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Slave Abuse & Interference - 8/16/2006 7:58:07 PM

Passion357

Posts: 481
Joined: 8/7/2005
Status: offline

Greetings, Masters,

Where do you draw the line between slave training/teaching and abuse?
I know there are many Masters out there who refuse to interfere with the inner workings of a Master slave relationship. I understand the concerns of interfereing with a Master and his slave.
However, where is the line drawn? When do you consider what he is doing wrong and see the need to stand up and tell him he is crossing a line that brings you, as a Man, as a fellow Master, to a point you feel the slave is being abused?

Goreans- especially Goreans,

As a Gorean Master, when is it time to tell a fellow Gorean that he need take caution in his dealing with his slave? When is it right to step up and face him with your concerns? Is there a point where you feel a fellow Master has breached the All Gorean Contract that is Honour?

My concerns are genuine and passionate and meant to be taken as such, not disrespectfully at all. I just felt I had to know.
Thank you ALL for reading this. Thank you to those of you who take the time to respond.

Well Wishes,
~mate'~

Post #: 1

RE: Slave Abuse & Interference - 8/16/2006 8:08:34 PM

SirDarkside357

Posts: 393
Joined: 8/7/2005
Status: offline

Leave it to you to ask a question on such a "touchy" subject... at least to me it is. I am one of those who feel that the relationship between a Master and his slave is no one's business but theirs. The only time I would get involved, unless asked to by the Master, is when I think the slave was being kept in the relationship by some sort of force. After all it has to be a consenting relationship. If a Master is being "cruel" to his slave, she can walk. If she doesn't, then it's her choice, and I will stay out of it.

Be Well,
Darkside

(in reply to Passion357)

Post #: 2

RE: Slave Abuse & Interference - 8/16/2006 8:17:53 PM

Passion357

Posts: 481
Joined: 8/7/2005
Status: offline

Greetings, Master,

I understand your stance on the situation. (as I have heard it a million and one times

) But speaking on a Gorean setting, does the slave not have to "beg" to be released? If the Master is abusing or abusive, he'll surely say no..........

An addition to my OP, and a more to the point question:
When is it right for a Master to step up and defend the slave?
If a slave does it...she'll just be ignored or pushed aside...

Well Wishes,
~mate'~

(in reply to SirDarkside357)

Post #: 3

RE: Slave Abuse & Interference - 8/16/2006 8:24:22 PM

SirDarkside357

Posts: 393
Joined: 8/7/2005
Status: offline

Just because some abusive blow hard that calls himself a Master says no, does not mean a slave has to accept that answer. A true Master, in my opinion, wouldn't have the aformentioned problem.

As for the stepping in question..... If a friend was having a problem, I'd talk to him about it, as a friend. That isn't getting between a Master and his slave, that's just being a good friend. If he wasn't a friend....none of my business. But as always, that's just my opinion.

< Message edited by SirDarkside357 -- 8/16/2006 8:27:59 PM >

(in reply to Passion357)

Post #: 4

RE: Slave Abuse & Interference - 8/16/2006 8:31:14 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Passion357

Greetings, Masters,

Where do you draw the line between slave training/teaching and abuse?

Unfortunately due to the nature of what "abuse" is- it is left entirely in the hands of the abused. If they feel they have been abused, then they must treat it as so. And frankly, that's when abuse has happened- when the person feels so.

Might have a harder time convincing a jury, but that's nothing to do with how they themselves cope.

quote:

When do you consider what he is doing wrong and see the need to stand up and tell him he is crossing a line that brings you, as a Man, as a fellow Master, to a point you feel the slave is being abused?

If they felt a need to hide what was going on, if I felt them withdraw into themselves, and if they were a good friend of mine, I'd talk to them about it and see how they felt.

They really are the ones with the power to allow the abusive relationship to continue or to end it. You can talk to them, let them know their options, be there for them if you can- but otherwise, they have to make the choice for themselves.

I also think the abuse word gets WAY overused in the scene by scorned women who ended up with a dork asshole.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Passion357)

Post #: 5

RE: Slave Abuse & Interference - 8/16/2006 8:37:56 PM

SavageEu

Posts: 197
Joined: 7/8/2006
Status: offline

I have been in situations where someone elses slave asked me about how to handle things her Master does. I am very reluctant to step in on situations like that since I know that I would be rather irked if someone interfered with me and my Pet. Really if the slave thinks its abuse then it is. After all she's (or he) is the one enduring it. If it goes beyond what she thought she would have to endure and she can't bring it up with her Master (sounds like the communication has completely died in that case) then I think she should asked to be released.. of course as others have pointed out that is just a formailty. Unless he is willing to break the law and face charges she can just walk at any time.

Though not being Gorean I may be taking too 'soft' of an approach.

_____________________________

"Yes, Dorian, you will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you have never had the courage to commit"

--The Picture of Dorian Gray.

(in reply to SirDarkside357)

Post #: 6

RE: Slave Abuse & Interference - 8/16/2006 8:41:02 PM

bluelace001

Posts: 62
Joined: 6/7/2006
Status: offline

Unfortunately, those who get abused may be too scared to leave, or feel they have no way out. It does happen, so would the dominants then still sit back and say nothing? I ask because i know in the old gaurd, from what Master has described to me, dominants basiclly police each other. (now you all got me curiuos)
bluelace_V
{property of Viper_001}

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 7

RE: Slave Abuse & Interference - 8/16/2006 8:43:45 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluelace001
Unfortunately, those who get abused may be too scared to leave, or feel they have no way out. It does happen, so would the dominants then still sit back and say nothing? I ask because i know in the old gaurd, from what Master has described to me, dominants basiclly police each other. (now you all got me curiuos)
bluelace_V
{property of Viper_001}

I'm afraid that nothing by virtue of someone calling themselves or someone else calling themselves a dominant puts them in a suitable position to end a relationship with an abuser- although I know plenty who are more than willing to try and be that particular knight in shining armor.

If a person is unwelcome at an event, either for personal reasons or for breaking the rules, then they can certainly exclude said dom if they wish. But as I said- if I were their close friend, I would make them aware of their options and support, but they would have to make the choice for themselves.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to bluelace001)

Post #: 8

RE: Slave Abuse & Interference - 8/16/2006 8:52:41 PM

SavageEu

Posts: 197
Joined: 7/8/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluelace001

Unfortunately, those who get abused may be too scared to leave, or feel they have no way out. It does happen, so would the dominants then still sit back and say nothing? I ask because i know in the old gaurd, from what Master has described to me, dominants basiclly police each other. (now you all got me curiuos)
bluelace_V
{property of Viper_001}

Well, in this case, if the sub felt it was abuse and felt she could only confide in me I would tell her to leave. I am not sure if confronting her Master would be a good thing unless she had already left especially if she lived with him. Naturally its a bit harder since the sub may not have her own money in which case arrangments could still be made. It really is a touchy subject but if it has gotten bad enough that the sub can not confide in her Master I am not sure if that can be repaired. If I knew the Master personally I would as SirDarkSide said, talk to him as a friend and bring it up.

_____________________________

"Yes, Dorian, you will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you have never had the courage to commit"

--The Picture of Dorian Gray.

(in reply to bluelace001)

Post #: 9

RE: Slave Abuse & Interference - 8/16/2006 8:56:59 PM

Lashra

Posts: 4900
Joined: 2/9/2006
Status: offline

If I saw another Dominant beating a sub/slave in the face with his/her fist until said sub/slave was on the ground, bloodied and the sub/slave screaming STOP, someone help me! Yep I'd step over and ask what the hell was going on.

If a slave came to me and said they were having problems, that certain aspects of the relationship were more then she/he could take. I'd refer her/him back to the Owner, if I felt their life wasn't in jeopardy. SPEAK UP to your owner and tell her/him I CAN'T take this and if its a deal breaker prepare to move on. Don't stay with someone who isn't fulfilling their part of the relationship, who is abusing you, or who is making you miserable. If I felt it was a life or death situation, I would certainly try to help that slave get to a mental health facility/hospital so that they could get the help that they need.

Life is too SHORT to be miserable. I realise alot of truly abused people can't move on, that they truly need HELP from a mental health facility. I believe Owners need to be held accountable if they are truly abusing a slave.

~Lashra

_____________________________

“We can never judge the lives of others, because each person knows only their own pain and renunciation. It's one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path.”

(in reply to bluelace001)

Post #: 10

RE: Slave Abuse & Interference - 8/16/2006 8:59:11 PM

CrappyDom

Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline

I have no problem stepping in and have done so, however, I see far more drama than abuse.

If someone had had multiple long term D/s relationships and I saw something that really squicked me I would probably write it off as WIIWD.

However, my standard for behavior with inexperienced submissives is the exact opposite. Anyone who cuts someone off from outside contact has problems. Anyone who wants to brand, mark, or tatoo someone new to the scene or at the begining of a relationship, meaning less than a year or two is an idiot.

The worst stuff is the emotional manipulation, or at least that is the most abusive stuff that is common. Dangling a collar/relationship over someone to get them to do what you want while you shop around for a better woman is pretty common.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 11

RE: Slave Abuse & Interference - 8/16/2006 10:18:08 PM

amayos

Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Passion357

Greetings, Masters,

Where do you draw the line between slave training/teaching and abuse?

I personally do not. What one does with his or her slave is not my right of concern, unless I am invited to offer my opinion by the owner. Otherwise, nothing to me, where they go, what they do or how they abide. Who am I to moralize upon how one treats property? For that is what a slave is.

(in reply to Passion357)

Post #: 12

RE: Slave Abuse & Interference - 8/16/2006 10:48:55 PM

Slipstreme

Posts: 817
Joined: 1/1/2006
Status: offline

quote:

But speaking on a Gorean setting, does the slave not have to "beg" to be released? If the Master is abusing or abusive, he'll surely say no..........

Considering that this is Earth, and not Gor, said slave could simply leave. He might step in to stop her, but ultimately it is her choice to leave, even if they are going by Gorean custom. How far someone decides to employ Gorean codes of conduct is individual to the relationship, and when someone feels one side has breached the relationship, the ability to leave is still there, even if it means breaking Gorean custom.

I haven't had much experience with people who have been abused, so I'm not sure what warning signs there are, what to look for, or how to interfere, other than encouraging said person to leave.

I would have to know for sure that there is abuse, and not simply personal issues, cause personal issues should be solved by those in the relationship. Also to note: what physically constitutes as abuse to some, is completely totally fun for others. So where to draw the line physically, I can't. I enjoy the pain too much to decide on specific acts. Heck it could have been accidental or bad form that caused whatever physically seems abuse. I guess the only way to do it is to find out if there is consent, but even that is hard to prove.

As far as my slave is concerned. Yes she is my property, and yes I will do with her as I please, but she is the only person on Earth I treat as property, but my most loved of all posessions. Other slaves/ submissives I consider as humans with unalienable rights to their own personal safety, and would step in to help if I knew how to, and if I knew they needed help. Although I would rather know both sides of the story before I do anything.

< Message edited by Slipstreme -- 8/16/2006 10:49:17 PM >

_____________________________

Living the Dichotomy

Painslut? How about "Endorphin Junkie"?

For information about "the furry thing" please check out my profile journal entry for: 1/17/2006

Alpha of a leather family of four. Master to the slave z.

(in reply to amayos)

Post #: 13

RE: Slave Abuse & Interference - 8/17/2006 11:52:30 AM

indigo302

Posts: 127
Joined: 4/28/2004
From: Delaware
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos

I personally do not. What one does with his or her slave is not my right of concern, unless I am invited to offer my opinion by the owner. Otherwise, nothing to me, where they go, what they do or how they abide. Who am I to moralize upon how one treats property? For that is what a slave is.

That slave also happens to be a living breathing human being.

How would you feel if you took that stance with a slave, and later she died at the hand of her 'master', because it was abuse.....and you knew and did nothing to help?

(in reply to amayos)

Post #: 14

RE: Slave Abuse & Interference - 8/17/2006 12:03:36 PM

MrDiscipline44

Posts: 1776
Joined: 1/5/2005
Status: offline

quote:

That slave also happens to be a living breathing human being.

Thats right, they are a thinking, breathing, feeling human being. And if they're in a situation that they feel is not right for them, they should get themselves out of it of their own accord. And not run to a "savior" to get them out of something they got themselves into..

_____________________________

If you love somebody, you have to be willing to break them.

Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.

Have you slapped your slave today?

(in reply to indigo302)

Post #: 15

RE: Slave Abuse & Interference - 8/17/2006 12:27:13 PM

Voltare

Posts: 841
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Santiago, Chile
Status: offline

Passion,

So far, some pretty good advice, though I can definatley see why you're a bit concerned.

First off, some very distinct lines need to be drawn. Gorean relationships are not another way to say 'relationships without rules.' Just because the Master in question has her consent to burn her alive or cut off an arm, doesn't mean he has the legal right to do so. So, too, does there need to be a very firm, clear establishment of what is 'right' and 'wrong' in their relationship. And, like it or not, the slave in question has to accept the ultimate responsibility for what happens to her.

In vanilla relationships, sometimes a husband beats his wife. She could, naturally, just leave and end the problem, but we all know that in practice, this is not as easy as it sounds. It's a situation where she has to find a job, might not have a car, or quite possibly find a way to take care of the kids alone. So she chooses, instead, to remain with the husband, in an abusive situation. She becomes accepting of the situation, even if it's 'wrong.' The trouble with BDSM, D/s, and Gorean relationships is that often what seems like absue is actually an integral part of the relationship - that slapping, hair pulling, denial of food aren't just accepted, but indeed desired by both parties and it's possible the relationship wouldn't be as fulfilling without these elements.

A slave, Gorean or otherwise, who finds herself in a situation over her head often has to make the leap from a slave mentality, to self-preservation. If I had a slave friend who I felt was in a dangerous situation, I would ask her privately if she was alright. If she said yes, then I would let what is, is. By the same token, if I saw a Master or Dominant being cruel or viscious with his slave or submissive, I'd probably ask him about it. After all, if I saw a normal guy beating his dog on the street, I'd probably stop it. So too, if I saw a Dom being viscious or aggressive beyond what I consider normal, I'd definately tell him, and possibly intervene.

That's the best advice I can give. Hope it helps.

Stephan

_____________________________

http://www.vv3b.com/

"There is always some madness in love, but there is always some reason in madness." - F. Nietzsche

(in reply to MrDiscipline44)

Post #: 16

RE: Slave Abuse & Interference - 8/17/2006 2:55:33 PM

amayos

Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: indigo302

quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos

I personally do not. What one does with his or her slave is not my right of concern, unless I am invited to offer my opinion by the owner. Otherwise, nothing to me, where they go, what they do or how they abide. Who am I to moralize upon how one treats property? For that is what a slave is.

That slave also happens to be a living breathing human being.

How would you feel if you took that stance with a slave, and later she died at the hand of her 'master', because it was abuse.....and you knew and did nothing to help?

By extension of that logic, I do hope you contribute most of your disposable income religiously to RAINN, Oxfam or Amnesty International to sate that bleeding heart. People die every day as a result of their own choices. I am not one to meddle in their affairs as a personal deliverer, nor am I one to govern what others do with property, living or not. There are times when one must rise up for the good of one's nation or cause, but I will not serve as arbiter regarding what is and is not abuse in slavery, of all things.

(in reply to indigo302)

Post #: 17

RE: Slave Abuse & Interference - 8/17/2006 4:24:51 PM

Passion357

Posts: 481
Joined: 8/7/2005
Status: offline

Greetings, Everyone,

I have read the entire thread and I will continue to do so until I feel said matter has been given all the advice it can be. Thank you ALL for what you have contributed so far.
(For the record: this is not about me.)

Greetings, bluelace,

quote:

Unfortunately, those who get abused may be too scared to leave, or feel they have no way out. It does happen, so would the dominants then still sit back and say nothing?

That is a question I was so hoping to see get asked. Thank you.

Greetings, LA,

quote:

If they felt a need to hide what was going on, if I felt them withdraw into themselves, and if they were a good friend of mine, I'd talk to them about it and see how they felt.

Thank you. This is a key part of the abuse problem. Not finding oneself with a dork asshole (LOL) and being bored. But actually withdrawl and "uh oh something's wrong" showing.

Greetings, Savage,

quote:

Really if the slave thinks its abuse then it is. After all she's (or he) is the one enduring it.

A really good point indeed. I have seen it often, after reading the thread, and I took it in very deep. You are correct, I think.

One of my main reasons for posting this thread was to see things I was not seeing as being quite close to the situation. I, as a slave, am compelled to take a slave's side when it comes to abuse, specifically mental. I can very well see the Master's side, too. I have been often told I am very fair and good at seeing both sides. When it came to the point I was getting upset with what I was hearing, I decided to reach out and touch others with the subject.

(These following quotes may not be exact, I am just making a point.)
Something as simple as "if she thinks it's abuse, it is" was easy for me to miss. As well as "SPEAK to your Master, and if it's a deal breaker, leave". Just the word "leave", as simple as it sounds, was not something I really contemplated as such. I was too busy thinking of the inner workings of the relationship as a whole. I don't like the "quitting" aspect. But damnitt if that is the only way not to be in sheer misery...
I am paying close attention to these words and have and will continue to take everything into context as the days go by. I thank you All again.
Well Wishes,
~mate'~

(in reply to bluelace001)

Post #: 18

RE: Slave Abuse & Interference - 8/17/2006 4:48:52 PM

Passion357

Posts: 481
Joined: 8/7/2005
Status: offline

Greetings, Lashra,

quote:

If I saw another Dominant beating a sub/slave in the face with his/her fist until said sub/slave was on the ground, bloodied and the sub/slave screaming STOP, someone help me! Yep I'd step over and ask what the hell was going on.

An excellent line to draw, I think. Thank you for that.
As well as:

quote:

SPEAK UP to your owner and tell her/him I CAN'T take this and if its a deal breaker prepare to move on. Don't stay with someone who isn't fulfilling their part of the relationship, who is abusing you, or who is making you miserable.

I can't take this and it's a deal breaker. Those are certainly words I was looking for! That is what I have been wracking my brain to get to. "Master, what you are doing it a deal breaker for me." I do see myself passing this info on. It's just that simple. Thank you, Lashra.

Greetings, Crappy,

quote:

The worst stuff is the emotional manipulation, or at least that is the most abusive stuff that is common.

Yes! Perfectly stated. Thank you.

quote:

Dangling a collar/relationship over someone to get them to do what you want while you shop around for a better woman is pretty common.

It is really? What say you All to this? I say whether everyone agrees this is true, it is definitely something to beware of. Excellent words to be used as advice, if indeed <how can I say this> it is something, obvious, that could be happening.

Greetings, amayos,

quote:

unless I am invited to offer my opinion by the owner. Otherwise, nothing to me, where they go, what they do or how they abide. Who am I to moralize upon how one treats property? For that is what a slave is.

Understood. Very well stated, too. Thank you. This will be taken into context as well. It is a true statement.

Greetings, Slip,

quote:

Considering that this is Earth, and not Gor, said slave could simply leave. He might step in to stop her, but ultimately it is her choice to leave, even if they are going by Gorean custom.
and when someone feels one side has breached the relationship, the ability to leave is still there, even if it means breaking Gorean custom.

Very correct. Customs are customs. They do not have to be lived up to exactly, when there is a question of a breach on one or both parties. Thank you.

Greetings, indigo,

quote:

How would you feel if you took that stance with a slave, and later she died at the hand of her 'master', because it was abuse.....and you knew and did nothing to help?

Excellent point. Thank you. This is one of my concerns as well. What am I to do? Just sit back and let the tide roll in...I will not force my beliefs on anyone who is not of The DSF, but I will not watch a friend drown simply because her Master forgot to hand her a life jacket.

Greetings, Discipline,

quote:

Thats right, they are a thinking, breathing, feeling human being. And if they're in a situation that they feel is not right for them, they should get themselves out of it of their own accord. And not run to a "savior" to get them out of something they got themselves into..

Thank you. Taking all this in, I see now, there be no need for said "Savior" (maybe a Master stepping in), on account I know of no physical abuse such as previously stated beating.

Greetings, Voltare,

quote:

First off, some very distinct lines need to be drawn. Gorean relationships are not another way to say 'relationships without rules.'

Oh point very well taken.

quote:

So, too, does there need to be a very firm, clear establishment of what is 'right' and 'wrong' in their relationship. And, like it or not, the slave in question has to accept the ultimate responsibility for what happens to her.

Not sure I could have stated that better if I was paid to. Thank you.

quote:

A slave, Gorean or otherwise, who finds herself in a situation over her head often has to make the leap from a slave mentality, to self-preservation.

Self preservation. Perfect.

quote:

If I had a slave friend who I felt was in a dangerous situation, I would ask her privately if she was alright. If she said yes, then I would let what is, is.

Such was asked. Please assume since I am here afterall the answer was not "yes".

I cannot that you All enough for such wonderful advice on such a touchy subject! Thank you thank you thank you!! Please keep the advice coming

Well Wishes,
~mate'~

(in reply to Lashra)

Post #: 19

RE: Slave Abuse & Interference - 8/17/2006 10:35:38 PM

Voltare

Posts: 841
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Santiago, Chile
Status: offline

Well, having said the pivotal statement, that she's -not- ok, then if she wants to survive her situation in sufficiant mental and physical condition to properly serve another man in her future (ideally one that will ensure her bare minimum safety and security) then she needs to pull what she has together, and move on. Naturally, it might not be that simple, and depending on how long she has been with him, children, job, etc, she might wish to consider a serious conversation with her owner. If he loves her, then that love would permit him a measure of reason - perhaps he needs anger management, counseling, or therepy. Obviously, without knowing these factors, the advice we can give is general, at best. As her friend, I would -strongly- attempt to convey her own sense of responsiblity on her, if not for herself, then for her friends and family who surely must be enduring her pain as well.

Best of luck to you.

Stephan

_____________________________

http://www.vv3b.com/

"There is always some madness in love, but there is always some reason in madness." - F. Nietzsche

(in reply to Passion357)

Post #: 20

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