RE: Did the Left start the war in Iraq??

RE: Did the Left start the war in Iraq?? (Full Version)

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NorthernGent -> RE: Did the Left start the war in Iraq?? (8/19/2006 4:04:09 PM)
Oh I know D4US, admirable too. I'm dazzled by the logic of other posters - "if it weren't for you lot protesting against murder they wouldn't have minded us murdering them". Really, really amazing. Regards

peterK50 -> RE: Did the Left start the war in Iraq?? (8/19/2006 4:24:40 PM)
People at NSA & CIA, especially those who have left have accused Cheney of manipulating intelligence & applying pressure to make the facts fit his agenda. If the committee heads [Republicans all] exercised supeona power in hearings then we'd get proof. Stay tuned after the November elections

Daddy4UdderSlut -> RE: Did the Left start the war in Iraq?? (8/19/2006 4:51:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: peterK50 People at NSA & CIA, especially those who have left have accused Cheney of manipulating intelligence & applying pressure to make the facts fit his agenda. If the committee heads [Republicans all] exercised supeona power in hearings then we'd get proof. Stay tuned after the November elections I have seen interviews with scientists from US nuclear laboratories who were given the infamous "aluminum centrifuge tubes" intended for Iraq by the Bush administration, and asked to verify what they were. Experts from the Department of Energy's Oak Ridge, Lawrence Livermore, and Los Alamos National Laboratories inspected the tubes. These guys are the "The Man", the "Go-to Guys" when it comes to nuclear energy and nuclear weapons. They came back and said no, these couldn't possibly be high speed gas centrifuge tubes for isolating Uranium-238 (precursor material to "The Bomb"). They also pointed out that the tubes were though, identical to aluminum tubes used by Iraq for simple rockets in the past, and said that not only couldn't they be used for making the bomb, they likely were intended for use as bodies for more simple rockets. Oddly enough, after presenting their findings (which were of course more detailed in analysis and rationale)... those findings were ignored, and the administration continued to insist that these tubes indicated beyond the shadow of a doubt that these tubes were clear evidence of Iraq's nuclear weapons capability. The scientists were livid! But, the people with the bully pulpit were Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice and Powell... and we all know what happened. Here's a little quote from an interview with among others, Dr. Houston Wood, one of the Oak Ridge scientists who'd issued the report on the tubes, along with interleaved excerpts from the administration mouthpieces... quote: US VICE PRESIDENT DICK CHENEY: Many of us are convinced that Saddam Hussein will acquire nuclear weapons fairly soon and subject the United States or any other nation to nuclear blackmail. LIZ JACKSON: The pivotal speech was Vice President Cheney's address to the war veterans on August 26th, raising the nuclear spectre. LIZ JACKSON: Two weeks after Cheney's speech, the Bush administration leaked the story of the aluminium tubes to the New York Times. It was front-page news. Anonymous officials were quoted saying there was new information that Iraq had embarked on a worldwide hunt for material to make an atomic bomb, and that the specifications of the aluminium tubes had persuaded American intelligence experts that the tubes were for Iraq's nuclear program. Administration officials warned, "The first sign of a 'smoking gun'...may be a mushroom cloud." There was no mention of any debate or dissension about the tubes at all. PROF. HOUSTON WOOD: My first thought was, "This must be some new tubes", you know. And then...and then when I realised that these were the tubes that I had been looking at a year before, I was just...I was...I was just shocked. I couldn't believe that, you know, here we were, saying that these tubes were, you know, the same tubes that I'd come to the conclusion a year before were not valid for centrifuges, and here they're saying they are. So, er...that was a real surprise. LIZ JACKSON: Later on the same day that the New York Times published, Condoleezza Rice went on CNN. DR CONDOLEEZZA RICE, US NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR: There have been shipments of high-quality aluminium tubes that are only really suited for nuclear weapons programs, centrifuge programs. LIZ JACKSON: And a phrase began to echo. DR CONDOLEEZZA RICE: We don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud. LIZ JACKSON: Later that night, Dick Cheney was on NBC. US VICE PRESIDENT DICK CHENEY: He now is trying, through his illicit procurement network, to acquire the equipment he needs to be able to enrich uranium...to make the bombs. REPORTER: Aluminium tubes? US VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: Specifically, aluminium tubes. The story in the New York Times... See, "Spinning the Tubes": http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/content/2003/transcripts/s976015.htm

WyrdRich -> RE: Did the Left start the war in Iraq?? (8/19/2006 5:05:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EnglishDomNW quote: ORIGINAL: WyrdRich This war was never the best option and some very dumb things have happened along the way. Those protesters get to share the blame and the blood is on their hands as well. I'm not sure I follow what point you're trying to make - you condemn the protestors and partly blame them but also say the war was never the best option. Wasn't that what the protestors were saying all along? Nope. The protesters were saying "Bush is a Nazi" and spouting crap out every orifice. I'm just ignoring the BS and waiting for somebody to tell me exactly what good came out of the protest. Otherwise, I'm sticking to the point that it was mostly a spiteful and blind stupid little game that undercut any hope of getting a peaceful solution.

Daddy4UdderSlut -> RE: Did the Left start the war in Iraq?? (8/19/2006 5:14:41 PM)
Let's see now, Greg Thielmann, former director of the Strategic, Proliferation and Military Affairs Office at the State Department's Intelligence Bureau, who resigned just prior to the Iraq invasion over the statements that the administrations were making to justify it, in direct conflict with what was known. quote: "Senior officials made statements which I can only describe as dishonest," he says. "They were distorting some of the information that we provided to make it seem more alarmist and more dangerous." See Frontline interview at:http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/truth/interviews/thielmann.html Still, some state confidently here that it's actually "The Left" is responsible for the Iraq invasion, and that there is just no evidence whatsoever that the administration manipulated intelligence. [8\|]

gooddogbenji -> RE: Did the Left start the war in Iraq?? (8/19/2006 5:28:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WyrdRich I'm just ignoring the BS and waiting for somebody to tell me exactly what good came out of the protest. I am going to insist that resistance to Mussolini's coup d'etat was at fault for World War 2, until someone shows me what good came of it. There is a significant difference between something doing no good, because it gets ignored, and something doing harm to a situation arising later. By your logic, any time I disagree with my boss at work, for example, but he still goes ahead with it, I am to blame if he was wrong. Not the guy who ultimately made the decision and could steer the course, but the guy who said at the start that the idea is bad. Rych, I used to think you were a pretty bright guy, but unless this is meant to be funny, I'm questioning your momentary sanity. Yours, benji

WyrdRich -> RE: Did the Left start the war in Iraq?? (8/19/2006 6:26:51 PM)
Yeah, it is a pretty far out there hypothesis and I'm willing to acknowledge that my affair with a 4 am alarm clock might have led to a less than polished OP. Let me play with your boss analogy a bit to see if I can clarify... Your boss announces that he is moving the plant from Toronto to Tulsa because the Canadian health care system is destroying the bottom line (just an off the cuff example, I don't know a damn thing about Canadian taxes) and he keeps getting hit with slip and fall claims because of the puppy puddles. You and your fellow widget-makers quickly assemble in the Union hall and demand he negotiate a solution with the Gov't. Off he goes to the Ministry of Industrial Safety to say "ease up on the taxes and penalties or I have to take this factory out of the country and these people lose their jobs." He tells them he can make the plant safer by putting a shock collar on the problem animal. Do the workers show up to make sure the Ministry knows they want their jobs? No. They now have a public platform to air all their greivances and complaints so they show up whining about how unfair the boss is. Another contingent rages that he is a specie-ist (no better than a rascist or homophobe) because he is singling out the dog. Oops. By destroying your boss' credibility with the very people you told him to deal with, any chance of keeping the plant open is gone and your paycheck is now beer money for a redneck. But a few of you got on TV, so it's all good right?

gooddogbenji -> RE: Did the Left start the war in Iraq?? (8/19/2006 7:23:42 PM)
The big difference between the two is this: In one case, there was an agreement - weapons inspectors are allowed in. This agreement was broken by one side, the other demanded it be rectified. It was rectified, more demands were made, with the threat of invasion. Underlings protested. Invasion followed (I'm not commenting on justification of the war, only on events) Invasion got fucked up. Underlings blamed. This is more like a work-related scenario: My factory has a contract with another factory, under which it is a condition that we inspect the factory to ensure proper working conditions. The other factory stops letting inspectors in. Court papers are filed by us. Inspectors let back in, but we demand lower prices on products in future, threatening a hostile takeover. Us working types meet and agree that a hostile takeover would not be a good idea, because we don't have the know how to do it. Despite not being unionized, we come to you with the message that we will encourage a boycott of our own factory goods if this happens. Boss man takes over the other factory anyway, then blames us for it not working. In this example, you have two theoretically equal forces, 2 factories/nations dealing with each other. One side does have more military/ecnomic power though, and tries to force it's will on the other side. A large group of essentially powerless (at least in the short term) people object to it. (We can debate on the values of their arguments, but in the end, that's all they did. Vocally object.) The leaders decide to go against these underlings and take over the other group anyway. So how are the underlings to blame? I don't really see it, but that's just me. Yours, benji

WyrdRich -> RE: Did the Left start the war in Iraq?? (8/19/2006 8:28:16 PM)
Dammit!!! I was crafting a brilliant reply when the yellow lab we are dogsitting knocked the damn power cord out of the socket and sent it all forever into the ether... No, I'm not blaming the Left for the mess after we went in. Add more alcohol or take away more sleep and I might rant about how the wimps and pussies forced us to go in with pansy-ass rules of engagement that probably cost more innocent lives in the long run but I would be wrong. President Bush actually thought we could wage a politically correct war (dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb). What pissed me off (and I'm a grudge-holding SOB) was the spectacle of Bush hatred on display. If there was any hope of not crossing that border, the message that America did not support our President killed it.

gooddogbenji -> RE: Did the Left start the war in Iraq?? (8/19/2006 8:32:37 PM)
A: I think at this point it is clear that many people had their hearts set on crossing that border regardless of other factors. B: Personally, I think it would hav been a good idea NOT to cross that border. Turns out there was no WMD all along. Turns out, Saddam was better at running the country than we are. Turns out, we're in a giant clusterfuck, and we don't have an exit strategy. And at 20 or 30% approval, nothing about that war is politically correct. Yours, benji

juliaoceania -> RE: Did the Left start the war in Iraq?? (8/19/2006 10:58:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WyrdRich quote: ORIGINAL: gooddogbenji Do you think the war would have been prevented had all Americans stood behind Bush and chanted "Bomb Saddam! Bomb Saddam!" benji It wouldn't have hurt. Burn a few Iraqi flags and torch mannequins labeled "Sodamn Insane." That sort of speech is widely practiced and understood in the region. A protest orgy was the worst message possible. I'm not enough of a conspiracy nut to call it intentional but to undermine the authority of our negotiator was just spiteful and blind stupid. The war was illegal, it was immoral, and there is no way you can blame peaceful people for what the oil companies and Bush wrought. It was not up to us to decide the fate of Iraq, we had no right. Jesus man, what you are saying is it is ok to invade soveriegn countries for their resources and I should have supported that bullshit... aint no fucking way dude, aint no fucking way. I would have given anything to prevent this country from doing what it did... we are nothing but AGRESSORS now... thank you Haliburton! I cannot believe what I read just now.., Were you crying the day we invaded Iraq? I was, i wasn't marching that day, but I sure as hell cried that day because I knew this was going to happen... IT WAS FUCKING FORESEEABLE DAMMIT. Geesh Gore gave a speech where he outlined what would happen!

Kedicat -> RE: Did the Left start the war in Iraq?? (8/20/2006 12:32:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WyrdRich Let's go back a few years and speculate a bit. What if Bush was perfectly willing to bluff Saddam into folding? I was watching the whole thing pretty closely (a little brother was sitting close to the Iraqi border) and I remember the whole dance this country went through leading up to the war. I remember UN resolutions and clear demands that Saddam comply with them. I remember a final demand that Saddam could avert war by going into exile. What I wanted more than anything else was for that man and his family to get on a few airplanes full off $100 bills. I knew it wasn't going to happen. The same newscast spent more time reporting that elementary school teachers were leading their classes out to protest. The Left/Liberals had to have their fucking protest party and the media was thrilled to cover it. They insisted on diplomacy and then created a weak position to negotiate from. Had the United States shown a resolute and united face, I think the invasion could have been avoided. Instead, a picture was presented to our adversaries of a decadent and divided people that wouldn't actually do it. Hussein's last hiding place makes it pretty clear he never believed we would actually come all the way in. What did those idiots think was going to happen when the negotiations failed because of their sabotage??? Bush is from Texas, remember?? This war was never the best option and some very dumb things have happened along the way. Those protesters get to share the blame and the blood is on their hands as well. Well you forget or never bothered to hear a whole lot of other stuff. It's very convenient to waste time posing questions that have already been answered over and over. It is the meat and potatoes of the Hannity's Limbaugh's and their ilk. It's been said, proved, done. Keep on rehashing the discredited crap while Rome burns. Who was president? Who controlled the senate? Who can declare war, mobilize troops? DUH!!!!!!!! I think it might have been the right? Oh. Have to admit, that at the time, I think the right wasn't in control of the congress. Just in control of the spin that sucked in a lot of dambass scared lefts as well.. A pox on them too. 9/11 AKA another Pearl harbour did the trick.

NorthernGent -> RE: Did the Left start the war in Iraq?? (8/20/2006 4:25:53 AM)
We all know where it's heading. At some point public opinion will demand that US and British forces withdraw - in a similar vein to other economic/war ventures. The question is when? How many people will have to die to push our societies into sitting up and taking notice? In Britain, I don't think we're anywhere near this point. Yes, there is an anti-war movement but it's not strong enough to demand that the media put the withdrawal issue consistently in the public eye. We had a situation 2 years ago where families of dead British soldiers were suing the Government for illegal invasion and that could have been the catalyst but it's largely passed people by. Regards

caitlyn -> RE: Did the Left start the war in Iraq?? (8/20/2006 5:57:37 AM)
I think we are being far too hard on this post. The post actually was a fair attempt at passing the blame ... it was just missing a few key elements. 1. It failed to mention that Democrats thought there were WMD's, and voted for it too ... also known at the "but all the other kids are doing it" strategy. 2. While mentioning liberals and mentioning media ... the post failed to make the connection by mentioning "the liberal media." A classic mistake. 3. A post should never mention war protests, without mentioning Jane Fonda. 4. A post five paragraphs long, requires that the words terrorists or terrorism be mentioned at least once per paragraph. War on terror may also be subtituted. I hope this helps. [;)]

cloudboy -> RE: Did the Left start the war in Iraq?? (8/20/2006 7:06:42 AM)
Brilliant. Now that the War is fucked, you may as well blame it on the War's opponents. Nixonesque indeed.

happypervert -> RE: Did the Left start the war in Iraq?? (8/20/2006 8:27:18 AM)
The war in Iraq was started by Osama bin Laden. If he had only cooperated with US forces by allowing himself to get captured in Afghanistan, then Dubya could have declared victory on the war on terror and we could have gotten on to more productive things. Unfortunately, bin Laden decided to remain free, and when it became obvious we couldn't catch him the White House shifted the emphasis from Osama to Saddam without missing a beat. It worked too, with a majority of Americans believing that Saddam was involved in 9/11. Luckily, Saddam was easy to find, the troops were greeted by smiling Iraquis bringing bouquets of flowers and they have been enjoying the fruits of democracy for over 3 years now. Mission Accomplished! http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/temp/coalitiondeaths.png

philosophy -> RE: Did the Left start the war in Iraq?? (8/20/2006 11:04:48 AM)
"2. While mentioning liberals and mentioning media ... the post failed to make the connection by mentioning "the liberal media." A classic mistake. " i am never sure what a liberal media is...is it one that actually reports news that the administration doesn't like? The BBC is called left wing when right wingers are in power and right wing when left wingers are in power. Surely a good state of affairs, as any culture that begins to see dissent as a negative thing is on the slippery slope to classical facism.......as defined by that bundle of Roman sticks, before anyone starts painting swastikas on this post. "3. A post should never mention war protests, without mentioning Jane Fonda." ..sorry, why? Is it because she was demonstrably wrong when suggesting that napalming babies was a bad idea, or because she didnt do so on american soil? (i am suddenly reminded of the Dixie Chicks thread here, when some people suggested that while they had a right to their opinions but they shouldnt have expressed them in Iceland.........) Surely this is just the usual blame game, indulged in by all sides when they're clearly in error............as an exercise in sophistry it has some value, but any argument that considers dissent to be an unpatriotic act is clearly flawed.

caitlyn -> RE: Did the Left start the war in Iraq?? (8/20/2006 11:41:10 AM)
These were all meant to be sarcasm.[:D]

NorthernGent -> RE: Did the Left start the war in Iraq?? (8/20/2006 12:06:22 PM)
Mein Gott Philosophy, you've been out-sarcasmed by an American. The world really is a mysterious place. According to the Conservatives among us the left are a pack of work shy, lazy, scroungers who spend most of their time in tree-houses so where did we get this sudden burst of energy and drive to start a war!? eh? Regards

caitlyn -> RE: Did the Left start the war in Iraq?? (8/20/2006 12:43:54 PM)
Are you implying that America doesn't lead the entire world in sarcasm? How Dare!!!! We have invaded people for less. hhhmmmm ... perhaps that's a poor choice of words. [;)]

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