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RE: Sorry, occasionally I do find myself being a bit of... - 8/21/2006 6:09:41 AM   
BrutalAntipathy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

Being a homosexual is not condemned in the Bible.  Acting on it is.  See 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 and 1 Timothy 1:9-11.  Romans 1:18-32 explains that homosexuality was brought about as a result of sin.

The Roman Catholic church has nothing to do with it.  They are not the final authority, as much as they would like to think so. 


Romans and Acts were written by Paul, a man who had never met Yeshuah ( Jesus ), and frequently contradicted the lessons that Yeshuah stressed, as his agenda was quite different from that of the apocalypticist preachings of Yeshuah. Timothy, or Timotheus of Lystra, was a follower of Paul's, with the same jaded opinions.
 
I have often argued in theologicial debate that Christians do not exist. What we have today are Paulists that ignore the teachings of Yeshuah, and follow instead the less self critical. far more bigoted, opinions of Paul. After all, Yeshuah instructed his followers to cast aside their possessions and follow him instead. He also said that the removal of an offending body part was preferable to hell. But what person has not used their eyes to covet or commit mental adultery? What person has not masturbated? Show me a blind, handless, homeless person, and i'll show you a real Christian.

(in reply to SirKenin)
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RE: Sorry, occasionally I do find myself being a bit of... - 8/21/2006 6:20:00 AM   
SirKenin


Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline 		Paul met God on the way to Damascus.  His original name was Saul, and he was infamous for persecuting the Jews.  God spoke to him (you can read all about it in Acts 9:1:31), converted him and renamed him.  He sent Paul out with a mission, to minister to the Gentiles and speak God's word.

Paul wrote the words in his letter to the Corinthians as an outcry against the blatant homosexuality of the Roman emperors.  Herod, for instance, had a young boy castrated and had a public marriage ceremony to make him his wife.  He later divorced him to become the wife of some other man.  This is one of 14 examples.  Paul declared that these types of men would never see the gates of Heaven.

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RE: Sorry, occasionally I do find myself being a bit of... - 8/21/2006 6:22:18 AM   
twicehappy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

Agree to disagree


My advice exactly!

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RE: Sorry, occasionally I do find myself being a bit of... - 8/21/2006 6:31:01 AM   
BrutalAntipathy


Posts: 412
Joined: 7/8/2005
Status: offline 		Paul supposedly met Yeshuah on the road. Of course he couldn't get his story straight, seeing how at one point he claimed to have only heard him, and later claimed to have seen him as well. Add to that the fact that most of Paul's messages were virtually the opposite of what Yeshuah preached, and it is a pretty safe bet that Paul was a lying jerkoff that wouldn't have known Yeshuah had Yeshuah bitten him on the ass. So what we have is not Yeshuah saying that gays are bad, but Paul saying that he saw Yeshuah, and oh, by the way, gays are bad. This is Paul's opinion and pronouncement, not Yeshuah's. Nice try though, Paulist. :)

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RE: Sorry, occasionally I do find myself being a bit of... - 8/21/2006 6:57:05 AM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BrutalAntipathy

Paul supposedly met Yeshuah on the road. ... Add to that the fact that most of Paul's messages were virtually the opposite of what Yeshuah preached ... So what we have is not Yeshuah saying that gays are bad, but Paul saying that ... oh, by the way, gays are bad. This is Paul's opinion and pronouncement, not Yeshuah's. Nice try though, Paulist. :)

Paul had a (religious) experience on the road.
I suspect that as a consequence he was transformed into an incarnation of the Creator. As such his statement that gays are bad surprises me, as he must have created them himself in his original incarnation. Did he cling to his previous, human convictions, or did someone else - Timothy? - put these words in his mouth? Anyway, that was two thousand years ago. Meanwhile Paul may have changed his mind.
 
 

(in reply to BrutalAntipathy)
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RE: Sorry, occasionally I do find myself being a bit of... - 8/21/2006 7:15:13 AM   
SirKenin


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From: Barrie, ON Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BrutalAntipathy

Paul supposedly met Yeshuah on the road. Of course he couldn't get his story straight, seeing how at one point he claimed to have only heard him, and later claimed to have seen him as well. Add to that the fact that most of Paul's messages were virtually the opposite of what Yeshuah preached, and it is a pretty safe bet that Paul was a lying jerkoff that wouldn't have known Yeshuah had Yeshuah bitten him on the ass. So what we have is not Yeshuah saying that gays are bad, but Paul saying that he saw Yeshuah, and oh, by the way, gays are bad. This is Paul's opinion and pronouncement, not Yeshuah's. Nice try though, Paulist. :)


You know, seeing as how I am providing references, how about you start doing the same?  It might add some credibility to what you are saying.  Seeing as how Luke wrote the book of Acts and Theophilus was the intended reader, what exactly did Paul have to gain?  Your theory makes no bloody sense.  You are just arguing for the sake of arguing, without really knowing any of your history or the facts involved.  I think Estring's advice is best.

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RE: Sorry, occasionally I do find myself being a bit of... - 8/21/2006 7:40:49 AM   
darkinshadows


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quote:

Paul wrote the words in his letter to the Corinthians as an outcry against the blatant homosexuality of the Roman emperors.  Herod, for instance, had a young boy castrated and had a public marriage ceremony to make him his wife.  He later divorced him to become the wife of some other man.  This is one of 14 examples.  Paul declared that these types of men would never see the gates of Heaven.

*does a big cheesy grin*
Now I am so not going through this whole topic again - as I am just boringly stubbon on it.
However, your post shows not homosexuality, but the corruption of slaves plus a minor... child abuse.
 
Just shows that - as scholars have been discussing for years - that homosexuality was not the issue (lets not go through the whole 'what the words mean' again debate) - but the corruption and abuse of children and slaves/slavery itself.
 
Peace and Rapture


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...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

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RE: Sorry, occasionally I do find myself being a bit of... - 8/21/2006 8:09:28 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
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Status: offline 		Or put them to the sword, to return the favor they so lavishly heaped upon us, eh, IB?

LOL,
Ron 

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RE: Sorry, occasionally I do find myself being a bit of... - 8/21/2006 8:40:05 AM   
BrutalAntipathy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

quote:

ORIGINAL: BrutalAntipathy

Paul supposedly met Yeshuah on the road. Of course he couldn't get his story straight, seeing how at one point he claimed to have only heard him, and later claimed to have seen him as well. Add to that the fact that most of Paul's messages were virtually the opposite of what Yeshuah preached, and it is a pretty safe bet that Paul was a lying jerkoff that wouldn't have known Yeshuah had Yeshuah bitten him on the ass. So what we have is not Yeshuah saying that gays are bad, but Paul saying that he saw Yeshuah, and oh, by the way, gays are bad. This is Paul's opinion and pronouncement, not Yeshuah's. Nice try though, Paulist. :)



You know, seeing as how I am providing references, how about you start doing the same?  It might add some credibility to what you are saying.  Seeing as how Luke wrote the book of Acts and Theophilus was the intended reader, what exactly did Paul have to gain?  Your theory makes no bloody sense.  You are just arguing for the sake of arguing, without really knowing any of your history or the facts involved.  I think Estring's advice is best.


Right on about Luke, my mistake. But since you ask for references., didn't you bother reading the Bible?  Here are a few for you.
 
Luke 20:38 Now he is not God of the dead, but the living.
Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and the living.
 
 
Matthew 5:7 Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.
Romans 9:15-16 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So it depends not upon man's will or exertion, but upon God's mercy.
 
Matthew 12:37 for by your words will you be justified, and by your words will you be condemned
Romans 3:24 they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is Christ Jesus.
 
Matthew 23:9 and call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.
1 Cor 4:15 For though you have contless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in  Christ Jesus through the gospel.
 
 
Furthermore, how can I provide references to Yeshuah never condemning homosexuality? Since he NEVER MENTIONED IT, it is rather difficult to find a reference.
 
Perhaps it would serve you best to stick to attempting to prove your point and avoiding ad hominems. Personal attacks are the last resort of a person that has already lost a debate.
 


(in reply to SirKenin)
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RE: Sorry, occasionally I do find myself being a bit of... - 8/21/2006 9:12:59 AM   
caitlyn


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Joined: 12/22/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LTRsubNW
How do you deal with someone who has their dictum encrypted, can't let go of their edicts as they've been informed, you've already covered all the facts of science....

How do you deal with someone like this...with love?


Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Luke 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.
39 And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?
40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.
41 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
42 Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.

The Bible has some very kind and helpful ways of telling people to shut the fuck up and mind their own fucking business.

(in reply to LTRsubNW)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Sorry, occasionally I do find myself being a bit of... - 8/21/2006 9:15:05 AM   
SirKenin


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Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

quote:

Paul wrote the words in his letter to the Corinthians as an outcry against the blatant homosexuality of the Roman emperors.  Herod, for instance, had a young boy castrated and had a public marriage ceremony to make him his wife.  He later divorced him to become the wife of some other man.  This is one of 14 examples.  Paul declared that these types of men would never see the gates of Heaven.

*does a big cheesy grin*
Now I am so not going through this whole topic again - as I am just boringly stubbon on it.
However, your post shows not homosexuality, but the corruption of slaves plus a minor... child abuse.
 
Just shows that - as scholars have been discussing for years - that homosexuality was not the issue (lets not go through the whole 'what the words mean' again debate) - but the corruption and abuse of children and slaves/slavery itself.
 
Peace and Rapture



For one, I goofed.. It was not Herod, it was Nero... 

For another, it was not the corruption of children, it was the corruption of Roman emperors that Paul was crying out against.

_____________________________

Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Sorry, occasionally I do find myself being a bit of... - 8/21/2006 9:28:51 AM   
SirKenin


Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline 		Brutal, your references do not prove your point at all.

First, I am not judging.  I am merely quoting what Paul said.  It is not up to Me, it is up to God, so that reference means nothing.

Second, mercy has nothing to do with it.  It is not I that am not showing mercy.  It is God.

Third, God directed Paul to speak these things to the Corinthian church.  When Paul is speaking his own opinion, he clearly states "I, not the Lord" (you can see this in 1 Corinthians 7:10).  This is not the case in either 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 or 1 Timothy.

It says that you are justified by grace, that is true.  However, we are also instructed not to test God's grace by continually sinning.  You conveniently left that part out.  The point is this.  It is not impossible for a homosexual to enter Heaven, but he must know that he needs to turn his back on what he is doing and walk the straight and narrow again.

The fact that Jesus never mentioned it means nothing.  That was not his mission.  His mission was to bring salvation to the Jews and attack the ministry of the Scribes and Pharisees, the two most powerful factions in the land.  That is why he was hated so much (liken it, if you would, to the USA marching into Iraq and threatening the Sunni stranglehold on the country) and eventually put to death.

< Message edited by SirKenin -- 8/21/2006 9:30:21 AM >

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Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

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RE: Sorry, occasionally I do find myself being a bit of... - 8/21/2006 9:51:24 AM   
CrappyDom


Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		If the mother of paul had swollowed instead, the world would be a vastly better place.  Imagine if people actually acted a tiny bit like Jesus.

Of course it might require Republicans to throw out the moneychangers and we know how much they look forward to entering heaven as rich men.

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RE: Sorry, occasionally I do find myself being a bit of... - 8/21/2006 9:58:15 AM   
twicehappy


Posts: 2706
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		I am not a Christian but didn't Jesus condense the commandments to one?

LOVE ONE ANOTHER.
 
"WHY IS THERE ENOUGH RELIGION IN THE WORLD TO INCITE WAR BUT NOT TOLERANCE?".
 
 
A quote from one of my favorite tee shirts. 

_____________________________

Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.

The human heart is not a finite container but an ever expanding universe with all the stars contained there in.

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RE: Sorry, occasionally I do find myself being a bit of... - 8/21/2006 10:00:25 AM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Lets throw the monkey wrench of personal understanding into the mix.

? what homosexuals did Paul know/ see?

Conjecture, The majority of the homosexuals known to people (out of the closet) at the time seem to have been male prostitutes working for the temples of other gods. Seems that they would be "damned" not for their choice of sexual partners but for thier involvement in providing financial support for the temples of rival gods. The coruption of a man visiting such a prostitute also tends to hit the same note, paying thithes, providing financial support to a rival god.

Taken in their historic context most anti homosexual statements in the bible tend to focus not on homosexuality itself but on the historic social context surounding homosexuality. Prostitution, temple support, nation building (levitical), putting ones sexual activity above one's spiritual well being etc. All things that are sins for more heterosexuals than homosexuals.

But as to trying to explain it to a bible beater? Most often it is a futile exercise, and rarely worth the effort unless you are doing it for entertainment purposes.

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RE: Sorry, occasionally I do find myself being a bit of... - 8/21/2006 10:02:58 AM   
CrappyDom


Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		I think we should bring all of the old testament back, lets start stoning women and killing crippled children.

Face it, God is one evil sick fuck.

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RE: Sorry, occasionally I do find myself being a bit of... - 8/21/2006 10:05:11 AM   
BrutalAntipathy


Posts: 412
Joined: 7/8/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

Brutal, your references do not prove your point at all.

First, I am not judging.  I am merely quoting what Paul said.  It is not up to Me, it is up to God, so that reference means nothing.

Second, mercy has nothing to do with it.  It is not I that am not showing mercy.  It is God.

Third, God directed Paul to speak these things to the Corinthian church.  When Paul is speaking his own opinion, he clearly states "I, not the Lord" (you can see this in 1 Corinthians 7:10).  This is not the case in either 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 or 1 Timothy.

It says that you are justified by grace, that is true.  However, we are also instructed not to test God's grace by continually sinning.  You conveniently left that part out.  The point is this.  It is not impossible for a homosexual to enter Heaven, but he must know that he needs to turn his back on what he is doing and walk the straight and narrow again.

The fact that Jesus never mentioned it means nothing.  That was not his mission.  His mission was to bring salvation to the Jews and attack the ministry of the Scribes and Pharisees, the two most powerful factions in the land.  That is why he was hated so much (liken it, if you would, to the USA marching into Iraq and threatening the Sunni stranglehold on the country) and eventually put to death.


I fear that you missed my point entirely. My point was that Paul contradicts Yeshuah. Why would the son of God, or God Imncarnate if you wish, say one thing, then recant during a theophany to Paul later? This is why I conclude that Paul was a liar that did not practice the teachings of Yeshuah, claiming the theophany only to gain access to the hachling church in order to further his own goals. His goals were more political than those of his opponents such as Luke, who was focusing on the spiritual. His goals also served to spare the church from ultimate destruction by the Roman's, as it was more in accordance with their political structure than was Yeshuah's later messages which sounded to Roman ears like encouragement of rebellion. In the end, Paul won out over James and other detractors, and Christians have been Paulists ever since.

I am by no means the first to arrive at this conclusion.
 
"Where possible Paul avoids quoting the teaching of Jesus, in fact even mentioning it. If we had to rely on Paul, we should not know that Jesus taught in parables, had delivered the sermon on the mount, and had taught His disciples the 'Our Father.' Even where they are specially relevant, Paul passes over the words of the Lord."__Albert Sweitzer
 
"Paul hardly ever allows the real Jesus of Nazareth to get a word in.__ Carl Jung
 
"No sooner had Jesus knocked over the dragon of superstition than Paul boldly set it on its legs again in the name of Jesus."__ George Bernard Shaw
 
"Paul's words are not the Words of God.
They are the words of Paul- a vast difference."__ Bishop ( Episcopol ) John S. Spong
 
"Paul was the first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus."__Thomas Jefferson
 
"My long-time view about Christianity is that it represents an amalgam of two seemingly immiscible parts--the religion of Jesus and the religion of Paul. Thomas Jefferson attempted to excise the Pauline parts of the New Testament. There wasn't much left when he was done, but it was an inspiring document."__Carl Sagan

(in reply to SirKenin)
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RE: Sorry, occasionally I do find myself being a bit of... - 8/21/2006 10:06:54 AM   
SirKenin


Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: twicehappy

I am not a Christian but didn't Jesus condense the commandments to one?

LOVE ONE ANOTHER.
 
"WHY IS THERE ENOUGH RELIGION IN THE WORLD TO INCITE WAR BUT NOT TOLERANCE?".
 
 
A quote from one of my favorite tee shirts. 


I do not think this has anything to do with love.  Paul never taught to not love anyone.  He taught that people that followed the Roman emperors example would not inherit the kingdom of Heaven.  I see nothing wrong with loving them as we love ourselves.  Two completely different concepts from what I can see.  At least it had better be that way or I am screwed..

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Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Sorry, occasionally I do find myself being a bit of... - 8/21/2006 10:29:23 AM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

quote:

ORIGINAL: twicehappy

I am not a Christian but didn't Jesus condense the commandments to one?

LOVE ONE ANOTHER.
 
"WHY IS THERE ENOUGH RELIGION IN THE WORLD TO INCITE WAR BUT NOT TOLERANCE?".
 
 
A quote from one of my favorite tee shirts. 


I do not think this has anything to do with love.  Paul never taught to not love anyone.  He taught that people that followed the Roman emperors example would not inherit the kingdom of Heaven.  I see nothing wrong with loving them as we love ourselves.  Two completely different concepts from what I can see.  At least it had better be that way or I am screwed..

It has EVERYTHING to do with love.
 
'… In the beginning was the word and the word was God… '
John 1:1
 
Original Aramaic text that word was Yahweh or Jehovah which means ‘light’ and ‘love’.
To deny that Love has nothing to do with anything, denys God.
 
Peace and Rapture
 

_____________________________
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RE: Sorry, occasionally I do find myself being a bit of... - 8/21/2006 10:43:48 AM   
Dauric


Posts: 254
Joined: 7/13/2006
Status: offline 		Just because of all the passage quotes in this thread I thought of this:
(I forget who posted this originally, I copied it in to a text file because I thought it was very good.)

A very well written letter to our dearest of Presidents: Mr. George W. Bush.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Dear President Bush,
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from you, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly rejects it...End of debate.
I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God's Law and how to follow them:
1.) Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
2.) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
3.) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness, Leviticus 15: 19-24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
4.) When I burn a bull on the alter as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord- Leviticus 1:9. The problem is, my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
5.) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?
6.) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination-Leviticus 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there degrees of abomination?
7.) Leviticus 21:10 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?
8.) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Leviticus 19:27. How should they die?
9.) I know from Leviticus 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
10.) My uncle has a farm. He violates Leviticus 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them?-Leviticus 24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, as we do with people who sleep with their in-laws-Leviticus 20:14,?
I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

---
$0.02,

Dauric.

(in reply to darkinshadows)
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