RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom?

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juliaoceania -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/20/2006 2:25:52 PM)
quote: What I mean by that is someone who gets pleasure from inflicting sexual pain for their own pleasure, not for their sub's pleasure, not to control the sub, and not to show her whose boss. This is my personal opinion. There in lies the trouble, others used established definitions instead of trying to make others fit into their definitions. I pasted the definition of masochism and sadism for you, but OH, yes I forgot.. Michael's definitions are superior to the standard ones that most people employ. I do not understand why you are having so much trouble understanding why people are put off by you

nefertari -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/20/2006 2:27:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip Dear Slipstreme, quote: >> I have heard male and female bottoms call themselves "subs" when they are not >> really submissive. I have heard "sub" used to desribe the receiving partner. > > It is often used as a catch all term. Thank you, Slipstreme. Sometimes, I think people disagree with me because I rub them the wrong way, and they just want to be contrary, and give me a hard time. I am not quite sure what a fury is. I think it is people who dress up in fur costumes, take on animal personas. I think they once had a big internal squabble. I am still not sure what it is really all about. What I can say is this. I try to be super-accepting, and non-judgmental. I befriend the friendless, the persecuted, the down-trodden, the needy, orphan, the abused, and the widow. I offer my friendship to just about everyone, and I make for a very loyal friend doing all I can to help everyone I can. Someone at a government agency told me I do more for complete strangers than most parents do for one of their own children. This was in regard to helping severely mentally-disturbed, homeless, drug addicts, and alcoholics. Warm regards, Michael Maybe you rub people the wrong way because you seem to be looking for ways to justify your lifestyle choice and you manage to insult a large group of people in the process. That above quote is all me, me, me. I'm so super nice and super compassionate and super empathetic and super giving and I'm by far the best Dom out there because of it. I have news for you. Any Dom worth his salt is all of those things. Did you really think you were alone in that? You've talked about signs of personality disoders...more than once. Then I'm sure you're familiar with Narcissitic Personality Disorder. Just something to think about.... By the way, I'm not a Top, a Domme or a Sadist, but you seem to bring all of that out in me. I'm thinking it wouldn't be too hard to find someone who would want to inflict some pain on you.... Just my two cents.

WhipTheHip -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/20/2006 2:29:30 PM)
> Not sure why this would be considered “non-consensual”. If > you consent to it and never remove your consent, then it is > still all consensual. Because I would revoke my consent while it was happening, if I could, and I would regret having given my consent as soon as the scene started, as soon as I could not longer back out. I would be thinking to myself, "Oh Shit" this was a big mistake, how do I get out of it, and get it to stop. Because while it is happening, I want it to stop immediately and would do anything and everything I could to get it to stop. The only thing that makes it consensual is my giving consent before the scene. Aside for that consent they are really dealing with a major unwilling participant. I know the reality will be different than my fantasy, I know I will not like the reality. That is why if I ever go through with it, I will probably will never do it again.

catize -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/20/2006 2:45:11 PM)
quote: I have to admit that it does surprise me a little bit, but hey, I never claimed to know everything. I learn new things every day. Whenever I speak, all I can do is speak from what I know, from what I have heard from others, and from own experience with people in the scene, however limited that may be. As I have mentioned to others, you obviously do not listen well. By your own admission (see bold words above) you have limited experience. I would guess that as you read our posts you spend your time constructing your arguments in your head instead of absorbing what is written. You have been told repeatedly here by several bottoms that they are not submissive in any way........you continue to argue about it. I am submissive, but object to the term 'sub', as many other submissives do. You ignored that and continue to refer to 'subs'. You have spent days typing post after post about your concepts of domination and submission, but had to ask what M/s and s/m are. Your penchant for pedantic lecturing to those who have more experience than you simply makes it seem that you are not here to learn but to preach at us. I would suggest you read and think about the topics written here. I am not telling you to agree with everything, but be a lot more open minded and consider the other poster's points of view. Indeed, the fact that you are not 'shocked but surprised' that there are many wonderful human beings who are dominants explains a lot about some of your posts. But again, you become a bit argumentative when you question the validity of our statements that our dominants make us happy in many ways. The truth of the matter is, there are many different types of dominants and submissives. There are some D/s, M/s styles that I could not live in, but that doesn't negate the fact that those people are extremely happy with their relationship. It is not your place to assert that you are the 'best' type of dominant. We tend to find the dominant or submissive who meets our own standards of WIITWD. For many, happiness is not a warm puppy, but a wolf who will rip us with sharp teeth is what we crave. (No insult meant to the furries)

catize -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/20/2006 2:52:01 PM)
quote: By the way, I'm not a Top, a Domme or a Sadist, but you seem to bring all of that out in me. I'm thinking it wouldn't be too hard to find someone who would want to inflict some pain on you.... LOL, nefertari, I'm with you on this. He makes me want to put on some domme boots, tie his hands behind his back (so he can't type), blindfold and gag him and make him listen to reason!

juliaoceania -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/20/2006 2:53:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SusanofO juliaoceania: Hee hee. I am kind of "into" pain, but am not sure how to classify myself. After reading a post a few weeks ago on how stupid it can end up being for some submissives to declare themselves a masochist, when they don't really know if it's true or not, especially when playing with an un-bending, all-the-time Sadist, I am not sure I'd ever declare myself a masochist. But, I have found I can "enjoy" pain, in small doses, of course. - Susan There is a difference between defining yourself as a high pain tolerance pain slut and telling a top that you are a masochist. Pain tolerances shift from scene to scene. A "real pain slut" may have a night where the pain isn't pleasurable at all, or they just cannot take much. That is why warmup is essential before someone unknown to you starts wailing on you. And even if it is a regular partner, not all experiences will be the same. Sometimes being whipped with stingy implements bugs me to no end in a bad way.. sometimes I beg for more. My nipples can take a lot more pain than my ass. It depends on a lot of factors. I do not classify myself as a pain slut, but I could probably become one if someone pushed my pain tolerance all the time. That isn't a goal of mine..Or of my Daddy's. It doesn't matter what your pain tolerance is to define yourself as a masochist, it matters that you enjoy pain at all. That is the standard definition... but people should label themselves as they see themselves. For me to state that someone else is a masochist isn't for me to do. I have accepted this aspect of my sexuality, but it is only ONE aspect, and my submission is higher on the scale of importance to me. One does not exclude the other. Just some thoughts.

WhipTheHip -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/20/2006 2:54:41 PM)
> and I'm by far the best Dom out there because of it. I have news for you. > Any Dom worth his salt is all of those things. It is my belief I would be the least wanted Dom out there because of those traits. > Did you really think you were alone in that? No. I NEVER thought that. I'd have to meet every person in the world to think such a thing. All I can say is in all my years of living, I've met very few people who care about others as much as I do. And all the macho, dominant guys I have ever encountered have all been testi, super aggressive, quick to anger, selfish and self-centered. I am happy your experience is different than mine. I would be even happier to learn my sample was skewed, or that I am somehow mistaken. > You've talked about signs of personality disoders...more than once. > Then I'm sure you're familiar with Narcissitic Personality Disorder. > Just something to think about.... I don't suffer from any personality disorder but have features from two: Dependant, and Self-Defeating. When it comes to Narcissistic Personality Disorder, my score is less than that of the average person. I would never try to diagnose a personality disorder for someone I never met. Nor would I guess at such things. There are very specific criteria for every personality disorder, and test questions have to normalized, and verified. This is a free country, and you can believe whatever you like. --Michael

sublizzie -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/20/2006 2:56:27 PM)
I only participate in research projects where I get paid to do so. Generally I make $300+ per project. When you are ready to pay good hard cash, I might be interested. There's got to be other ways to make extra money for my new corset than writing Sunday School lessons.

kyraofMists -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/20/2006 2:56:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip > But none of this answers the actual question I asked of what > is “real sexual sadism”? Can you answer that? What I mean by that is someone who gets pleasure from inflicting sexual pain for their own pleasure, not for their sub's pleasure, not to control the sub, and not to show her whose boss. Do you realize that this has some striking differences to the published definition and the criteria laid out in the DSM? A sexual sadist is someone who gets sexual pleasure or gratification from inflicting pain and suffering on someone. This can also include humiliation. It does not describe the type of pain inflicted or limit that pain to only being sexual in nature. In the strict definition of the phrase, the dentist who gets sexual pleasure from causing his patients pain while they are having dental work done is a sexual sadist. The definition also does not say how the person receiving the pain and suffering feels about it. In essence your definition is only your own and cannot be used to define or categorize any other sexual sadist. Your definition is real to you but may not fit another and trying to categorize the people you interact with on this board by your definition will be an exercise in futility. quote: I will always feel guilty for being a sexual sadist. That is part of my nature, and part of my moral code. I find that very sad that you are unable to accept who you are and think that you have to feel guilty for it. Knight's kyra

nefertari -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/20/2006 3:00:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip I would be even happier to learn my sample was skewed, or that I am somehow mistaken. I don't suffer from any personality disorder but have features from two: Dependant, and Self-Defeating. When it comes to Narcissistic Personality Disorder, my score is less than that of the average person. I would never try to diagnose a personality disorder for someone I never met. Nor would I guess at such things. There are very specific criteria for every personality disorder, and test questions have to normalized, and verified. This is a free country, and you can believe whatever you like. --Michael Several people here have told you that you are mistaken. You refuse to listen. Self-Defeating Personality Disorder isn't listed in my DSM-IV. Don't think it exists.

juliaoceania -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/20/2006 3:01:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip > and I'm by far the best Dom out there because of it. I have news for you. > Any Dom worth his salt is all of those things. It is my belief I would be the least wanted Dom out there because of those traits. > Did you really think you were alone in that? No. I NEVER thought that. I'd have to meet every person in the world to think such a thing. All I can say is in all my years of living, I've met very few people who care about others as much as I do. And all the macho, dominant guys I have ever encountered have all been testi, super aggressive, quick to anger, selfish and self-centered. I am happy your experience is different than mine. I would be even happier to learn my sample was skewed, or that I am somehow mistaken. I --Michael You haven't been around a lot of dominant men. As far as you caring about others more than anyone else you know, all I can say is WOW. I would never be so egotistical to think I was more caring, loving, compassionate, more giving than most others. It just isn't in me to believe I am as good as it gets on Planet Earth. I have been around a lot of caring and giving people in this world, by choice I gravitate to people like this through my charity work an activism... but not one of them claimed to be somehow "more" than another. They were usually busy building up others and did not think this detracted from themselves. Unbelievable.

juliaoceania -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/20/2006 3:02:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kyraofMists quote: ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip > But none of this answers the actual question I asked of what > is “real sexual sadism”? Can you answer that? What I mean by that is someone who gets pleasure from inflicting sexual pain for their own pleasure, not for their sub's pleasure, not to control the sub, and not to show her whose boss. Do you realize that this has some striking differences to the published definition and the criteria laid out in the DSM? A sexual sadist is someone who gets sexual pleasure or gratification from inflicting pain and suffering on someone. This can also include humiliation. It does not describe the type of pain inflicted or limit that pain to only being sexual in nature. In the strict definition of the phrase, the dentist who gets sexual pleasure from causing his patients pain while they are having dental work done is a sexual sadist. The definition also does not say how the person receiving the pain and suffering feels about it. In essence your definition is only your own and cannot be used to define or categorize any other sexual sadist. Your definition is real to you but may not fit another and trying to categorize the people you interact with on this board by your definition will be an exercise in futility. quote: I will always feel guilty for being a sexual sadist. That is part of my nature, and part of my moral code. I find that very sad that you are unable to accept who you are and think that you have to feel guilty for it. Knight's kyra I cut and pasted the definition, he never responded

heartfeltsub -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/20/2006 3:09:26 PM)
Though i think what y'all Julia, Catize, Kyra et al. are doing is admirable trying to get through to Michael, y'all must be more masochistic than i because after a while i get tired of beating my head against a stone wall. Good luck to you.

kyraofMists -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/20/2006 3:09:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania I cut and pasted the definition, he never responded Yes, I noticed. That is why I kept pushing to get his definition. I think most of us knew by his posts that it had some significant differences than the published definition. Of course I am also still waiting for him to clear up some inconsistencies on the Unicorn thread from yesterday.

juliaoceania -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/20/2006 3:12:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kyraofMists quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania I cut and pasted the definition, he never responded Yes, I noticed. That is why I kept pushing to get his definition. I think most of us knew by his posts that it had some significant differences than the published definition. Of course I am also still waiting for him to clear up some inconsistencies on the Unicorn thread from yesterday. Good luck with that Kyra[sm=biggrin.gif]

kyraofMists -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/20/2006 3:12:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub Though i think what y'all Julia, Catize, Kyra et al. are doing is admirable trying to get through to Michael, y'all must be more masochistic than i because after a while i get tired of beating my head against a stone wall. Good luck to you. g or maybe it is that I am a little bit sadistic myself and I am enjoying this immensely.

juliaoceania -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/20/2006 3:13:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kyraofMists quote: ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub Though i think what y'all Julia, Catize, Kyra et al. are doing is admirable trying to get through to Michael, y'all must be more masochistic than i because after a while i get tired of beating my head against a stone wall. Good luck to you. g or maybe it is that I am a little bit sadistic myself and I am enjoying this immensely. Me too, I am such a bad girl

WhipTheHip -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/20/2006 3:16:45 PM)
Hi Catzie, > You have been told repeatedly here by several bottoms that they are > not submissive in any way........you continue to argue about it. Perhaps, just perhaps, you haven't understood what I've been saying. I never said all bottoms are submissive. I never said anything remotely like this. > I am submissive, but object to the term 'sub', as many other submissives do. You > ignored that and continue to refer to 'subs'. You can object all you like. Slipstreme agrees with me on this, and I am sure there are others. It is often used as a "catch-all" term. I use it as a catch-all term, and many here use it as a "catch-all" term. You don't have to follow me, and I don't have to follow you. I also don't know why you think you have more experience and knowledge than I do. You don't even know me. I tend to under-state things rather than over-state them. Best regards, Michael

catize -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/20/2006 3:17:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: ORIGINAL: kyraofMists quote: ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub Though i think what y'all Julia, Catize, Kyra et al. are doing is admirable trying to get through to Michael, y'all must be more masochistic than i because after a while i get tired of beating my head against a stone wall. Good luck to you. g or maybe it is that I am a little bit sadistic myself and I am enjoying this immensely. Me too, I am such a bad girl [image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m25.gif[/image]

WhipTheHip -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/20/2006 3:22:20 PM)
Dear Catize, > But again, you become a bit argumentative when you question > the validity of our statements that our dominants make us happy > in many ways. You know I never questioned this. I will send you $100 if you can find where I did. It seems you are guilty of the very thing you accused me of. Best regards, Michael

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