RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of society?

Collarspace Discussion Forums

Home Login Search

RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of society?

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of society?

Page: << < prev 3 4 [5] 6 7 next > >>

Login

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 11/27/2006 12:08:12 AM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

I'm a vet, 6 years in the USN. I loved my years of service and hated them as well.

The pay stunk and still does:
http://www.dod.mil/dfas/militarypay/newinformation/WebPayTableVersion2006updated.pdf

The US government (Raygun Ronnie the coward in my case) lied to us and abused us. I was promised health care for life but 6 months into my enlistment that got retroactively changed to only service related conditions. At one point the enlisted men on my ship were required to participate in a test of an "alertness" pill (Speed essentially).

However I made great friends that I wouldn't have otherwise have met and saw the world. I learned discipline of a sort I wasn't likely to learn elsewhere. I learned what it is in someone that makes me sure I can rely on them no matter what.

And ultimately I learned that the people who knock people who have served simply because they served are the sort who are likely to cross the street if they see someone in trouble because they "don't want to get involved."

No, I don't support GWB or the War on Iraq but I will do whatever I can to support the men and women who volunteered to protect me and are now in harms way over there.

(in reply to UtopianRanger)

Post #: 81

RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 11/27/2006 12:29:49 AM

UtopianRanger

Posts: 3251
Status: offline

quote:

I'm a vet, 6 years in the USN. I loved my years of service and hated them as well.

quote:

And ultimately I learned that the people who knock people who have served simply because they served are the sort who are likely to cross the street if they see someone in trouble because they "don't want to get involved."

Typify me as you want - Been there done that.

quote:

I can to support the men and women who volunteered to protect me and are now in harms way over there.

This is an utter fallacy. Protect yourself. First of all.....this country will never be attacked by an invading army. And even if it was, I would rely on the local masses {ala posse comitatis} to rise up and defeat the enemy, not the military.

- R

< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 11/27/2006 12:32:37 AM >

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 82

RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 11/27/2006 12:51:03 AM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

.......on several threads many people who have served in the military often use that experience to illuminate their thoughts. After all it is a unique type of experience. However, it does seem sometimes as if the very fact of having served is claimed as making them better citizens, more important. At the time they were paid to do the work. So what continuing claim do they have on society? Why is this different to, say, a nurse with many years experience? Or a teacher?
Surely being in the military is merely one of many types of unique, socially valuable experience, shouldn't all people whose work contributes to society should be valued equally?

philosophy, I know three people very well who served in the armed forces and a lot of people not so well.

One swallow doesn't make a summer but here's my opinion on the three people I know well:

Father - served in the Royal Air Force. He did his national service and decided to stay on. He served in the RAF a total of 32 years approx. He was involved in wars - Aden I think and the Suez thing. He served all over Europe, Hong Kong, Singapore, Middle East etc. Was he a better citizen? Absolutely not. No worse and no better than a teacher, nurse etc.

Uncle - a bomb disposal expert in the army. He served in the Falklands and Northern Ireland. An extremely disciplined man and I'm sure the army is the reason. Again, he's not a better citizen. He does his job and pays his taxes like the rest of us.

Just to add, neither of the above consider themselves better citizens and both loved their jobs and wouldn't have had it any other way.

A good friend - joined the army because he couldn't find another job. If you could see him on Friday and Saturday nights you'll be struggling to class him as a better citizen.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 83

RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 11/27/2006 6:02:37 AM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

Just some random thoughts:
The unwilling being led by the unknowing to do the unnecessary=the military.
The U.S. military does not protect us from invasion...as General Smedley Butler points out quite clearly it is the muscle behind american foriegn policy.
A lifer is not someone who spends their life in the military but someone who uses their power in the military to make life miserable for those under their command.
The only thing I learned how to do in the military was to clean the shithouse and to kill people both of which I was proficient at...I spent 99.9% of my time doing the former.
I have never known a cop who was not a liar,thief and a cheat.
I have never known a fireman who did not lie,cheat or steal to get the job.
According to the insurance companies garbage truck operators have the most dangerous job in america.
Hienlien's point in "Starship Troopers" was that soldiers know the ugliness of war and as such would be less likely to vote to engage in adventurism.
Every great and powerful family started with a horse thief and a whore.

thompson

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 84

RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 11/27/2006 6:29:01 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

I'm surprised at the low pay of American soldiers (if I'm reading the stats right), I thought British soldiers had low pay and do compared to their European counterparts. But Thompson is right, the American military is way beyond what it needs to be to provide and adequate defence and is about putting weight behind American foreign policy. With land borders with aggressive nations such as Mexico and Canada who might at any moment sweep through the US like Mongol hordes, the US certainly needs a jeep or two. A nation only really needs to keep a core of highly professional military which it can bolster with conscripts in time of national emergency. Personally I think the US military gives the US an aggressive posture and a bad image and does nothing that US economic muscle couldn't do without it and let's face it, without so much expenditure on the military, the US would have more economic muscle than it has now.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to thompsonx)

Post #: 85

RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 11/27/2006 7:07:10 AM

topcat

Posts: 1675
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Tidewater, VA
Status: offline

Like any group that I am a member of, there are a lot of vets that I wouldn't want to be associated with, guys that make me cring when they play our common card- I could say exactly the same of people in the scene.

I don't feel my service entitles me to any special regard, though it does make me angry to see benefits that I was promised downgraded out of existance.

It did change me some some deep , subtle ways. I work with a small group (8 people total), all about the same age, from more or less the same backrounds, with 3 vets- myself and another Marine, and a Sailor, all, enlisted, all of whom served at about the same time (early eighties). I find, compared to the rest of the group, that the three of us coordinate better on projects together, partially becuase we are more task focused, and to some extent because we have a better grasp of our strengths and weakness when it comes to implementing our jobs, so there is no jockeying for position as leader or quibbling about labor division, which is a marked differance when dealing with the other employees.

A Client (who was coincdently a former marine), made a funny oberservation while the whole company was involved on a big rush project on his boat. He accuratly parsed us as civilians and vets , based on watching us walk in the rain when we broke for a meal- the vets walked across the lot as though it was raining- the others ran, hunched over, for shelter. Since then, I have noticed it in other situations.

_____________________________

-there is no remission without blood-

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 86

RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 11/27/2006 9:07:39 AM

UtopianRanger

Posts: 3251
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I'm surprised at the low pay of American soldiers (if I'm reading the stats right), I thought British soldiers had low pay and do compared to their European counterparts. But Thompson is right, the American military is way beyond what it needs to be to provide and adequate defence and is about putting weight behind American foreign policy. With land borders with aggressive nations such as Mexico and Canada who might at any moment sweep through the US like Mongol hordes, the US certainly needs a jeep or two. A nation only really needs to keep a core of highly professional military which it can bolster with conscripts in time of national emergency. Personally I think the US military gives the US an aggressive posture and a bad image and does nothing that US economic muscle couldn't do without it and let's face it, without so much expenditure on the military, the US would have more economic muscle than it has now.

The thing that vets should really be up in arms about is the privatization of the military at tax payer expense - As of yet, I've not heard one vet complain about this.

I know a thirty-five year-old guy here in town that just returned from Iraq as a KBR employee. He is/was a cook assigned to a dining facility in the ''Green zone'' - He told me he was making 8500.00 a month tax free to flip omelets in the morning and cook chicken slop for lunch.

It's my bet that KBR / Haliburton turns that 8500.00 a month into a 200k a month bill to the US government, which in turn is passed on to the tax payers. A Private or a PFC should be doing that job at about 1100.00 a month plus combat / hazardous duty pay. Then instead of all that cash going to KBR/Haliburton, the savings could go back into the veteran’s funds for sorely needed benefits.

This is a tragedy, not only for the vets but all the people in this country.

- R

< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 11/27/2006 9:11:34 AM >

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 87

RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 11/27/2006 10:05:59 AM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

We can't do it that way, because if that omelette-flipper gets taken out by a bomb or something, we lose a soldier in the war. This way, KBR just loses some paid employee and we in the government don't have to report the stats. Yeah, it costs a little more, but it saves our asses at the polls.

Haven't you been following Rumsfeld's genius?

quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

It's my bet that KBR / Haliburton turns that 8500.00 a month into a 200k a month bill to the US government, which in turn is passed on to the tax payers. A Private or a PFC should be doing that job at about 1100.00 a month plus combat / hazardous duty pay. Then instead of all that cash going to KBR/Haliburton, the savings could go back into the veteran’s funds for sorely needed benefits.

(in reply to UtopianRanger)

Post #: 88

RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 11/27/2006 10:28:58 AM

Archer

Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline

There is a Huge difference that may not have been mentioned.
Military service is the only lace I know where a person can be told to do something that hey know WILL result in their death and they have only Jailtime as an option.
A fireman can quit the job, a policeman can quit the job, all other professions can quit the job, the military cannot just quit the job.

That makees a bit of a difference at least to me.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 89

RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 11/27/2006 10:37:48 AM

philosophy

Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer
There is a Huge difference that may not have been mentioned.
Military service is the only lace I know where a person can be told to do something that hey know WILL result in their death and they have only Jailtime as an option.
A fireman can quit the job, a policeman can quit the job, all other professions can quit the job, the military cannot just quit the job.
That makees a bit of a difference at least to me.

.......perhaps, but is it the sort of difference that means we ought to respect them more than, say, a nurse, a doctor or a teacher? Picking differences between various jobs is fairly easy......assigning relative values seems to me to be much harder.

(in reply to Archer)

Post #: 90

RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 11/27/2006 10:41:22 AM

Archer

Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline

Have to make an assumption here, complete with all it's hazards.
If we are assuming that the choice is made from a considered point of view, knowing what they are getting into then yes more respect for those who still choose a service based job that can result in death that they cannot 6 months or a year later change their minds.
It is the level of commitment that applies for me in that idea.

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 91

RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 11/27/2006 10:45:14 AM

LadyEllen

Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline

Those in the services may not always be respectable - in fact, their duties might be hampered if they were..

But anyone who willingly goes into a career where they stand a higher chance than average of death or serious injury, for the benefit of the rest of us, always deserves respect.

And just because certain people in authority abuse the armed forces and send them off to wars for ulterior motives (other than our defence), doesnt mean that respect is any less due.

What a disgrace it is, that these abusers show no such respect.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to Archer)

Post #: 92

RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 11/27/2006 10:56:08 AM

philosophy

Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer
Have to make an assumption here, complete with all it's hazards.
If we are assuming that the choice is made from a considered point of view, knowing what they are getting into then yes more respect for those who still choose a service based job that can result in death that they cannot 6 months or a year later change their minds.
It is the level of commitment that applies for me in that idea.

....i see what you mean Archer...but your commitment test applies equally to nuns and monks. Unquestioning obedience seems to me to not be that great a virtue in and of itself. Following orders was not a defence against war crimes at Nuremburg, nor should it have been. Consider the level of violence offered to ER nurses and doctors.......the risk of disease and injury.......the commitment and dedication necessary to do that job right, let alone the training one would need to dedicate oneself to. How could anyone rate a soldier as higher, more socially useful, more deserving of respect than that? i could accept equally as deserving, but not more so........

(in reply to Archer)

Post #: 93

RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 11/27/2006 11:14:10 AM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

This is an utter fallacy. Protect yourself. First of all.....this country will never be attacked by an invading army. And even if it was, I would rely on the local masses {ala posse comitatis} to rise up and defeat the enemy, not the military.

- R

You sir, are a blithering idiot. If an invasion ever comes locals with hunting arms and handguns are not going to defeat tanks and jet bombers. A tiny fraction of the populace, likely mostly vets, would begin a resistance movement but without a lot of outside help it would only be a nuisance to an occupation force and if the invaders didn't care about bad PR it would quickly dwindle down to nothing as folks would be unwilling to take action when the reaction would be the execution of an entire community.

Also the whole small professional cadre that would then be supplemented by conscripts in case of national emergency idea is indicative that those advocating it have no idea about the realities of the modern armed forces. A serviceman is not ready to face the enemy after the 2 to 3 months of boot camp. It generally takes an additional 6 months to a year to get a new recruit to be able to do his job even marginally competently. Now that is not to say that the US needs a military of the size it has today but a tiny cadre isn't viable either.

As to KBR and the whole privatization of the military, that is disgusting and from what I've heard likely illegal. Hopefully the new congress will take a hard look at contracts that result in it costing taxpayers more than $100 per meal served while according to various reports providing even lower quality and quantity of food than was true back when I served.

(in reply to UtopianRanger)

Post #: 94

RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 11/27/2006 11:14:54 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

Well I certainly put soldiers higher up the scale of respect than social workers of one kind or another and many civil servants and many other itinerantd who earn more money, work less, have more perks, show less commitment and have better pension and working conditions than the people who work in the private sector and have to pay for them with their tax money.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 95

RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 11/27/2006 11:16:06 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

You sir, are a blithering idiot. If an invasion ever comes locals with hunting arms and handguns are not going to defeat tanks and jet bombers.

Like who is going to invade the US, Canada?

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 96

RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 11/27/2006 11:18:23 AM

Archer

Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline

Wait I think you have carried my idea past what I ment, I certainly am not a proponent of unquestioning obedience, I am in admiration of those that can commit to something f that level with a considered honest commitment, I guess that would fall onto the nunand monks as well. But the idea of unquestioning obedience is another thing all together.

The US military kinda has an odd stance they foster unquestioning obedience, but expect it to happen only after the single question has been answered.
Is this a legal order? They train on what the definition is, and then expect anything inside the legal definition to be done instantly. War Crimes fall outside that and are not legal orders and you generally do not end up in jail for failure to obey an illegal order, but you might have to defend the position in court.

Blow up that church!
What it's a church that's not a legal target.
They are using it as a sniper possition, and arms dump.
Oh OK that makes a difference, Yes Sir

They actually have training exrcises for officers at least where they give you illegal orders and you role play through how you would respond. I recall specific exercise where I was in training , ordered to execute a POW. We ended up in a physical conflict, they during after action review shared the best soultion they had ever seen.

Shoot this prisoner!
Are you sure Sir the GC says it's a crime?
I SAID SHOOT THE PRISONER
OK Sir I will
(walk the prisoner off into the woods, allowing The POW to see what you are doing shoot your weapon into the dirt BANG)
Return to the group saying it's done
Send the POW up channels and report the incident to your Cmdr.

So this is why I'm always kinda up in arms when I hear about people following illeal orders. They get the training WTF can be their excuse?

< Message edited by Archer -- 11/27/2006 11:21:52 AM >

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 97

RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 11/27/2006 11:20:48 AM

philosophy

Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer
.......So this is why I'm always kinda up in arms when I hear about people following illegal orders. They get the training WTF can be their excuse?

.....i couldn't agree more.

(in reply to Archer)

Post #: 98

RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 11/27/2006 11:20:52 AM

beautyImurDaddy

Posts: 58
Joined: 8/29/2006
Status: offline

i am the collared submissive of a Sailor in the US Navy and am living on a Navy Base.... i am also retired law enforcement. Does that make us better than anyone else? no! Am i damn proud of ImurDaddy and the others on this base... YES! ImurDaddy just reenlisted and will be sent to Japan for 4 years... do nurses, doctors, law enforcement, etc get sent away from their families for weeks, months, years at a time? Do nurses or doctors put their own lives in jeopardy to save others? no. Does any other profession defend the rights of THIS country? Having been in law enforcement myself, i can understand and appreciate the unique "brotherhood" within certain sectors of the population. Police, Fire, Ems, Soldiers, even doctors and nurses, because of the "uniqueness" of their occupations, tend to socialize with those who can relate. Also having spent months in combat living with someone, forges unique alliances. While it is true that doctors and nurses work long hours and perform sometime amazing and courages feats in their own rights, i feel it is comparing apples to oranges. There are many professions out there that get little or no "hype" or appreciation. Teachers, that train the doctors and nurses what they need to know... Mothers, for raising productive citizens... everything from garbage collectors to mechanics and truck drivers... there are many professions without which society would stand still.

When ImurDaddy served in Desert Storm, they worked very long hour days, 16 to 20 hours at times, sleeping sitting up or with bombings going on nearby. Has a doctor, nurse, teacher or even law enforcement been subjected to months of conditions like that? No!.... Has a doctor, nurse or teacher been ordered to go against human nature and kill someone? no. Does this quantify someone as a better Dom/me because they have served in the military? no.

So in response to the original "title" of this thread unique service or just another, yes... it is unique... but unique is not indicative of "better".

And remember all... no matter what one may think of this "war" we are currently involved in... there are sons, daughters, mothers, fathers, husbands and wives away from those who matter most to them tonight who deserve your support. By showing your support for our soldiers you are not condoning the war.. only showing them you appreciate what they are doing.. And i can forsee a comment from philosphy on that... so i will beat him to it.... while they did volunteer to serve our country knowing full well they could be sent off... that does not diminish the fact that they ARE!

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 99

RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 11/27/2006 11:42:36 AM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

You sir, are a blithering idiot. If an invasion ever comes locals with hunting arms and handguns are not going to defeat tanks and jet bombers.

Like who is going to invade the US, Canada?

How little people know of history. What was the final straw that got the US into WWI? Ever heard of the Zimmermann Telegram?

While an invasion by our neighbors isn't in the immediate future that isn't the only possible invasion we could face. China has long term goals of expanding its influence with oil producing states including Venezuala and Mexico. How comfortable would US citizens be with a few dozen divisions of Chinese troops in Central and South America? Think it might be nice to keep a modern military around rather than trying to rebuild one when the geopolitical situation shifts to something unforseen?

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 100

Page: << < prev 3 4 [5] 6 7 next > >>

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of society?

Page: << < prev 3 4 [5] 6 7 next > >>

Jump to:

New Messages	No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages	Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages	Locked w/o New Messages

Post New Thread

Reply to Message

Post New Poll

Submit Vote

Delete My Own Post

Delete My Own Thread

Rate Posts

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.094