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RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 11/27/2006 7:39:51 PM

KenDckey

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Joined: 5/31/2006
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Repeating weapons have been around a long time. Repeating crossbow circa 220 AD, Colt Root Model 1855 (5-6 rounds before reloading depending on calibur), The Confederate Army had a 65 round per minute machine gun, 1718 Worlds first maching gun (british),

(in reply to KenDckey)

Post #: 121

RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 11/28/2006 6:02:40 AM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang

"...volunteered to protect me..."

Is that right? Wow, such selfless individuals we are raising nowadays. You sure they weren't conned into service by bleak alternative prospects at home or the lure of college funds?

If those same soldiers are as ethical as you claim it would be my assertion that they would refuse to fight in Iraq whatever the legal cost to themselves. If they would lay down their lives for us, what's a few years in the stockade standing up for what is right?

Stop spewing shit.

You know   you are really wrong.   With this post you have lumped all military into a little box of your making.   Yes it is true that SOME of our service members may have joined for schooling etc.   But, there are those of us that joined for patriotic reasons.   My self amongst them.   Yes I am retired.   I spent 20 years (starting at age 17) serving our country.   No   I didn't get a college education because I spent my time in the military I couldn't take advantage of the GI Bill because it expired before I retired.   I had other job opportunities that I could have pursued without being in the military, but I chose to serve my country and without being drafted.

As to the legality of the war.   All I know is that it has been tested in the courts, that the congress voted for it without declaring war and with few nay votes, and that soldiers are following lawful orders.   Those that don't should be appropriately disciplined (a subject for the courts to decide). Personal belief has nothing to do with the military. The military is there to carry out public policy, wither or not the individual service members agree or disagree with the policy.   If every soldier had to decide if he agreed or disagreed with every order given before carrying out that order, then we would have a lot of dead soldiers.

Might I suggest that you not lump all service members into what point you are trying to make. It makes you seem small and reduces your credibility.

KenDckey:
You are a rare and precious individual. In my whole life I have never met a 17 year old who was aware enough to understand the concept of patriotism.
Except for Kentucky I do not believe that there is any state that allows minors to enter into contracts. The reasoning being is that they are not aware enough to do so.
I would be interested in hearing you explain just what is patriotic in having people put on uniforms and take guns to kill others so that a small corps of wealthy people can become richer.
You seem to go on rather more about soldiers protecting us in our sleep. I did not spend 20 years feeding at the public trough so I may not have the same insights as you. Perhaps you might enlighten me as to when in the history of the US that we have ever been attacked by a foreign nation. Every war we have been involved in we either started or intruded ourselves into.
As to the legality of this current war...get a grip man are you living under a rock? They are talking about impeaching the man for lying to congress...anyone who does not see that he lied long deep and again is just not paying attention.
I am sure you know what a CO is ...there are numerous cases of people joining the military and later becoming a CO and leaving the service with an honorable discharge. There are tens of thousands of deserters who were pardoned in recognition of thier claimed CO status. All human beings have a primary obligation to themselves to do what they feel is right. Even in Nazi Germany there were soldiers who refused to work in the death camps...were they court martialed ? were they shot? no not one. They were simply transfered.
I think the women in "Lysastrata" had it right...no more pussy till you boys learn to play nice.

thompson

(in reply to KenDckey)

Post #: 122

RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 11/28/2006 7:12:20 AM

LordODiscipline

Posts: 995
Joined: 6/28/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Any one who reads history knows that all wars are fought for economic gain any one who says other wise is simply dealing in rhetoric.

thompson

And, you are also dealing in rhetoric... it is all subjective relative to the incredible amount of reasons available at any dealing and any war.. so, such a statement is really rather narrow.

~J

_____________________________

"Anyone who thinks they're important is usually just a pompous moron who can't deal with his or her own pathetic insignificance and the fact that what they do is meaningless and inconsequential."
William Thomas

(in reply to thompsonx)

Post #: 123

RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 11/28/2006 7:25:33 AM

LordODiscipline

Posts: 995
Joined: 6/28/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

As to the legality of this current war...get a grip man are you living under a rock? They are talking about impeaching the man for lying to congress...

Who is "they"?(...and, I hope it is more than your friends at the bar). People talk about a lot of things... just because they do does not mean there is real cause, that there will be an action in this regard or that it will happen.

Talk to us when it is brought to the senate sub-comittee - other than that, it as less validity than an educated determination on who will win the World Series next year.

quote:

..anyone who does not see that he lied long deep and again is just not paying attention.

And you know he was lieing (did not believe what he was saying) because you have the proof of _________? (fill in the blank)

quote:

I am sure you know what a CO is ...there are numerous cases of people joining the military and later becoming a CO and leaving the service with an honorable discharge.

Name one who received an honorable discharge (there might be one - I have no idea - but, these "everyone knows" , "plenty of...", "al lot of" statements are really rather thin.)

Someone serves for 8 years and then a war comes along - and, they refuse to go? They are placed in jail for a perriod of time after being found guilty - and, after their time is served, they are discharged with a "Less than honorable"

There are tens of thousands of deserters who were pardoned in recognition of thier claimed CO status.

And, given honorable discharges? How many years did it take for the pardon?

quote:

All human beings have a primary obligation to themselves to do what they feel is right.

You are right - family, friends, people, nation mean nothing.<---sarcasm
Pretty selfish statement there, Thomson.

quote:

Even in Nazi Germany there were soldiers who refused to work in the death camps...were they court martialed ? were they shot? no not one. They were simply transfered.

Really??

These camps were manned by the SS... they were not given a choice - they had to report to the duty station assigned. Some were in the administrative end of things if they could not perform duties and others were transfered to Russian front line duty... not a great choice (kill people - or - get killed)

They did not allow CO's after the fact. You joined, you were placed where you were needed. Refuse to perform - you were shot.

~J

_____________________________

"Anyone who thinks they're important is usually just a pompous moron who can't deal with his or her own pathetic insignificance and the fact that what they do is meaningless and inconsequential."
William Thomas

(in reply to thompsonx)

Post #: 124

RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 11/28/2006 7:28:33 AM

LordODiscipline

Posts: 995
Joined: 6/28/2004
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The same "right" that any government would have that feels threatened.

Somehow people think that there has to be something written in order to have it be real or righteous. Governemtns are like an animal... a threat is levied and appears real - and, that government is going to lash out to protect itself.

All there has to be is a determination of a "real danger"... and, a government shall always act in their best interest.

~J

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

"How comfortable would US citizens be with a few dozen divisions of Chinese troops in Central and South America?"

...if they were there at the invitation of those countries what right would the US have to interfere?

_____________________________

"Anyone who thinks they're important is usually just a pompous moron who can't deal with his or her own pathetic insignificance and the fact that what they do is meaningless and inconsequential."
William Thomas

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 125

RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 11/28/2006 7:31:20 AM

LordODiscipline

Posts: 995
Joined: 6/28/2004
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I like the idea...

Sunshine Soldiers... what would a person do for their country if called on... and, this has nothing to do with politics.

~J

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

On another thread some time ago someone made a chance remark admiring the political system espoused in Heinlein's 'Starship Troopers'.....in that book basically you got to be a voting citizen only if you were prepared to put in time in the military. Quite frankly, i'm not sure that there aren't significent parts of western society who see such a state as a good thing.
It worries me to an extent, but i am curious as to how others would react to such an idea.

_____________________________

"Anyone who thinks they're important is usually just a pompous moron who can't deal with his or her own pathetic insignificance and the fact that what they do is meaningless and inconsequential."
William Thomas

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 126

RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 11/28/2006 7:36:47 AM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Perhaps you might enlighten me as to when in the history of the US that we have ever been attacked by a foreign nation. Every war we have been involved in we either started or intruded ourselves into.

thompson

First World War
Second World War

Arguably the Mexican-American War.

And it is a good idea to remember that at the time reasonable people believed Spain had attacked the Maine or at the least had allowed the destruction of the ship when the Spanish-American War started in 1898.

(in reply to thompsonx)

Post #: 127

RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 11/28/2006 7:42:53 AM

LordODiscipline

Posts: 995
Joined: 6/28/2004
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The War of 1812 is a good example - where American seamen and merchant ships were being impressed into British service.

The war with the Barbary pirates - where tribute had to be paid by all nations as an extortionary means and a US Ship was boarded and stolen because the tribute was not paid in a timely manner.

There are others as well.

~J

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Perhaps you might enlighten me as to when in the history of the US that we have ever been attacked by a foreign nation. Every war we have been involved in we either started or intruded ourselves into.

thompson

First World War
Second World War

Arguably the Mexican-American War.

And it is a good idea to remember that at the time reasonable people believed Spain had attacked the Maine or at the least had allowed the destruction of the ship when the Spanish-American War started in 1898.

_____________________________

"Anyone who thinks they're important is usually just a pompous moron who can't deal with his or her own pathetic insignificance and the fact that what they do is meaningless and inconsequential."
William Thomas

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 128

RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 11/28/2006 7:59:45 AM

meatcleaver

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Joined: 3/13/2006
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I thought the American Mexican war was started by the US annexation of Texas and was the first US war driven by the ideology of 'Manifest Destiny'.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to LordODiscipline)

Post #: 129

RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 11/28/2006 8:28:44 AM

LordODiscipline

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Joined: 6/28/2004
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I did not bring that one into this -

However, it was stated as "arguably" -

Possibly meaning that the invasion of Texas and killing/exiling of American citizens was used as the reason for the assistance lent to the (then) Republic of Texas.

The annexations came after the victory... and, the entire idea of reparations was in the air (as far as the US government was concerned - they had ordered the negotiations to end the war ceased previous to the signing of the treaty... so, it was kinda an interesting situation of "who negotiated what" and "Why were we involved in this to begin with" and "Wow - we got all that" when all was said and done.

~J
~J

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I thought the American Mexican war was started by the US annexation of Texas and was the first US war driven by the ideology of 'Manifest Destiny'.

_____________________________

"Anyone who thinks they're important is usually just a pompous moron who can't deal with his or her own pathetic insignificance and the fact that what they do is meaningless and inconsequential."
William Thomas

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 130

RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 11/28/2006 10:25:24 AM

LordODiscipline

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Joined: 6/28/2004
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By the way:
FYI (I re-read what you wrote)

Texas declared itself an independent repulblic after the Mexcan government demanded that no more Americajns come to the territory and were considering exiling the ones that were there.

Originally, Mexico invited mass immigration as it was a means of generating more taxes by increasing population (it was a place they were having a hard time getting their own people to go to) and also industry.

Over time, the Texans (anglo, hispanic, and indian) were gaining a great deal of influence simply through their numbers and the money generated - but, did not have a voice in the Mexican government (they were an outlying territory - and, were considered to be 'beyond the country' simply by virtue of their distance from Mexico City) - but, they were (indeed) citizens of Mexico... (once again - 'Taxation without Representation' strikes discord on the continent)

When the Government of Mexico closed immigration and started deporting/arresting people who were in violation of that order, the locals took to arms and eventually declared independence forming the government of The Republic of Texas...

After the Mexican American war the Republic was invited to be a part of the American country.. they accepted.

Texas is the only state (by virtue of treaty and consitution) that may (through vote) leave the US and/or may devide into 5 states.

They were not allowed to do so during the civil war, as they were in league/aligned themselves with other confederate states and therefore were in violation of the constitution just as the others were.

~J

_____________________________

"Anyone who thinks they're important is usually just a pompous moron who can't deal with his or her own pathetic insignificance and the fact that what they do is meaningless and inconsequential."
William Thomas

(in reply to LordODiscipline)

Post #: 131

RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 11/28/2006 11:16:37 AM

meatcleaver

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Joined: 3/13/2006
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Sounds like a US version of history to me. What you are saying, Texas was originally Mexican and then it wasn't and then it was American. Hmm. Now that sounds like many a story from the French, Spanish, Dutch, British or whatever empire. If Texas declared independence and then asked to be part of the USA for protection, it obviously didn't want independence in the first place and the US was very obliging at taking on such a burden, sounds very much like a convenient stitch up. Which is how Mexicians see it as far as I can tell.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to LordODiscipline)

Post #: 132

RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 11/28/2006 11:31:03 AM

LordODiscipline

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Stop coloring it.

Texas was Mexican
Elements of the populace started creating a move for independence because - the populace was not recognized as a part of Mexico by theat government and therefore there was no means of mitigating drastic tax increases by the government in Mexico City
Mexico declared that imigration was closed and all people who were not "Mexican" (citizens previous to this) had to register or leave
Mexico moved an army under the leadership of their political head (Santa Anna) from Mexico City to police the area of Texas and (Now) New Mexico to enforce the tax laws and immigration policies
Conflict erupted and lives were lost
Texas declares independence and asks for recognition from the world's goivernments
Texas starts to raise an Army
'The Alamo' occurs
On news of the death of several popular characters from America, the Republic of Texas was recognized by the US and Mexico was asked to reduce its army int he territory to hold the peace
Mexico levied a protest and sent reinforcements to Texas
The US was asked by the Republic to come to their aid
After hemming about it in congress (as they do), the Mexican American War commenced and an army is started to be raised.

It is the same in both countries - as those are the facts.

Texas DID want independence from both countries - They did not ASK or seek to be a part of the US; however, after the war they recognized that Mexico would always be a beligerent neighbor after they had their rears kicked and would not let them go easily - so, given the options available and the fact that about 1/2 were former Americans, they fell in with the US.

You can go to the Museum of National History in Mexico City and see it the same way - in fact several of the battles are commemorated in Mexico city... a few were epic in scope and in the telling.

And, for someone who was clueless about what happened at the beginning of this conversation, it seems you have significant opinions as to how the people of Mexico see that war.

~J

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Sounds like a US version of history to me. What you are saying, Texas was originally Mexican and then it wasn't and then it was American. Hmm. Now that sounds like many a story from the French, Spanish, Dutch, British or whatever empire. If Texas declared independence and then asked to be part of the USA for protection, it obviously didn't want independence in the first place and the US was very obliging at taking on such a burden, sounds very much like a convenient stitch up. Which is how Mexicians see it as far as I can tell.

< Message edited by LordODiscipline -- 11/28/2006 11:34:30 AM >

_____________________________

"Anyone who thinks they're important is usually just a pompous moron who can't deal with his or her own pathetic insignificance and the fact that what they do is meaningless and inconsequential."
William Thomas

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 133

RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 11/28/2006 11:55:00 AM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

Actually LoD has some things about the Mexican-American war wrong.

First Texas won a disputed independence from Mexico in 1836 (Remember the Alamo, Sam Houston and all that). Mexico's governement decided after the fact not to recognize the peace treaty that granted Texas independence. However both the US and the UK recognized the new nation and established diplomatic relations with the Republic of Texas.

Texans for a number of reasons requested annexation into the US and in 1845, after 9 years of independence, they got their wish. Mexico behaved in much the way China does today over Taiwan, ie It's a breakaway province that will one day be brought back under government control etc. Both Britain and France recognized the annexation as legal and attempted to dissuade the Mexicans from military action.

In 1845 the US sent a representative to Mexico City to attempt to negotiate a peaceful settlement and to purchase the California and New Mexico territories for somewhere between $25 and 35 million. He was unsuccessful and left after about a year of negotiation.

At the same time General Zachary Taylor and his troops moved into the area between the Nueces river and the Rio Grande. Mexico considered the Nueces the Texas border not the Rio Grande even though the Rio Grande had been the border of the province when under Mexican control and was the border in the treaty that granted Texas independence. Mexico had threatened to invade if the US annexed Texas so moving troops to the frontier was a reasonable thing to do. Several violent encounters occured in late April and early May 1846. All were north of the Rio Grande and initiated by Mexican forces.

After receiving word of these incidents President Polk requested a declaration of war from Congress and received it on May 13, 1846.

So while the legal niceties can be argued it is true that Mexican forces crossed what was the internationally recognized US border and attacked federal troops prior to any US attacks.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 134

RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 11/28/2006 12:45:04 PM

LordODiscipline

Posts: 995
Joined: 6/28/2004
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You are absolutely right.

That will teach me to talk out my rear.

~J

_____________________________

"Anyone who thinks they're important is usually just a pompous moron who can't deal with his or her own pathetic insignificance and the fact that what they do is meaningless and inconsequential."
William Thomas

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 135

RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 11/28/2006 1:06:48 PM

UtopianRanger

Posts: 3251
Status: offline

quote:

UtopianRanger:
I am not disagreeing with your post but just wanted to clear up a little history.
The French at Dien Bien Phu were primarily Foriegn Legion (your previous gang affiliaton flew close air support for them in unmarked aircraft) Were surrounded not by a few angry peasants but rather five divisions of NVA regulars outnumbering them by at least 4:1. They were backed up with a whole division of artillary and anti aircraft batteries which outnumbered the french artillary by 5:1.
As a side line it was at Dien Bien Phu that the first U.S. combat death in Viet Nam occured with the shooting down of ace fighter pilot "earthquake McGoon" (James McGovern) who was flying an R4Q (boxcar).

thompson

Hello Thompson.....

Thanks for the extended history lesson. Although outnumbered, The French contingent was still technologically superior during the time period.

The main point I am trying to emphasize here... is that it's virtually impossible to win a guerrilla war against a people whose hearts and minds are opposed to their occupiers.

I get super tired of reading all about how the military is going to protect us - We'll protect ourselves.

- R

< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 11/28/2006 1:07:44 PM >

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton

(in reply to thompsonx)

Post #: 136

RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 12/18/2006 9:09:37 AM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Perhaps you might enlighten me as to when in the history of the US that we have ever been attacked by a foreign nation. Every war we have been involved in we either started or intruded ourselves into.

thompson

First World War
Second World War

Arguably the Mexican-American War.

And it is a good idea to remember that at the time reasonable people believed Spain had attacked the Maine or at the least had allowed the destruction of the ship when the Spanish-American War started in 1898.

DomKen:
Perhaps you might be interested in the memoirs of folks like Grant and Lee when it comes to the Mexican Amarican war...They are pretty clear as to the reasons for the conflilct.
The U.S. sent an ambasasdor to Mexico to try to buy California. When the mexicans told him that no part of Mexico was for sale we took it by force of arms.

The Spanish American war was instigated by William Randolph Hurst. The Main was sunk by an explosion that was generated from inside the ship thus ruleing out any posibility of the Spanish being responsible...This data was available almost immediately after the incident.

The U.S. entered WWI ostensibly because of the sinking of the Lusitania. At the time only the administration knew the Lusitania was carrying war materials...now the world knows what was in the holds of the Lusitania.

The U.S. entered WWII after provoking Japan into an attack on Pearl Harbor which the administration knew about in great detail almost from its inception.
thompson

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 137

RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 12/19/2006 10:57:29 AM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LordODiscipline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Any one who reads history knows that all wars are fought for economic gain any one who says other wise is simply dealing in rhetoric.

thompson

And, you are also dealing in rhetoric... it is all subjective relative to the incredible amount of reasons available at any dealing and any war.. so, such a statement is really rather narrow.

~J

LordODiscipline:
ROFLMAO
thompson

(in reply to LordODiscipline)

Post #: 138

RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 12/19/2006 11:02:22 AM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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We went through this a while ago and the challenge was presented: name a war not fought for economic gain? The few answers that were forthcoming were quickly given the runaround.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to thompsonx)

Post #: 139

RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 12/19/2006 11:12:26 AM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LordODiscipline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

As to the legality of this current war...get a grip man are you living under a rock? They are talking about impeaching the man for lying to congress...

Who is "they"?
Some people read a newspaper some listen to the radio or the tv...perhaps you might also.

(...and, I hope it is more than your friends at the bar). People talk about a lot of things... just because they do does not mean there is real cause, that there will be an action in this regard or that it will happen.

Talk to us when it is brought to the senate sub-comittee - other than that, it as less validity than an educated determination on who will win the World Series next year.

quote:

..anyone who does not see that he lied long deep and again is just not paying attention.

And you know he was lieing (did not believe what he was saying) because you have the proof of _________? (fill in the blank)
Still no weapons of mass destruction.
Dick Cheny on meet the press...."this war is and always was about regime change"

quote:

I am sure you know what a CO is ...there are numerous cases of people joining the military and later becoming a CO and leaving the service with an honorable discharge.

Name one who received an honorable discharge (there might be one - I have no idea
You are absolutely right ...you have no idea

- but, these "everyone knows" , "plenty of...", "al lot of" statements are really rather thin.)

Someone serves for 8 years and then a war comes along - and, they refuse to go? They are placed in jail for a perriod of time after being found guilty - and, after their time is served, they are discharged with a "Less than honorable"

There are tens of thousands of deserters who were pardoned in recognition of thier claimed CO status.

And, given honorable discharges? How many years did it take for the pardon?
Your point would be?????

quote:

All human beings have a primary obligation to themselves to do what they feel is right.

You are right - family, friends, people, nation mean nothing.<---sarcasm
Pretty selfish statement there, Thomson.
Any man more right than his contemporaries constitutes a majority of one.

quote:

Even in Nazi Germany there were soldiers who refused to work in the death camps...were they court martialed ? were they shot? no not one. They were simply transfered.

Really??

These camps were manned by the SS... they were not given a choice - they had to report to the duty station assigned. Some were in the administrative end of things if they could not perform duties and others were transfered to Russian front line duty... not a great choice (kill people - or - get killed)
Those who find honor in the profession of arms prefer combat to murder.

They did not allow CO's after the fact. You joined, you were placed where you were needed. Refuse to perform - you were shot.
Not so....and since the germans are anal about record keeping, should you choose to do a bit of research, it will not be difficult to find.
thompson

~J

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 12/19/2006 11:37:26 AM >

(in reply to LordODiscipline)

Post #: 140

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