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RE: Topping from the bottom? - 8/24/2006 10:02:25 PM   
Reflectivesoul


Posts: 1777
Joined: 4/25/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

Just in general, I wanted to add a point that I think is valid.  There are times when a submissive isnt intentionally trying to control at all.  There are times when a submissive is disobedient or tries to change masters mind because of fear, or other inhibitions.  This doesnt mean she is trying to steal his control away from him.  Sometimes it means that she needs his help to get back to the place where she needs to be.  Sometimes communication is needed, or comfort, or whatever.  But submissives are human and not perfect,  and just because they are trying to divert from something that master wants, doesnt neccesarily mean theyre doing it with the intent to control.


thats a hell of a valid point marie, all submissives should be able to voice their opinions and to feel safe in knowing that they are able to talk about things they may feel uncomfortable with and that definately is not trying to control the situation.... excellent add to the thread....

_____________________________

ooooo..I bet THATS gonna leave a mark!!!!

Equal opportunity pisser on-er ... heh..

Gimme some crayons, I want color and I want it now DAMNIT!

(in reply to marieToo)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Topping from the bottom? - 8/24/2006 10:04:48 PM   
Reflectivesoul


Posts: 1777
Joined: 4/25/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrDiscipline44
<stretches and cracks neck> Anytime, sweetheart. I've got a mat with your name and face imprint waiting for you, babe.


the only way my facial imprint would be there is after falling over laughing so hard at erin woopin your ass from the sidelines......

_____________________________

ooooo..I bet THATS gonna leave a mark!!!!

Equal opportunity pisser on-er ... heh..

Gimme some crayons, I want color and I want it now DAMNIT!

(in reply to MrDiscipline44)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Topping from the bottom? - 8/24/2006 10:07:13 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Reflectivesoul
the only way my facial imprint would be there is after falling over laughing so hard at erin woopin your ass from the sidelines......


OMG!!!!.....I'm a pretty good hole digger RS but dang....you are digging me a pretty deep one...lol.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to Reflectivesoul)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Topping from the bottom? - 8/24/2006 10:25:18 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I have not read other responses, but I will weigh in.

I think that one dom may thinking you are topping from the bottom, while another doesn't think this at all. It really is a subjective thing.

Some doms allow their subs to talk, others do not. Some want them to ask for things, some do not. Some like to role play with the SAMMY aspect, others do not. My first dom was very structured during a scene, and I was not allowed to talk, or ask for anything. He would have seen such behavior as topping from the bottom. My Daddy wants this communication.. so it is all individual from my personal experience.. which is not extensive mind you.. just me.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Topping from the bottom? - 8/24/2006 10:35:04 PM   
Reflectivesoul


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Joined: 4/25/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
OMG!!!!.....I'm a pretty good hole digger RS but dang....you are digging me a pretty deep one...lol.


Thats what friend are for dear lol we stand by your side in the jail cell and say " Damn that was fun, lets do it again"
 
and no worries... I'll save ya from any pay backs *winks*

_____________________________

ooooo..I bet THATS gonna leave a mark!!!!

Equal opportunity pisser on-er ... heh..

Gimme some crayons, I want color and I want it now DAMNIT!

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Topping from the bottom? - 8/25/2006 3:38:51 AM   
liljoy


Posts: 577
Joined: 3/25/2004
Status: offline 		hehe no see i was accused of trying to top from the bottom not doing it.. See if i had been accused of doing it then it wouls have been a fault on his part. where as accusing me of trying meant that he recognized it and shut it down.
Perhaps i was trying to top from the bottom. If things were making me unhappy i did make suggestions to and asked for things to change. i guess the bottom line is as long as he was happy with the situation it was fine. if i wasn't and tried to be proactive in changing it i was trying to top from the bottom.
It all gives me a headache. i'm glad i'm out of it

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Topping from the bottom? - 8/25/2006 4:04:40 AM   
subinside


Posts: 233
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Toronto, ON
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

Just in general, I wanted to add a point that I think is valid.  There are times when a submissive isnt intentionally trying to control at all.  There are times when a submissive is disobedient or tries to change masters mind because of fear, or other inhibitions.  This doesnt mean she is trying to steal his control away from him.  Sometimes it means that she needs his help to get back to the place where she needs to be.  Sometimes communication is needed, or comfort, or whatever.  But submissives are human and not perfect,  and just because they are trying to divert from something that master wants, doesnt neccesarily mean theyre doing it with the intent to control.


i have to agree completely with all the points you've made in this thread marie. 

Another thing one would have to consider is the amount of knowledge that the two participants have of each other.  For example, during early meetings, a submissive may not know how to behave because he/she is unsure how much control the Dominant wants/needs.  This could cause the submissive to act in a way that may appear to be topping from the bottom.

i know myself, i can be very submissive, i can be aggressive, i can be many things in between.. it's all a matter of getting to know the other person's wants/needs.

_____________________________

~si

You want me to call You what?... i'll take it under advisement.

000-150-313

(in reply to marieToo)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Topping from the bottom? - 8/25/2006 5:08:30 AM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline 		'Topping from the bottom' is an over used catch phrase akin to 'submission is a gift'.
"Do as told" is fine if it is within the parameters of what has been discussed and agreed to.  Outside of that I have the right to request and/or expect discussion on the matter at hand. 





_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to TemptingNviceSub)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Topping from the bottom? - 8/25/2006 5:15:50 AM   
RavenMuse


Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline 		Toppeing from the bottom....

IMO What it isn't is the sub experessing clearly their own wants and needs. That is simply info I need in order to make MY informed decision.

What it is, is when they don't do things openly, they play stupid games, try to manipulate, brat, sulk to get their own way. Even when the decision has been made they will try to subvert it, not fullfill their Masters wishes. Their focus is on winning some 'battle of wills' not on submission, not on pleasing their Master, but on their childish 'game'.

They try that crap on Me, it doesn't work and if it continues they soon find themselves looking for another shmuck to play their 'games' with!


_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to TemptingNviceSub)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Topping from the bottom? - 8/25/2006 9:26:26 AM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

FR:

If the dom simply spits it out and then tries to barrel ahead, usually it's because they are trying to shame you into doing what they want and making an excuse for what's going on.

If the dom actually discusses what happens and makes sure you understand their perspective and you feel positive about the ultimate outcome (assuming YOU are open to working it through and coming to understanding their perspective) then likely you were attempting to manipulate things without the ok.

I am shamlessly copying what Em said and agreeing....
 
Oh and agreeing with Relflective as well...
 
quote:

Sorry D Babes, we're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one because if someone has to "play" at being submissive they aren't submissive at all, thus its a game for them. That doesnt constitute topping from the bottom at all because they arent actually a bottom, they arent actually submissive, so you cant say they are doing something that would be a foreign concept to them as they arent an actual part of the D/s dynamic in the first place....

 
Peace and Rapture


_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Topping from the bottom? - 8/25/2006 9:31:27 AM   
SexyRed


Posts: 529
Joined: 8/19/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Reflectivesoul

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

Just in general, I wanted to add a point that I think is valid.  There are times when a submissive isnt intentionally trying to control at all.  There are times when a submissive is disobedient or tries to change masters mind because of fear, or other inhibitions.  This doesnt mean she is trying to steal his control away from him.  Sometimes it means that she needs his help to get back to the place where she needs to be.  Sometimes communication is needed, or comfort, or whatever.  But submissives are human and not perfect,  and just because they are trying to divert from something that master wants, doesnt neccesarily mean theyre doing it with the intent to control.


thats a hell of a valid point marie, all submissives should be able to voice their opinions and to feel safe in knowing that they are able to talk about things they may feel uncomfortable with and that definately is not trying to control the situation.... excellent add to the thread....


All true, and precisely why I hate that term, topping from the bottom. The expression of your own needs, for me, is paramount to my enjoyment and my partner. It is not about controlling anything but more to maximize what should be a sublime experience.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Reflectivesoul)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Topping from the bottom? - 8/25/2006 9:45:50 AM   
marieToo


Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: subinside

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

Just in general, I wanted to add a point that I think is valid.  There are times when a submissive isnt intentionally trying to control at all.  There are times when a submissive is disobedient or tries to change masters mind because of fear, or other inhibitions.  This doesnt mean she is trying to steal his control away from him.  Sometimes it means that she needs his help to get back to the place where she needs to be.  Sometimes communication is needed, or comfort, or whatever.  But submissives are human and not perfect,  and just because they are trying to divert from something that master wants, doesnt neccesarily mean theyre doing it with the intent to control.


i have to agree completely with all the points you've made in this thread marie. 

Another thing one would have to consider is the amount of knowledge that the two participants have of each other.  For example, during early meetings, a submissive may not know how to behave because he/she is unsure how much control the Dominant wants/needs.  This could cause the submissive to act in a way that may appear to be topping from the bottom.

i know myself, i can be very submissive, i can be aggressive, i can be many things in between.. it's all a matter of getting to know the other person's wants/needs.


Oh.  Exactly.  There could be so many reasons for it....reasons that can be rectified if both parties sincerely want to make it work and are inclined to put forth the effort.  I would add to that the fact that trust is also a big part of this.  And I know thats an over played statement too, but it makes all the difference.  I can be very protective of myself in ways that would appear to be aggression.  Almost like that scared animal cowering in defense mode. BUT...if the dominant in question has made the effort to foster trust and allowed me a little bit of room for "imperfection" while that trust is developing, it would be recognised simply as my need to feel safe one step at a time,  before being able to totally let go and obey without hesistation or question.  But with alot of dominants (and Im not saying ALL of them) but alot of them want instant gratification and instant obedience, and when it cant be given right away they tend to fling the accusation of topping from the bottom. 
I can speak for myself personally when I say that the last thing I want is to control.  I thrive from being controlled and I thrive on being obedient and pleasing.  If  I wanted to top someone, well....I'd try my hand at being a domme.  And I would imagine that most submissives do not desire control.  I tend to think that some who may appear to be 'topping from the bottom' are actually begging their dominant to actually be dominant. 

(in reply to subinside)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Topping from the bottom? - 8/25/2006 9:51:46 AM   
MrDiscipline44


Posts: 1776
Joined: 1/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Reflectivesoul

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

Just in general, I wanted to add a point that I think is valid.  There are times when a submissive isnt intentionally trying to control at all.  There are times when a submissive is disobedient or tries to change masters mind because of fear, or other inhibitions.  This doesnt mean she is trying to steal his control away from him.  Sometimes it means that she needs his help to get back to the place where she needs to be.  Sometimes communication is needed, or comfort, or whatever.  But submissives are human and not perfect,  and just because they are trying to divert from something that master wants, doesnt neccesarily mean theyre doing it with the intent to control.


thats a hell of a valid point marie, all submissives should be able to voice their opinions and to feel safe in knowing that they are able to talk about things they may feel uncomfortable with and that definately is not trying to control the situation.... excellent add to the thread....
Maybe the basic concepts of a D/s relationship is not being expressed or recieved correctly here but if the submissive/bottom/slave is trying to subvert control from or sway control over the Dominant in the relationship, this is topping from the bottom. Whether its from fear or inhibitions. It shows a lack of trust in the Dominant, in the relationship and shows that the submissive has a lack of ability to communicate. Communication isn't sometimes needed, it's always needed and it's needed by both sides. The same with trust. The submissive that tops from the bottom is doing a disservice not only to her Dominant but also to herself as well.
 
As for this:
quote:

just because they are trying to divert from something that master wants, doesnt neccesarily mean theyre doing it with the intent to control.
Actually the submissive is trying to exert control over the Dominant when she is trying to change the outcome to something other then what the Dominants wants. Hence it is TFTB. Now this doesn't mean that the submissive shouldn't voice an opinion, fear, or inhabition to her Dominant. To me a relationship like that is doomed to feel. I know I wouldn't want my girls to not talk to me about things. But it does mean that if the Dominant says "This is the way its going to be" then thats the way it will be. The Dominant in the relationship is the one who should be guiding it, not the submissive.

_____________________________

If you love somebody, you have to be willing to break them.

Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.

Have you slapped your slave today?

(in reply to Reflectivesoul)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Topping from the bottom? - 8/25/2006 10:02:19 AM   
Homestead


Posts: 1005
Status: offline 		This topping from the bottom thing is so much insecure bullshit.

No one can make me do something I don't want to. If someone pushes me, I just sidestep it.

I don't bother to resist, I simply don't comply. On the other hand, communication is not ignored.

But what I do about it is up to me. Someone who wants control will usually get fed up with me and move along rather quickly.

(in reply to MrDiscipline44)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Topping from the bottom? - 8/25/2006 10:23:27 AM   
Reflectivesoul


Posts: 1777
Joined: 4/25/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrDiscipline44
Maybe the basic concepts of a D/s relationship is not being expressed or recieved correctly here but if the submissive/bottom/slave is trying to subvert control from or sway control over the Dominant in the relationship, this is topping from the bottom. Whether its from fear or inhibitions. It shows a lack of trust in the Dominant, in the relationship and shows that the submissive has a lack of ability to communicate. Communication isn't sometimes needed, it's always needed and it's needed by both sides. The same with trust. The submissive that tops from the bottom is doing a disservice not only to her Dominant but also to herself as well.


D....
 
I think we are hitting two different bases here Hun. An open line of communication is what I was referring too, not some misbehavior and trying to manipulate the situation to their liking. I also think that marie was aiming more twords the communication part as well ( I could be wrong... wouldnt be the first time and wont be the last for sure lol)...
 
I dont see a submissive that is taking an active role in deciding what things they like or dislike, want to explore or not explore, enjoy or not enjoy as topping from the bottom. I would much rather see a submissive taking an active role and helping to create a situation where a Dominant can lead steadily and without question, rather than to see a submissive who keeps everything to themselves for fear of being accused of stepping out of lines or topping from the bottom.
 
It is human nature to fear, doubt, question, and sometimes even act out accordingly to these feelings, but for me ( disclaimer YMMV) I think that the lines of reacting to these things crosses over into being unacceptable when it causes some kind of tantrum or other display of poor self control and behavior. Up to that point I believe everyone should have a voice and should feel free to use it.
 
When a voice is lost or continually covered up you end up with door mats and self esteems that are nonexistant and I just dont see there being a strong Dominant that wants someone who has no goals, ambitions, dreams, desires,.....
 
< end ramble> lol

_____________________________

ooooo..I bet THATS gonna leave a mark!!!!

Equal opportunity pisser on-er ... heh..

Gimme some crayons, I want color and I want it now DAMNIT!

(in reply to MrDiscipline44)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Topping from the bottom? - 8/25/2006 10:50:24 AM   
MrDiscipline44


Posts: 1776
Joined: 1/5/2005
Status: offline 		RS, this is where I think our miscommunication lies:
quote:

I dont see a submissive that is taking an active role in deciding what things they like or dislike, want to explore or not explore, enjoy or not enjoy as topping from the bottom. I would much rather see a submissive taking an active role and helping to create a situation where a Dominant can lead steadily and without question, rather than to see a submissive who keeps everything to themselves for fear of being accused of stepping out of lines or topping from the bottom.
According to this, you think that if the submissive isn't taking an active role in the direction of the relationship then they are not being allowed to express anything in it. I'm saying that a submissive can express their opinions, thoughts, fears or what-not but the Dominant is still the deciding factor in the relationship. The submissive can be passive in the realtionship and still express themselves. It's called trust and it's a requirment if a D/s is going to work. I must trust that as the submissive, you will do as I tell you. You must trust that as the Dominant, I will only make you do what I think is best for you, me and us as a whole.

_____________________________

If you love somebody, you have to be willing to break them.

Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.

Have you slapped your slave today?

(in reply to Reflectivesoul)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Topping from the bottom? - 8/25/2006 11:12:38 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrDiscipline44
The submissive can be passive in the realtionship and still express themselves.

It doesn't even have to be passive (lord knows *I* don't want passive subs). 

Topping from the bottom is manipulating or attempting to manipulate the dom coercively.

Attempting to manipulate the dom when everyone knows and is ok with you attempting to manipulate the dom is fine.  It's when you're trying to hide the manipulation that it becomes a problem.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to MrDiscipline44)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Topping from the bottom? - 8/25/2006 11:35:38 AM   
Sunshine119


Posts: 611
Joined: 8/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrDiscipline44
The submissive can be passive in the realtionship and still express themselves.

It doesn't even have to be passive (lord knows *I* don't want passive subs). 

Topping from the bottom is manipulating or attempting to manipulate the dom coercively.

Attempting to manipulate the dom when everyone knows and is ok with you attempting to manipulate the dom is fine.  It's when you're trying to hide the manipulation that it becomes a problem.


Good Lawd!  I can imagine His Highness enjoying someone who just lays there passively.  I am extremely high spirited and he knows that at any moment, especially when things get more and more intense, he can expect me to fight back, bite, etc.  Somehow it all adds to the play, the passion, the heat.  If you can only Dominate passivity, how good of a Dominant are you?

It all boils down to what you want.  If you really want a passive sub who does everything you ask without question, perhaps a blow up doll would be a better option!


_____________________________


Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Topping from the bottom? - 8/25/2006 11:38:57 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunshine119
Good Lawd!  I can imagine His Highness enjoying someone who just lays there passively.  I am extremely high spirited and he knows that at any moment, especially when things get more and more intense, he can expect me to fight back, bite, etc.  Somehow it all adds to the play, the passion, the heat.  If you can only Dominate passivity, how good of a Dominant are you?

It all boils down to what you want.  If you really want a passive sub who does everything you ask without question, perhaps a blow up doll would be a better option!


Well that goes a bit too far.  Most people enjoy being able to be passive at some times, and occasionally being passive is a good thing.  It certainly doesn't mean a dom wants a robot or isn't capable or that the slave is weak because they are oriented to be very passive.

It's all about preferences and what your needs are.  For me, I fight back, but only after getting permission to do so each time.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Sunshine119)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Topping from the bottom? - 8/25/2006 11:50:02 AM   
MrDiscipline44


Posts: 1776
Joined: 1/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunshine119

Good Lawd!  I can imagine His Highness enjoying someone who just lays there passively.  I am extremely high spirited and he knows that at any moment, especially when things get more and more intense, he can expect me to fight back, bite, etc.  Somehow it all adds to the play, the passion, the heat.  If you can only Dominate passivity, how good of a Dominant are you?

It all boils down to what you want.  If you really want a passive sub who does everything you ask without question, perhaps a blow up doll would be a better option!

Here you go, Sunshine, install this glass belly button so you can better understand what it is we're talking about. It's not about fighting while playing i.e S/M. It's about who has authority and control in the relationship i.e. D/s. If your D told you to not to do something, would you do it anyway? Or would you do as he tells you?

_____________________________

If you love somebody, you have to be willing to break them.

Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.

Have you slapped your slave today?

(in reply to Sunshine119)
Profile   Post #: 40
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