RE: Did the Left start the war in Iraq??

RE: Did the Left start the war in Iraq?? (Full Version)

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juliaoceania -> RE: Did the Left start the war in Iraq?? (8/21/2006 9:41:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CrappyDom In short, Bush has set a standard for incompetent at the presidential level that will never be broken. All while the Republicans sat on their asses and did nothing but spend like drunken sailors. Treason is too kind a word for it. I agree with every part of your post, but I highlighted that one part because I am fearful of statements like this. Call it superstition, but I cringe at the possibility that we could get a worse president... it is possible, even if highly unlikely.

CrappyDom -> RE: Did the Left start the war in Iraq?? (8/21/2006 9:45:55 AM)
Julia, I think Bush has finally killed that bit of America that likes "common" presidents. Finally, I think America will welcome someone with intelligence and elloquence and genuine integrity.

juliaoceania -> RE: Did the Left start the war in Iraq?? (8/21/2006 9:52:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CrappyDom Julia, I think Bush has finally killed that bit of America that likes "common" presidents. Finally, I think America will welcome someone with intelligence and elloquence and genuine integrity. Im suffering from Post Traumatic Election Disorder..smiles

mnottertail -> RE: Did the Left start the war in Iraq?? (8/21/2006 10:05:51 AM)
LOLOLOL, Crapster, the reason they do this is so that some untold time hence, this will become classical and romantic reading.......It would be accurate, but rather untestable in a no child left behind school system to have the ol' Houghton Mifflin American History in the modern age have the chapter from the years of this administration simple be the sentence: The president and his administration were floundering dickheads. Ron

WyrdRich -> RE: Did the Left start the war in Iraq?? (8/21/2006 5:14:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CrappyDom Rich, Thanks for the most idiotic OP in the history of the internet. Really?!?! IN YOUR FACE BENJI!!!! Seriously, what is idiotic about asking the question; If the Left really wanted a peaceful solution in Iraq, why would they sabotage the credibility of our chief negotiator by screaming to the world that President Bush did not have the support of his country? I speculated that the highest Liberal value is, in fact, a hatred of George Bush (and conservative thinkers in general), not the Peace, Tolerance, Equality and Marmalade Skies they claim. I further speculated that this spiteful orgy on the international stage damaged what chances there might have been for a peaceful (or at least less fucked up) resolution. Seven pages of Republican criticism of Clinton during Kosovo... http://www.democrats.org/pdfs/gop_kosovo.pdf#search=%22criticism%20kosovo%20republican%22 Since you have the time and bandwidth for this sort of research, check out Bill O'Reilly's interview with Janine Garoffolo (I probably spelled that wrong). Asked why she wasn't out there protesting Kosovo, she had the honesty to admit, "it wasn't hip." That said, how fucking dare you blame probably the worst military blunder since I don't know, the time the Persians let the Greeks hold them at Thermopylae. Huh? Even if we grant you this completely idiotic theory, Hehehehehe. I'm not sure if this makes you the second or third responder to call me names and then concede my point. how are you going to explain the complete and utter incompetence of the occupation? How are you going to deal with the fact that Bush has not only failed to isolate Iran but has turned them from a has-been into the major player and clear leader of the Muslim world? Not to mention that Iraq is also now THE major training base for Al Queda. Not only that but he has devastated the military, our readiness is in the tank, we are loosing our officer and NCO cadres as fast as they can find a way to get out, the guard is being destroyed and will likely never recover, our equipment is worn out, we are scrapping the needed buildup to counter China in order to fund daily operations in Iraq. In short, Bush has set a standard for incompetent at the presidential level that will never be broken. All while the Republicans sat on their asses and did nothing but spend like drunken sailors. I'm not even going to go here. I wanted the negotiations to work. Treason is too kind a word for it. Okay, this I agree with.

CrappyDom -> RE: Did the Left start the war in Iraq?? (8/21/2006 8:16:31 PM)
Rich, I never called you an idiot, I called your post and your theory idiotic. As for my extensive research, I googled "Kosovo war Republican criticism"...not exactly a mind boggling undertaking, at least not for a liberal. As for the Persians and the Greeks, those are ancient civilizations, I thought it a good choice since Bush's Blunder (catchy eh? but not biblical enough) will do a great deal to reverse the lot of the Persians at the expense of the West.

mnottertail -> RE: Did the Left start the war in Iraq?? (8/21/2006 8:26:07 PM)
See.................Whooooop there it is......... In times hence and immemorial, you will be studying Bush's Blunder and Fulton's Folly side by side------ won't have learned a fuckin' thing, and it will be American History, with a point. That is catchy, grease your hair, look worried and get on the McLaughlin Group or some other talking head program and this will look like it was a good idea, (can we get some wooden teeth on this pretzel choker?) this can be spun bigger than the louisanna purchase........... Oh, Crap.......This is big I tell you...........THIS is fuckin' BIG!!!!!!! LOLOLOLOL, Ron

philosophy -> RE: Did the Left start the war in Iraq?? (8/22/2006 2:23:48 AM)
"If the Left really wanted a peaceful solution in Iraq, why would they sabotage the credibility of our chief negotiator by screaming to the world that President Bush did not have the support of his country?" Maybe because the position being negotiated was a) nothing to do with peace and b) didn't have the support of the country. Your argument contains within it an interesting assumption. That the truth is not part of a negotiating position. Bush et al were incompetent enough to think they could simply lie about things in order to further a narrow (not national) agenda. The only possible response to that is to call foul. Anything else is to accept that lying about something as important as the reason for going to war is not a crime.

WyrdRich -> RE: Did the Left start the war in Iraq?? (8/22/2006 3:46:25 PM)
'Bush lied' makes a nifty little slogan for the true believers and it is simple enough for the bandwagon types to remember, but it doesn't hold in an honest discussion. Minor disagreements about precisely what varieties and stages of progress aside (or moderate disagreements if you want to get persnickety), there was a general agreement that Saddam had WMD and was willing to use them. The Kurds didn't die of Bird Flu. We have found caches of chemical shells and the like. Was it hyped? I'd call it more finding what they wanted to in fuzzy data, but I'd let you use that word. I don't view it very differently from when the Clinton administration started talking about the Branch-Davidians molesting unmentionables and I knew those people were about to die. Crappy; you are correct, you insulted my ideas, not my person. I retract that you called me names. Ron: it would have to be Fox News unless MSNBC wanted to set me up for a hatchet job.

NorthernGent -> RE: Did the Left start the war in Iraq?? (8/22/2006 4:00:59 PM)
Wyrd, I know you've had a few of those ice cream beers and you're dazzled by the decripid old German queen you paid 1000 bucks? to see but your statement: 'Bush lied' makes a nifty little slogan for the true believers and it is simple enough for the bandwagon types to remember, but it doesn't hold in an honest discussion. One question - are you injecting yourself with horse-tranquillisers? Regards

NorthernGent -> RE: Did the Left start the war in Iraq?? (8/22/2006 4:04:21 PM)
Try the forged documents that both the CIA and Blair used to futher their case. The International Atomic Energy Agency dismissed them as forgeries within a few seconds. Regards

WyrdRich -> RE: Did the Left start the war in Iraq?? (8/22/2006 4:16:57 PM)
You can always tell when a politician is lying; their lips move. As far as the "big lie," (putting on my mindreader hat) Bush actually believed what he said about WMD's in Iraq and Saddam being a serious potential threat. He was wrong about at least one of those. IMO, believing something that turns out to be wrong doesn't make a liar, it makes a human. I try to look at things without the prism of hate and the whole 'Bush lied' thing isn't there without it. Actually, it was just one icy cold, hard cider this afternoon.

juliaoceania -> RE: Did the Left start the war in Iraq?? (8/22/2006 5:06:40 PM)
I remember a certain gentleman named Hans Blix.. Stepping back into my time machine http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,974998,00.html And I remember another one that was smeared...Scott Ritter ring a bell? http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,351165,00.html And then there is this gentleman and his wife also smeared for opposing the lies http://www.thenation.com/blogs/capitalgames?pid=823 I could come up with other examples... but I rest my case

CrappyDom -> RE: Did the Left start the war in Iraq?? (8/22/2006 6:47:03 PM)
Rich, The WACO raid was planned under Bush, not Clinton, same with Somalia and both had oil... As for Saddam having WMD and the willingness to use them, that is meaningless without context and I am not talking about the fact that WE gave him the WMD. Saddam used them on his own people but there is a bigger genocide going on in Darfur and we ain't doing shit that wasn't the reason. Saddam was not going to use WMD on the West, nor was he going to give them to his arch enemies, Al Queda. He had seen what we could do to him when his army was intact, in 2003 it was a shambles and he knew it. He was playing a game of chicken where he needed to needle us enough to make it look like he was the brave warrior but NEVER give us reason to act. So saying he was "willing to use them" without stating who is meaningless. Many respectable people were screaming that Iraq did not have WMD but too many were busy screaming back "traitor" to listen. They were right to and the evidence showing that is slowly comming to light. This administration stripped ever caveat the intelligence community put in a report prior to Congress seeing it. If people are willing to impeach Clinton over the meaning of "is" I think manipulating intelligence data in order to convince the country to go to war at least meets the same bar.

amayos -> RE: Did the Left start the war in Iraq?? (8/22/2006 8:16:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WyrdRich Did the Left start the war in Iraq? Nay. Ultimately, our shady energy policy and cold-war era machinations within that region are to blame.

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