RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom?

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Sunshine119 -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/19/2006 9:29:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip If you are a female sub, would you rather be flogged by male top wanting to give you pleasure or a male top wanting to give you pain? Do you try to get away from lashes or do you position your butt to eagerly accept the next lash? His Highness flogs me for two reasons. The first is because I crave it. If I were bitchy, I would simply be ignorned and forgotten for a while as punishment....not played with. The second reason is he needs to work out something and I am more than happy to be used to releave his stress. As far as moving my butt? Initially, it may be more than available to him. As time goes on however and the distress increases, I will struggle to get away (which can also heighten my pleasure) quote: If you are female sub, do you perfer a real sexual sadist or a top who loves giving pleasure through a flogger? I don't think I'd be with a "real" sexual sadist. I want someone who is in control all the time and doesn't ever give into the violence often associated with extreme sadism. Many "real" sexual sadists are in jail for non consensual acts. I am a maschochist, but not extreme. Oh, BTW, I find it interesting that you are here to study us. When you publish your findings, just let us know where we can find them.

Tikkiee -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/20/2006 12:07:02 AM)
quote: As a Bottom, I frankly don't care whether the top "likes" me or not - as long as he's compitant with the tools and doesn't make the mistake of crossing any lines that I've laid out not to be crossed. He had definately better be interested in my pleasure, of I'm not likely to allow him to take a swing at me in the first place - it's about what *I like, not about what HE likes. So perfectly well said, thankyou :)

twicehappy -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/20/2006 4:33:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip Their only concern is that the top be competent with the tools of the trade, and not exceed their hard limits. If you read the other thread I started, you will see this is the case. So far it appears you are incorrect in this. I read all of the answers you received to date and the count is as follows; 2 posters statements are questionable 5 posters agree with your statement 8 posters disagree and state there must be an emotional connection, if you add the votes from our house that bring it up to 11 posters who disagree with you. The odds do not look favorable for your opinion at the moment.

kyraofMists -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/20/2006 6:20:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip I have a theory, I am trying to test. My feeling is male sadist tops would rather flog a bottom who is not submissive, who is bitchy, who doesn't enjoy pain, who recoils from being flogged but allows you to flog her anyway. On the other hand, I think most female tops would rather flog a bottom who is submissive, who gets pleasure from pain, who is someone they like or love rather than a bottom who is not submissive, who does not get pleasure from pain, who is someone they really dislike. Most people that I have seen play are male tops with female bottoms and there have been very few that administer sensations that are actually painful to the bottom. Most of the male tops I have watched like to stay in the area of pleasurable sensations and if they cross that line from pleasure to pain, they back off real quick. Most of the female bottoms I have seen are very docile/submissive during play. On the other hand, some of the most sadistic tops I have seen have been female tops with male bottoms. My Lord and I went to a small play party in Niagara Falls this year and half the tops there were female and as a whole the group was the most sadistic that we have played with; we fit right in. These are my observations from the limited experience with the public scenes in Ft. Lauderdale, Edmonton, Niagara Falls and Calgary and they are very general statements. I have seen very few that play to the sadistic level that my Lord plays and I have seen very few tops who allow or encourage the bottom to be anything but docile in the play. There are no negative judgments in these statements; people are doing what they enjoy doing and it works for them. That is all that matters. My Lord on the other hand encourages his bottoms to be completely free in their expressions and behaviors during play. We do whatever we want and if it is something that he doesn’t like, he will control it. So if during play I get the urge to laugh, kick, punch, bite, pull hair, scream, curse, mock and even snatch the toy away, then I do it. If he doesn’t like it, he will control it. His bottoms are not docile but I wouldn’t call that “bitchy” either. We just have a very primal headspace during play. I don’t see how any of my observations fit in with your theory at all. quote: If you are a female sub, would you rather be flogged by male top wanting to give you pleasure or a male top wanting to give you pain? Do you try to get away from lashes or do you position your butt to eagerly accept the next lash? If you are female sub, do you perfer a real sexual sadist or a top who loves giving pleasure through a flogger? For me, pain is pleasurable. I prefer during a scene to be given pleasure through pain rather than just pleasurable sensations. When my Lord takes the flogger and whips it like you snap a towel, it is like multiple knives slicing across my back. It is one of the most painful things he does with a flogger and I love it. And I am more of the fight back than run kind of person, so I don’t try and get away. Define “real sexual sadist”? My Lord is a sadist. He is the only person that has ever played me and frankly, I don’t think there is any other top at this moment who can play me to the level that he does. That is not a statement to brag about his abilities, though he is pretty fucking awesome. It also isn’t meant to run anyone else down. He and I play to the level that we do because of the relationship that we are in. The connection we have allows us to play on the edges and have a great time. He doesn’t play with just anybody and he likes to have some kind of relationship and established trust between him and his bottom. He prefers to play with someone that will allow him to do whatever he wants during play and that takes trust and knowledge on both sides to make the scene fun for all. Knight's kyra

WhipTheHip -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/20/2006 6:21:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania You will definitely need more male "Tops" to answer, although my Daddy did above, and he doesn't seem to fit into your theory, and neither did my former dom, or any dom I have taken the time to get to know. Many doms are squicked by masochism., not all enjoy inflicting pain. I know this from when I was looking, many of the doms I talked to were not sadists at all This doesn't surprise me since most people into this are primarily into D/s, not S&M. There is a big difference between your average Dom and a Sexual Sadist. Part of my theory states that there are Dommes, but not many female sexual sadists. That Dommes mostly get off on control, not on really inflicting sexual pain. I think most male subs are really masochists, not true submissives. So there is incongruance between what Dommes are looking for and what most males subs are looking for. Now, a lot of male subs will say they are submissive, and they may even believe this themselves, but this is not really the case. When you dig deeper you find they only really want to be submissive part of the time-- the time they are engaged in sexual fantasy. Likewise there is a big difference between your average submissive female sub, and a sub who is a masochist. It would be interesting to see the distribution of submissives and masochists. It would also be interesting to see the if the more extreme submissives tend to be more masochistic or not. What I should do is make a ten question survey, and analyze it. To get accurate results I probably would need at least 30 people from each group.

ExSteelAgain -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/20/2006 6:58:01 AM)
About 90% of the time, I ‘m playing the sensation, endorphin building level slowly trying to give her pleasure through the pain until she spaces, if I’ve decided that I want to space her. That gives me pleasure. However, about 10% of the time I whip her harder than she can comfortably take. I want her to realize, it is going to hurt more than she wants and it is out of her control. Those times also give both of us pleasure, too. The thought that it can always be one of the hard times makes her stay on the edge, obeying, excited and makes it all real. I have been with subs who want it to be hard beyond their capacity all the time. In that case, I oblige them. It would be easy for me to go 90% hard whippings if that was what the relationship required. The thrill of any relationship comes from the perfect combination of easy, medium and hard play that makes her totally under your control.

MistressWolfen -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/20/2006 7:11:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip To get accurate results I probably would need at least 30 people from each group. To get anything even approaching reflective accuracy you need a subject pool of a minimum of 150.

Jasmyn -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/20/2006 7:15:01 AM)
Fem subs are just as want to be submissive sexually only as any fantasy driven male counterpart ... read a few 'sub vs slave' threads and you'll get the general idea ...but it's all good, fantasy and mutual attraction for said fantasy is hot... I don't look at that person and think they aren't 'real' or their submission in that moment isn't reality for them, and me because it's sexually motivated...their acqueince is as real as the boy in a collar cleaning the toilet with a soon to be patented combo toilet brush/butt plug all in one firmly in his err grasp. Being happily the sadist, and a demanding deserving bitch of my charges is a part of who I am as someone's Mistress ...something I can be ... deciding when and where and for whom I am that is what gives me the ability to control them ... and you can't have a d/s relationship without it. But if you're of the belief control is the motivator for fem doms, then are you trying to find out if the reverse is true of male doms, sadism been their driving force, not domination/control so you can confirm a schema or two you have about your own need for sadism without the need for a d/s exchange? But what is sexually sadistic? Is there a certain benchmark for the pain one must inflict before you can join the sexually sadistic club? Is digging my nails into his scrotum and along the length of his penis while telling him he dare not flinch, whacking his ball sac with a crop while his legs a tied spread eagle in the air while I sit on his face getting a lovely tongue lashing and coming on his face sadistic enough for you? .

KnightofMists -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/20/2006 7:20:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip It would be interesting to see the distribution of submissives and masochists. It would also be interesting to see the if the more extreme submissives tend to be more masochistic or not. What I should do is make a ten question survey, and analyze it. To get accurate results I probably would need at least 30 people from each group. Interesting??? I would say rather Pointlless! You continuely show a desire to establish some generalities and universal thoughts on how people function in this lifestyle. Frankly this is not going to get you any further ahead in understanding the one thing that matters.. Yourself. You can take all these groups and make subgroups of them... and then you can make subgroups of them and then subgroups of them and before you know it your are down to one group that has one person in it. So in the end it doesn't really matter how large of group you wish to start with. In the end.... the group only reflects a very limited and narrow aspect that unit them as a group. As you begin to look deeper the unity of group sufferes and you have to create those subgroups and so on and so on and so on. I am not a group... I am me... I am not a sexual Sadist... and I am a sexual Sadist. WAIT how can that be... oh my how can I be two labels at once ... oh god what is this neat order world coming to when we can't stay in the boxes we make for people. The fact is .. that I am Not a Sexual Sadist in that on many occasions I don't get sexually aroused when I enjoy SM. I enjoy it alot too! The fact is that I am a Sexual Sadist in that on many occasions I get sexually aroused when I enjoy SM.... I enjoy t alot too! Does one happen more than another? Well... I guess that depends on the measure of occurances or time one is considered. If I consider only one occurance... well guess that would mean that I am one and not the other. Should I consider 10 occurances... or maybe 100 or maybe a 1000 times... when is the number enough. But maybe it's just time... but what time. I have gone thru time periods that I enjoy my sexually arousal during SM a fair bit... and then and go thru time where there is no sexual arousal. Oh lets throw this into the mix... what about the partners I have.... could that have something to do with it. intimate partners.. male over female.... casual or long-term partners..... WAIT!! what am I doing here.... oh yeah... I am slowly dissecting the who group thing into subgroups... but instead of a group.. ITS a LABEL! I am slowly taking a label and suddenly I am this label and then this.... I take labels for what they are .... Limited views like looking though a window in the house. I see the house... I even can catch a room or two thru the windows.... but alas... until one is in the house... can you really enjoy what it is like in the house. Lots of rooms in a house.... some are nice and organised some are messy... some have a theme some are just are. people are alot of rooms and we can get a feel for a room looking through the window. However, it's a feel that is all... and I might be wrong.. but generally houses are more than one room and so are people. don't get so caught up in trying to undrstand one room.... for understand a room is not going to allow you to appreciate the House itself.

WhipTheHip -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/20/2006 7:28:23 AM)
Hi Sunshine, > I don't think I'd be with a "real" sexual sadist. I want someone who is in control all the time. I'm a real sexual sadist, and I am in control all the time, and have been my entire life. Even when I was a child, I was always responsible. That doesn't mean I wasn't a little wild. I still am. But I always know where to draw the line. I am not driven by my emotions or my sexual cravings, but by my intellect and by my principles. I indulge my sexual cravings if I find a willing partner. I do get pleasure from giving pleasure, but I get more pleasure from giving real pain. Yet, I don't engage in edge play. I never draw blood. I don't use needles or puncture the skin. I don't do anything that would leave permanent marks. I don't engage in scat. Some Doms are emotional sadists. I on the other hand can't tolerate anyone experiencing emotional pain. I feel the emotional pain of others as acutely as they do. So, the last thing I would want to cause anyone or any sub is emotional pain. When anyone experiences emotional pain, my first reaction is to comfort them. Please don't confuse sexual sadist with non-sexual sadist. I don't get off on seeing people suffer pain. Seeing a dentist drill in someone's tooth, makes me feel pain. I am a vegetarian because I don't want any animal to suffer for my pleasure. I have sacraficed a great deal to help people in need, and to rescue dogs, cats, turtles, and birds. > and doesn't ever give into the violence often associated with extreme sadism. Somehow, it sounds to me like you are confused. I am not a violent person. The thought of violence nauseates me. I don't watch violent television shows or violent movies. I am squimish and faint at the sight of blood. > Many "real" sexual sadists are in jail for non consensual acts. Many "real," dominant, aggressive people are in jail for non-consensual act. I readily admit to having all kinds of non-consensual fantasies, just like many females have non-consensual rape fantasies. If I hadn't been brought up the way I had, if I didn't have the moral principles I have, if I didn't fear and respect the law, if I wasn't good-natured, I could easily be a criminal. If my grandmother had testicles she would have been my grandfather. The truth is you would be hard-pressed to find other males as sweet, as loving, as sensitive, as caring, as comforting, as kind, as compassionate, as moral as I am. My life is not centered around fullfilling my sexual appetite, but helping others and lessening human and animal suffering. I don't see how being a real sexual sadist makes me a bad personl. People should be judged by what they do, not what they fantasize about, and not what they desire. > I am a maschochist, but not extreme. I am a sadist, but not extreme. I fantasize extreme things. Don't a lot of females fantasize being raped? Don't masochists fantasize having a lot of extreme things being done to them? As a sado-masochist, I fantasize having a lot of extreme things done to me. That doesn't mean I would ever really allow these things to be done. Just because we enjoy something in a fantasy does not mean we would enjoy it in reality. Can't we seperate fantasy from reality? A am much more a real sexual sadist than a sexual masochist. But if I were to be a bottom, I wouldn't have a safe word, and I would only play with a real sadist who enjoys inflcting pain, not givng pleasure. I wouldn't want someone who loves me or care about me to top me, I would rather be topped by bitch I dislike who has a lot of pent-up anger. I only do what is consensual, but the part I like best is when you are pushing the limits of a masochist. This is the point where pain is not so pleasureable, where they allow you to go for your sadistic pleasure. Some part of them may even crave it, and want it, though they don't really find it pleasurable. The pleasure they get from it is not the endorphins they get, but the pleasure they know they are giving me, and the pleasure they get from allowing their body to be used for sadistic pleasure. This is not to say that I don't get pleasure by flogging a female for her own sexual pleasure. I do. But when I do, there may be times when I am imagining I am really inflicting pain. I am able to use my powerful "Calvin" imagination to channel desires I have that orginate from a primal, primitive part of the brain, that might otherwise find expression in anti-social conduct. My "beast" is a fairly tame one, with a tail that wags. I have no fear of it acting on its own, like a Mr. Hyde. I just wish to add I get sexual pleasure from sexual sadism. Someone who just gets pleasure from inflicting pain is a sadist, and that is a major symptom of a personality disorder. With love, lashes and endless hugs. Michael

WhipTheHip -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/20/2006 7:53:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain About 90% of the time, I ‘m playing the sensation, endorphin building level slowly trying to give her pleasure through the pain until she spaces, if I’ve decided that I want to space her. That gives me pleasure. However, about 10% of the time I whip her harder than she can comfortably take. I want her to realize, it is going to hurt more than she wants and it is out of her control. Those times also give both of us pleasure, too. The thought that it can always be one of the hard times makes her stay on the edge, obeying, excited and makes it all real. I have been with subs who want it to be hard beyond their capacity all the time. In that case, I oblige them. It would be easy for me to go 90% hard whippings if that was what the relationship required. The thrill of any relationship comes from the perfect combination of easy, medium and hard play that makes her totally under your control. This is more or less what I do, except the following: "However, about 10% of the time I whip her harder than she can comfortably take, I want her to realize, it is going to hurt more than she wants and it is out of her control." In my case, 3% of the time I whip her harder than she can comfortably take, I do it with her consent for my sadistic pleasure, it has nothing to do with showing her I am in control, it has to do with my getting my sadistic pleasure after I have given her, her endorphin fix. She enjoys this part, not from the pleasure she is getting from it, but from the pleasure she is giving me, sort of like the pleasure a famale gets by giving head. The enjoyment from giving head, is mostly knowing your are pleaseing you partner. I think few people would enjoy giving head if they knew their partner was not getting anything from it. People can get sexual pleasure from giving sexual pleasure, and people can get sexual pleasure from receiving sexual pleasure. So, most of the time I am flogging a female, I am getting pleasure from giving her sexual pleasure, and she is getting pleasure from receiving sexual pleasure, but when it beomes consensual painful pain and is almost non-consensual, that is when I get sadistic pleasure, and she gets pleasure from allowing her body to be used for my sadistic pleasure. This is kind of complicated, but I hope I am writing clear enough to be understood. Best regards, Michael

WhipTheHip -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/20/2006 8:00:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MistressWolfen quote: ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip To get accurate results I probably would need at least 30 people from each group. To get anything even approaching reflective accuracy you need a subject pool of a minimum of 150. Normally, you only need 30 people to get meaningful results. I didn't pick this number randomly. It is a law in statistics. It is amazing how much information a random sample of 30 will tell you about a large population. But I would agree with you here because there is D/s and S&M. This makes analysis much more complicated. Ideally, a random sampling of 1,000 would be best. But even a sample as small as 30 could give a great deal of information.

WhipTheHip -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/20/2006 8:05:43 AM)
Hi Twice Happy, It appears you never understood my position correctly. Before you disagree with someone, it helps to know what they are saying. None of the answers here contradict my theory. If you think otherwise you didn't understand what I was saying. Here is a clue. I suspect most female subs into D/s do need a personal relationship with people they play with. On the other hand, I suspect that female subs who are not into D/s who are just into S&M are at times willing to have anyone top them so long as the person is competent with their tools and can be trusted not to violate their hard limits. Subs who are both into D/s and S&M fall into a gray area. Some of them may at times not care who tops them so long as the person is competent with their tools and can be trusted not to violate their hard limits. And some subs into both D/s and S&M may only scene with people they care about or love. It helps to understand others before you go ballastic. By the way, I did understand what you or whoever used the term "fuckbuddy" meant. I just strongly objected to it being used that way. I think it is wholly inappropriate. Just because someone scenes with someone they are not having a 24/7 relationship with does not mean they are fuckbuddy or they are looking for a fuckbuddy. You sound like a cop. Not every casual S&M scene takes place between fuckbuddies. I find your insistance that this is true to be highly offensive. Michael

Jasmyn -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/20/2006 8:09:15 AM)
but when it beomes consensual painful pain and is almost non-consensual, that is when I get sadistic pleasure, and she gets pleasure from allowing her body to be used for my sadistic pleasure. This is kind of complicated, but I hope I am writing clear enough to be understood. Very [:)] ...

SexyRed -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/20/2006 8:12:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip quote: ORIGINAL: MistressWolfen quote: ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip To get accurate results I probably would need at least 30 people from each group. To get anything even approaching reflective accuracy you need a subject pool of a minimum of 150. Normally, you only need 30 people to get meaningful results. I didn't pick this number randomly. It is a law in statistics. It is amazing how much information a random sample of 30 will tell you about a large population. But I would agree with you here because there is D/s and S&M. This makes analysis much more complicated. Ideally, a random sampling of 1,000 would be best. But even a sample as small as 30 could give a great deal of information. What mystifies me is why you seem to want to analyze other people so much; it often sounds as if you are a market researcher on these boards. I don't care why anyone does anything, I only wish to know myself and those I get involved with. Sample size? Statistics? Sounds like work to me.

twicehappy -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/20/2006 8:18:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip It appears you never understood my position correctly. quote: ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip Their only concern is that the top be competent with the tools of the trade, and not exceed their hard limits. If you read the other thread I started, you will see this is the case. quote: ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip Their only concern is that the top be competent with the tools of the trade, and not exceed their hard limits. If you read the other thread I started, you will see this is the case. Exactly what did i misunderstand?

kyraofMists -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/20/2006 8:37:19 AM)
Whip, In reading your post to Sunshine, I still have no idea what you consider "real sexual sadism" to be. In one paragraph you call your self a "real sexual sadist" and then in another paragraph you say that you "don't get off on seeing people suffer pain." What is "real sexual sadism" to you?

Sinergy -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/20/2006 8:54:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists I am not a group... I am me... I am not a sexual Sadist... and I am a sexual Sadist. WAIT how can that be... oh my how can I be two labels at once ... oh god what is this neat order world coming to when we can't stay in the boxes we make for people. The fact is .. that I am Not a Sexual Sadist in that on many occasions I don't get sexually aroused when I enjoy SM. I enjoy it alot too! The fact is that I am a Sexual Sadist in that on many occasions I get sexually aroused when I enjoy SM.... I enjoy t alot too! Ozymandias by Percy Bysshe Shelley I met a traveller from an antique land Who said: "Two vast and trunkless legs of stone Stand in the desert. Near them, on the sand, Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown, And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command, Tell that its sculptor well those passions read Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things. The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed. And on the pedestal these words appear: 'My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings: Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!' Nothing beside remains. Round the decay Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare The lone and level sands stretch far away It always fascinates me when people attempt to take something and beat it down into some little, easily understood (or ruled) box that will stand the tests of time. I agree with KnightOfMists. I contain multitudes, and relish the diversity which can be found in any individual person. The people who frighten me are those who stridently insist they only do or are X. Wait a few days, and see them suddenly morph into Y. Of course, then the observer has to listen to them stridently insist that they only do or are Y. Who can keep track of it all? Just me, etc. Sinergy

MzTlaz -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/20/2006 9:11:11 AM)
Why the hell would I be doing anything or wasting my time with someone I dislike? As for what type of submissive I enjoy playing with and how....that depends on my mood, their mood and my reaction to it.

RavenMuse -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/20/2006 9:17:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy I agree with KnightOfMists. I contain multitudes, Same here. Whilst I far prefer play when it involves a girl of MINE, where I know her limits and reactions, her emotional responce, her sounds and movements intimately already and the play is extending that, growing it, adding to an ongoing experience and dynamic between us. Does that mean I get nothing out of being at a club and finding some cute little sub kneeling at My feet begging to be played with? Hell no, if I am in the mood I can very much enjoy that too. The world doesn't fit into pigeonholes, it isn't black and white, but rather a subtle interplay of beautiful greys.

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