders took action to move us away from oil, then I'd move too. As it is, I'm stuck with it, and with the unlawful means our leaders use to acquire it. It is therefore not me who is the problem, but our leaders, or perhaps more accurately those wealthy sponsors from the oil industry who assist with their election far more than any vote I might cast.
E



NorthernGent -> RE: More Propaganda? (8/15/2006 5:21:37 AM)

LadyEllen,

The issue with transport - yes, at this point in time you have little choice but to use an oil-fuelled mode of transport. However, we are in this mess because of the exploitation of oil reserves for huge profits not because of the oil usage you mention here. We could quite easily live in a society where we use oil and other energy resources for power without the exploitation we are seeing.

I take your point about your vote being discounted but we don't live in a vacuum. We all have a role to play in the society we create. Also, the vote every four years is simply the event, it is what goes on between those four years that defines the vote/event. If we spend those four years allowing personal interest (such as personal wealth and religious allegiance) to dictate our societies then, yes, the outcome will be 55% of the electorate turning up at the ballot box and voting for more of the same.

Your point about concentration camps - unintentionally, you've reinforced my point. Concentration camp victims don't get a chance to determine their fate whereas we do.

I think your last point is where we have the real difference of opinion. My own opinion is that the tail doesn't wag the dog and they are servants to us not vice versa. We elect them and, as a society, we get the politicians we deserve. If we wait for our Governments to change policy we'll simply be left waiting. We have the power to change the way our societies are run but frankly not enough of us care because we are too busy chasing our own personal agendas. If you look back through British social history everything we have achieved has been despite our Government and it has been achieved by collective organisations such as the Trade Unions rather than individuals. We are at a similar cross-roads where we need large-scale political movements with a humanitarian and international approach to life. These movemenst exist but unfortunately not enough of us support them.

Regards



LadyEllen -> RE: More Propaganda? (8/15/2006 6:14:14 AM)

Hi Gent

I agree with you - but when the big business interests determine life and the possibility of change, and smaller parties have no chance at the ballot box because of a flawed system of voting and lack of funds, (not to mention that the media backs whomever will guarantee it most sales), what can we do? We dont even have the influence and resources to change the system so that we could have a greener party, let alone to achieve the power to change the world. I stand by my concentration camp analogy - we have no means to do anything about it, and anything we do do, has no influence whatever on our fates.

I take your point that each of us must take action. However, given that anyone in this country that puts their head above the parapet is shot down by the likes of the "News" of the World, and is received with the cynicism and distrust that all such receive by reference to the records of previous would be leaders, or else on the greener side is condemned as a hash smoking hippy anarchist by the media on behalf of the government, what do you suggest please? And that is not to mention that this country is 90% populated by apathetic people whose IQ is similar to their shoe size. You will never, ever, in a million years be able to motivate these people to put down their copy of their tabloid newspaper and do anything that doesnt involve them in being a celebrity, getting rich, having sex or getting drunk. Since we live in this form of democracy, and they are the majority, that is how the world is and ought to be, and you wont get votes by saying otherwise. We get the politicians we deserve all right.

I have to confess to a smirk on your last point about the dog and the tail. I'm afraid you seem to have understood the ideals of government, but not the reality. As the war in Iraq showed most clearly - once in power a government need not listen to anything the likes of you or I say, even if there are millions of us. And if we do ever get too influential, they can adjust economic and fiscal policy to ensure we have something a little more direct to think about, than any ideals of how we would prefer things. Not easy to run a campaign and build support when there's a thousand pound tax on email and website usage for instance, (I'm sure they have that one up their sleeves), and we put VAT on food - you'll be too poor and concentrating on getting food to think about meddling with something far beyond the mere understanding of we peasants.

Sorry to be so negative, and I really would like to think that we could change things, but after nearly 40 years in this world and having seen the harsh reality of how people really are, I really dont think that idealism has any place in getting things done. The only way to get things done is to behave as they do, get oily hands, perhaps a nice sheen of newsprint on one's lips and to bend over whenever the banks says so. The power, not the people, is the key.
E





Termyn8or -> RE: More Propaganda? (8/15/2006 6:20:43 AM)

Every time I hear the words "exist side by side" it makes me want to puke. Has anyone a globe ? Look where they are and look where we are.

We are no more responsible to support the "rights" of Moslem Women than we are charged with wiping out clitendectomy in Africa. If we simply left them alone we would just buy their oil and everybody would be,,,,,not at war.

The Bible, the Koran etc are books of stories, nothing more. Inspired, some maybe, demented, some definitely. Religion, or perhaps Man's incorrect or selective interpretation has always been the problem. Some people need religion, leaders need it to maintain control, and followers need it because they lack independent thought, a phenomenon probably caused by the religious indoctrination itself.

I remember the sarcastic piece to the effect "My neighbor did this, should he be stoned to death ?". Sarcasm yes, but to the point. When fiction rules, confusion reigns. At every turn you can see many different interpretations. For a while there they had to do their very best to fight Onanism. Actually I agree with that one, poor Onan, why couldn't he get a piece of ass ? As much as it is fun in the bondage game, looking at patents for devices to defeat the dreaded Onanism do not fall short of the absurd, the ridiculous and certainly qualify as torture devices.

This craze filtered it's way into the medical "profession" as doctors jumped on the bandwagon. We don't need a seperation of church and state, we need a seperation of church and truth, true science that is.

We also need a seperation of people. Let them be how they are, take care of our own business and mind whether WE are doing right or wrong, rather than worrying about the rest of the world. We have not been appointed nor annointed to be the saviours of the world, and indeed we cannot. It is time to stop doing what does not work, but it really may be too late.

Moslem supporters of these crackpots ? Wait until they come for your daughter to get stoned for adultery. Should've taught her better huh ? Supporters of those neo-cons who need to impose western rule on those fanatics ? Wait until they draft your son.

I suppose if we really looked under every rock we could find societies, or more aptly tribes that do incredible atrocities to each other. Since when did it become our job to fix this all over the globe. The ridiculous neo-cons, with GWB as second leutenant have somehow gotten the idea that they were elected rulers of the whole world. First of all GWB didn't get elected, and I don't remember all that many foreign ballots. Isn't it nice, US citizens, to be in the unique position to elect the leader of the whole world, oops, that's as if our votes counted. OK, isn't it nice for our very own supreme court to decide who shall be the leader of the whole world ?

The only people who have a problem with the religious fanatical Moslems is a country in which slavery is still legal, a country who either sponsors or looks rthe other way as White slavery and Kibbutzes spring up from time to time. A country that, like it's big brother bully, the US, wants to have it's dirty little fingers in everybody's pies.

They are just as nasty as the ones they hate, and want to eradicate. They preach equality and egalitarian virtues to the world while imposing the worst of racial discrimination to those from whom they stole their land. They call it winning their independence, which is about like how we won our independence from the Native Americans.

I say 1948 was a very bad year for morality, we can no more expect the Jews to give up Israel than we can give the US back to the Natives. While we cannot put up any barriers to protect our neighborhoods from undesirable of any race or creed, they put up walls, walls that kill by keeping Palestinians from necessities. You think the rest of the Arab world is not watching ?

And all built on lies. The Bible, what is supposed to be the most important book on Earth, is fraught with contradictions. I suspect the same of the Koran. The Talmud is a whole other story, you don't even want to read the Talmud. Let's just say there are less contradictions.

And for some reason the money keeps flowing in one direction. One thing has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, loyalty is weightless, because when you send it up, it does not come back down. This is true of everything, business, country, religion, everything. You can give your all, even your life, to be subsequently discarded, or "expended". You are a resource, nothing more. Perhaps worth more than a grain of sand, but still quantified by the same measurements.

The quasi-Christians are just as bad as the genital mutilator in Africa, or the adulterer stoner in an Arab country. They vote for Bush because Kerry is a baby killer. I must have missed that. Perhaps it was a news flash available only at my ex-bosses church. It seems that because Bush is anti-abortion, he is allowed to commit murder. Basically it seems to be "wait until they're born, it's alot more fun". I can find no other logical explanation, can you ?

One religion I would consider would be Odinism. They seemed to want to have their community, and have friendly trade with all, and mind their own business. Actually labelled as a hate group now for reasons I can't seem to figure out, Odinism seems to be the closest thing I can find to the intent of the Founding Fathers. I also notice that in the Constitution it says "Creator", not "God". Could they have chosen the word Creator because they got tired of being told who God is ? Say it ain't so. The Odinist's creed preaches to be fair with everyone and take care of business. There was no evangelism, and the holy wars came to them, not the other way around.

Ask yourself why Christmas is on Dec 25th, and who said when Easter will be ? These dates were chosen by those who needed to appease the 'pagans', lest incur their wrath.

Yes, if these dates were so important they would be etched in stone somewhere right ? All religion has been bullshit since the dawn of time. Even Odinism had their Norns, and I am not even all that interested in finding out just who these mythical creatures were, but the rest of their creed is based on solid ground, so to speak. Symbolism, yes, fooling themselves that things are better off after death, no. A friend of mine calls this nihilistic.

Of course he read a bit too much Neitzche, which is another form of insanity. Even so, he had a better grip on life than most. Only problem with him is I had to introduce his head to my TV set because he drank too much whiskey. I knew the TV would come in handy someday. His blood is still on it. That does not make us disagree.

Any time pople are goaded into preparing for an afterlife, they take time away from preparing for life. This is here and now. There is no forgiveness, you did what you did and I did what I did. Nobody knows what happens when you die, and if anyone says they do, RUN.

Speaking of these Moslem nuts, let's take a poll, which are supported by the axis of good ? (that being the US, Britan and Israel). Which are supported by their People ?

Found in some song lyrics-'The Lord uses the good ones, the bad ones use the Lord". I think the guy was onto something. Anybody can take a book full of contradictions and pick and choose the parts that fit his immediate needs, and that is what is happening, or more aptly, has happened.

What really gets me is that through all the years of supposed evolution people still fall for it. We haven't really learned a thing (present company excluded). People are still sheep, and are easily led because they have not found their own direction in life.

That being said, I still agree with the Christian doctrine of forgiveness, but on a personal level. You forgive them in your own mind because harboring hate is very unhelthy, you need to let go. At another time, you may forgive them on a public level, that is if they express true remorse, and maybe even try to make amends. And to me, that is MY choice, not God's.

This 'praise be to Allah' is another bunch of shit. Giving thanks, bullshit. YOU worked for, or stole or whatever, what you have. When you externalize your successes, that gives you an excuse to externalize your shortcomings. This makes improvement of one's self unnecessary, because it will all be better when we die.

The only thing worse that I can think of is dying for the Emperor, like the Kamikazees (sp). Just how does one get that kind of power over people ? Damn, just give me that and I promise I won't fuck it up like just about everybody in the past. All it takes is a bit of restraint. A bit less greed.

I suspect that Shintoism, like any religion, knows to get them while they're young. You are raised to believe that a Man is a God. This is lying to a child and is reprehensible to say the least, I would call it criminal. I don't think anyone under the age of 12 should be allowed in a church, or anywhere near the Bible, the Koran, the Torah, the Talmud, anything of the sort. Let them learn the real world first, then they can make their own decisions.

It's not going to happen is it :-(

T



LadyEllen -> RE: More Propaganda? (8/15/2006 6:48:30 AM)

Wow termyn8or - a bit all over the place there - but I think (at least) you made some good points, the best of which was "When you externalize your successes, that gives you an excuse to externalize your shortcomings" - very accurately and concisely stated - did you write it yourself? (very impressed if you did)

I would agree wholeheartedly with you that Odinism/Asatru as our ethnic Germanic religion is the only real religion for us. That most of us are reverting naturally to it in the absence of church attendance indicates how right it is for us. OK, so most people are not giving blot, but their way of life, their views, speech and deeds is enough. The day we finally throw off that which was imposed on us will be a great day indeed, and allow us all to see right from wrong without arguing over some scripture from a foreign and ancient culture.

However I have to disagree with you about interference to stop the likes of female circumcision, sharia and the like. I dont think my culture has any right to impose its standards on other cultures, but these things should not be protected by the PC attitude of cultural diversity - they are human rights abuses pure and simple. If we have no right to interfere with the internal affairs of other countries, then we should have let Saddam alone and he should not be on trial now - he did nothing to break the law of Iraq after all. It is my judgement and that of millions of others that whilst we wouldnt necessarily want another people to adopt our way of life, human rights abuses are crimes which must be prevented if only out of sentimental sympathy with their victims. I would rather my son fought and died to prevent such abuses, than for some rich guy's oil shares - and I would rather use our power as the (for now) most powerful culture on earth to eradicate these abuses, than secure further reliance on an energy source which strengthens those who perpetrate such abuses.
E




NorthernGent -> RE: More Propaganda? (8/15/2006 8:31:52 AM)

Hi LadyEllen,

This reminds me of exactly the same conversation I had with MeatCleaver in that we agree we have a problem with a corrupt Government and Establishment but we disagree on the solution.

We do have power. Political movements form out of the realisation that collective power is everything and can cause change. For me power is not the issue. Even today, as a society, we are exercising our power because we are getting what we want in Blair and his politics.

I believe that we will see a new age of politics. We have various parties that hold humanitarian principles and we still have a large section of the Labour Party that believes in Socialist and Trade Unionist ideals. There is a fair chance that the day will come when all the current parties that share humanitarian ideals will form an alliance to represent their humanitarian interests and change the political landscape. If this were to happen it would form a base for collective power and the ability to gain further support from those who don't understand the way the world works but once educated would be against the exploitation we are seeing.

This is not dissimilar to the formation of the Labour Party who formed from various interest groups in order to tackle the problem of exploitation. As a result all sorts of gains and concessions were achieved.

Regards




Dauric -> RE: More Propaganda? (8/15/2006 8:49:20 AM)

Just give me my goddamn electric car!

GM built one, the EV-1, and it worked just fine. They were even leasing the things. Then they pulled the plug on the program, recalled all the EV-1 and destroyed them. GM claimed they were losing money on the project. Probably cost them more to recall the models and destroy thrm than it would have to just sell the bloody things off.

There's a book, "The Rise and Fall of the EV-1" if you're interested in the problems of getting new transportation technology to the market.

$0.02,

Dauric.



LadyEllen -> RE: More Propaganda? (8/15/2006 8:55:15 AM)

Hi Gent

I hope your prediction comes true.

E



Mercnbeth -> RE: More Propaganda? (8/15/2006 11:05:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
I agree with those making the point that this has very little to do with religion.


Maybe not on the West side of the war, but it is the prime factor from the Islamic side based upon the statements of the leaders previously quoted.


quote:

Maybe some Americans support their Government because they see Christianity and Islam as unable to exist side by side but in terms of those who wield power the motives are purely economic. For example, in 1953 Iran attempted to install a democracy and the US Government had a large part in overthrowing this democracy as they weren't considered to be on-side. Today, the US Government has a strong relationship with the Saudis who are as fundamentalist a regime as you can find. Thus, progressive nation building aimed at moving away from fundamentalism does not concern the US Government.


Contradicting yourself in one paragraph isn't a good way to make a point. It was US effort that put the Shah in power in Iran contrary to a "democratic" movement, but we didn't think it important to do the same in Saudi Arabia?  Because democracy failed in Iran it was the fault of the US, because the idea of democracy never got off the ground in Saudi Arabia it was the US fault. What was the difference and why? Back in 1953 oil was the same in both places. And how do you account for the toppling of the Shah? Wasn't the US abandonment of the Shah by President Carter contributory and the result being a fundamentalist regime at least comparable to Saudi Arabia?

quote:

The one common denominator of US foreign policy in the Middle East is that when any one nation has appeared to be strengthening the US Government has prevented it and made it a strategic objective to divide and conquer the Middle East to maintain a grip on the oil in the region.
Then why does OPEC exist? Why in the '70s did the group grow to become the most influential aspect of global economics? Was it to the "best interest of the US Government? I know you hate talking about today, but why with all the wealth is the common man and woman in the area still devoid of hope for their future? Why is receiving $25,000 for the life of your "martyred" child the best retirement plan? 

quote:

Also, it is not helpful to paint today's Iran as typical of Islam because it is not - as anyone who has been to the Middle East will testify.
 Been there. Iran is a country. It's leaders are typical of Islam as Islam wants to be represented. Where's the challenge to that? An Amsterdam newspaper published a few pictures resulting in Islamic outrage and death. Iran, sponsors a cartoon parody of the death camps during WWII. One an independent newspaper, the other government sponsored. Same to you? Do you expect and will you excuse western or Israeli riots as was the Muslim responds to Amsterdam?

quote:

TEHRAN, Iran -- An exhibition of cartoons about the Holocaust opened this week, reflecting Iran's response to last year's Muslim outrage over a caricature of the Prophet Muhammad in a Danish newspaper.The display, showing 204 entries from Iran and abroad, was strongly influenced by the views of Iran's hard-line President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who drew widespread condemnation last year for calling the Holocaust a "myth" and saying Israel should be destroyed.One cartoon by Indonesian Tony Thomdean shows the Statue of Liberty holding a book on the Holocaust in its left hand and giving a Nazi-style salute with the other.
Source: http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1107AP_Iran_Holocaust_Cartoons.html

quote:

Thus, an argument based on this logic is completely flawed. 

Based upon your perspective maybe. But an open mind sees and believes what the Islamic leaders say and base decisions and opinions on it. Where is the logic flaw of accepting the position of an elected leader of a theocracy as the actual plan for that country? Why is it illogical to consider the lack of any opposition from any other large and vocal Islamic source a statement that the position represented by this leader is also their position?

A flaw is that through the process of "civilizing" the west we have lost the ability to consider barbarism. Applying civilized traits to a people publicly advertising and functioning in their barbarism daily seems more logically flawed.



meatcleaver -> RE: More Propaganda? (8/15/2006 1:24:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

The one common denominator of US foreign policy in the Middle East is that when any one nation has appeared to be strengthening the US Government has prevented it and made it a strategic objective to divide and conquer the Middle East to maintain a grip on the oil in the region.

Also, it is not helpful to paint today's Iran as typical of Islam because it is not - as anyone who has been to the Middle East will testify. Thus, an argument based on this logic is completely flawed. 

Regards


I don't think the evidence fits that the US is always malicious, though I have little time for this administration and its policies and strategies don't seem to add up. There are a lot of parallels between Britain at the height of its power and the USA. Similar motives and fuck ups but set in different historical periods. Now compare these two empires with other empires such as the French, Spanish, Portugese, Russian, Japanese, all the way through history back to the Mongol, Persian, Egyptian, Roman, whichever you care to choose and take into account the thinking of the time, I would argue that weighing the accounts of most empires and the scales tip firmly into the negative but I do believe the USA and British empires whilst not innocent, have done a lot of good too. The other thing is, if there is a power vacuum it will be filled and I can think of a lot of powers I would rather not fill the vacuum before the US.

Iran wants its view of Islam to be the typical Islam of the middle east. While I readily criticize Israel because I think Israel is wrong in its actions and in this war, stupidly harmed itself more than Hezzbollah, I'm not blind to the rotten governments of the Arab world. Solving the Israeli-Palestinian problem will expose the Arab governments as the cancerous institutions they really are.



NorthernGent -> RE: More Propaganda? (8/15/2006 1:39:08 PM)

Islam is a religion practiced by a huge number of countries. Why are you applying the comments of the leader of one country and generalising across the entire Islamic world? What purpose does this serve? It is like saying that all Americans are Christian fundamentalists. What is the point? It doesn't add anything.

What exactly is your point in your second paragraph? There is no contradiction. Let me make it simpler for you.

1) The US Government is currently in bed with a fundamentalist regime.

2) The US Government/CIA had a major hand in overthrowing the first democratically elected regime in the Middle East.

3) Conclusion = the US Government is not interested in fundamentalism or the spread of democracy i.e. there are other factors driving US policy.

What exactly do you mean with you quip "democracy failed in Iran so it is the fault of the US"? The CIA overthrew Iran's democratically elected premier Mohammed Mossadeq - who's fault is it then?

My point about Saudi is not to accuse the US Government of preventing democracy so you have completely misunderstood - my point is they are on good terms with the most fundamentalist of fundamentalist regimes so where exactly is this drive to eradicate the world of fundamentalism and spread democracy?

How can you say the Iranian leader is typical of Islam and accuse others of not having an open mind. It's pure comedy.

So Iran's leaders are typical of Islam - if this is the case then you will be able to post your links of all the Islamic leaders of the various Islamic countries who have made the same claims as the Iranian President.

The Iranian Foreign Ministry said a few days later that they would respect UN charter commitments, and that the comment did not imply an intention to attack Israel. Also, the shi'ite muslims that the Iranian Government represents are a minority in the wider muslim world. Also, the Iranian President did not actually say he wanted Israel wiped off the face of the map because the phrase "wiped off the face off the map" is an English idiom that does not exist in Persian. He actually said he wanted the state of Israel to collapse. There are literally tens of Islamic countries with a far more liberal outlook than Iran but if you feel the need to use the exception and claim it as the rule then go for it.

Why on earth do you think I would support a cartoon paradoy of the death camps? I mean, why do you feel the need to bring this into a discussion on whether or not the Iranian leader is typical of Islam? It is a common tactic of yours to move the discussion elsewhere rather than defend your position which is a sure sign that you can't defend your position. Stick to what is being discussed - feel free to post your links on comments from other Islamic leaders that are in tune with the Iranian President.

Your comment "we in the west have lost the ability to consider barbarism". FFS - there is barbarism in the country I live - paedophilia, rape, murder, cannibalism etc. Also, we are all aware of the barbarism of state terrorism, suicide bombings, massacres etc so I have no idea where you're coming from on this and, to be frank, speaking of cultural and religious divides we are that far apart we're two ends of a spectrum.

Regards





Mercnbeth -> RE: More Propaganda? (8/15/2006 2:13:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
Islam is a religion practiced by a huge number of countries. Why are you applying the comments of the leader of one country and generalising across the entire Islamic world? What purpose does this serve? It is like saying that all Americans are Christian fundamentalists. What is the point? It doesn't add anything.
Besides being inaccurate, it would be challenged by many. Many here on CM for that matter. If I saw a similar challenge by Islam, I'd retract the statement.

quote:

What exactly is your point in your second paragraph? There is no contradiction. Let me make it simpler for you.
My point about Saudi is not to accuse the US Government of preventing democracy so you have completely misunderstood - my point is they are on good terms with the most fundamentalist of fundamentalist regimes so where exactly is this drive to eradicate the world of fundamentalism and spread democracy?

Your position would indicate that the US is not behind the eradication of fundamentalism and the spread of democracy. Are you taking the position that they should, starting with the Saudi regime? You are in support of an American driven drive to remove the royal family and install a democratically elected government like Iran? I'd support that too.

quote:

How can you say the Iranian leader is typical of Islam and accuse others of not having an open mind. It's pure comedy. So Iran's leaders are typical of Islam - if this is the case then you will be able to post your links of all the Islamic leaders of the various Islamic countries who have made the same claims as the Iranian President.
I don't think how Islam is represented by Iran is comical I think it's tragic. But it must be correct due to the lack of any conflicting Islamic position. It's not my responsibility to call for vocal Islamic opposition but I would welcome any opportunity to hear or see it. If it were not the case, the celebrations within the Muslim world would not occur when a Muslim son/daughter kills themselves for the Islamic cause. If you find that comic, I pity you.

quote:

Why on earth do you think I would support a cartoon paradoy of the death camps? I mean, why do you feel the need to bring this into a discussion on whether or not the Iranian leader is typical of Islam?
If you took the time to read the link it would show the unilateral participation among the Islamic world. Again pointing to the Islam looking to Iran as it's standard-bearer.

quote:

It is a common tactic of yours to move the discussion elsewhere rather than defend your position which is a sure sign that you can't defend your position. Stick to what is being discussed - feel free to post your links on comments from other Islamic leaders that are in tune with the Iranian President.
I wonder why as the contrary point you haven't posted any.

quote:

Your comment "we in the west have lost the ability to consider barbarism". FFS - there is barbarism in the country I live - paedophilia, rape, murder, cannibalism etc. Also, we are all aware of the barbarism of state terrorism, suicide bombings, massacres etc so I have no idea where you're coming from on this and, to be frank, speaking of cultural and religious divides we are that far apart we're two ends of a spectrum.
Barbaric people live in both our countries. Yet in only one country is barbarism not only supported but encouraged by the state and the state religion, Iran and Islam. I find that distinction worthy of noting



cloudboy -> RE: More Propaganda? (8/15/2006 2:22:01 PM)

In other words, the prognosis for peace is not good.



meatcleaver -> RE: More Propaganda? (8/15/2006 2:35:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


In other words, the prognosis for peace is extremely bad.


Unfortunately, yes. An imagination infected with ideology limits ones ability to objectively analyse the world and we live in a world of too much ideology. The west is as ideologically driven as Islam and ideology needs an enemy in order to exist. Make peace with or vanquish your enemy and you have to find a new enemy to justify your ideology and support your view of the world.



NorthernGent -> RE: More Propaganda? (8/16/2006 5:10:53 AM)

Mercnbeth,

If you believe that the leader of Iran represents Islam and don't feel it necessary to prove your point with examples from the leaders of other Islamic countries then good luck with this sentiment.

Paragraph 2, again you are drifting from the discussion. This discussion is about propaganda and the real intentions of the US Government. As said, they are in bed with a fundamentalist regime so this propaganda regarding the spread of democracy is simply propaganda. Whether or not I believe the US should overthrow the Saudi regime is a different discussion for a different day and is irrelevant here.

Paragraph 3, again you're drifting from what I'm saying. What I find comical is YOUR ability to take the actions of one leader and use that as the basis for a sweeping generalisation on an entire religion/culture (please note, this is directed at your thought prcoess rather than anything going on in the Middle East).

If you believe that the actions of the US and British Governments that have murdered over 100,000 Iraqis is not barbaric then again good luck with your thought process.

Regards






Mercnbeth -> RE: More Propaganda? (8/16/2006 6:05:15 AM)

quote:

If you believe that the leader of Iran represents Islam and don't feel it necessary to prove your point with examples from the leaders of other Islamic countries then good luck with this sentiment.


You've strengthened the argument by not being able to produce any evidence to the contrary. Just as the Muslim leaders provide evidence that the statement is accurate by never leading their followers in any opposition. Thanks for proving the point so strongly.

quote:

If you believe that the actions of the US and British Governments that have murdered over 100,000 Iraqis is not barbaric then again good luck with your thought process.


Well, you've gone over to the 'tin-hat' conspiracy side with this statement. Proved inaccurate so many times by so many people it's a caricature image trait of a person who does not let facts get in the way of their position. Oh well, it was a nice debate while it lasted.

Good luck living in your dimension.



Chaingang -> RE: More Propaganda? (8/16/2006 6:55:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
Well, you've gone over to the 'tin-hat' conspiracy side with this statement. Proved inaccurate so many times by so many people it's a caricature image trait of a person who does not let facts get in the way of their position. Oh well, it was a nice debate while it lasted.


Sure the numbers can be disputed, but why should anyone unquestioningly believe a competing source over those supplied in so many conflicts by Lancet? This is selective reasoning at its finest: we use the Lancet numbers when they serve our political purposes, but reject them when those same numbers undermine our objectives and make us look bad.

How boring.



philosophy -> RE: More Propaganda? (8/16/2006 8:58:13 AM)

"Yet in only one country is barbarism not only supported but encouraged by the state and the state religion, Iran and Islam. I find that distinction worthy of noting"

...sorry, but coming from a country with a free-at-the-point-of-delivery health service, i find it barbaric that the richest nation on the planet seems to happily live with the idea that their children can fail or not to get an organ transplant purely because of the economic status of their parents. Barbarism is something of a moveable feast.




Mercnbeth -> RE: More Propaganda? (8/16/2006 9:28:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
"Yet in only one country is barbarism not only supported but encouraged by the state and the state religion, Iran and Islam. I find that distinction worthy of noting"

...sorry, but coming from a country with a free-at-the-point-of-delivery health service, i find it barbaric that the richest nation on the planet seems to happily live with the idea that their children can fail or not to get an organ transplant purely because of the economic status of their parents. Barbarism is something of a moveable feast.


A new topic Health Care?

Philosophy,
Having the misfortune of being injured in the UK I am aware of the "free" health service provided. It's pretty barbaric.

Maybe you are not aware, but the same universal heath coverage IS available in the US. The Consolidated Omnibus Reconciliation Act (COBRA) passed in 1985 specifically prohibits denying medical treatment due to the person's lack of ability to pay or medical coverage. It is illegal to deny necessary treatment. As a homeless, street person if you stumble into an emergency room and get diagnosed that you need a new liver; you get put on the list.

The issue with US Health coverage isn't for this type treatment. However I'd agree that the process for the homeless or the poor is barbaric. The issue will never be resolved as long as the AMA controls the US health care industry. There may be pressure coming from both sides for the first time. The COBRA laws have bankrupted most of the Emergency Rooms in Souther California because the ER is now the first point of treatment for things as basic as a cold or a child's ear infection. If you have the misfortune to need emergency care, without having a bone sticking out, you'll have a 6 hour wait due to this fact. The situation doesn't work for the hospitals, doctors, or the patients.

If you want to read any regarding the law: http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic860.htm

All that said, and agreeing the process is barbaric, the "movable feast" of Muslim barbarism is not comparable. Stonings for infidelity, using industrial shredders on live people, hanging young girls for having sex, and raising children for the purpose of being human smart bombs, are unique to the Muslim world in 2006.

To me the ability to do this in the name of Islam defines barbarism:
quote:

The Alis planned to use 6-month-old son Zain's baby bottle as a liquid bomb, blowing themselves and their child up, along with hundreds of others aboard the flight.
Source: http://www.nypost.com/news/worldnews/brit_baby_bomb_beasts_worldnews_andy_soltis.htm



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