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RE: Topping from the bottom? - 8/25/2006 11:59:02 AM   
Reflectivesoul


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Joined: 4/25/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrDiscipline44

According to this, you think that if the submissive isn't taking an active role in the direction of the relationship then they are not being allowed to express anything in it. I'm saying that a submissive can express their opinions, thoughts, fears or what-not but the Dominant is still the deciding factor in the relationship. The submissive can be passive in the realtionship and still express themselves. It's called trust and it's a requirment if a D/s is going to work. I must trust that as the submissive, you will do as I tell you. You must trust that as the Dominant, I will only make you do what I think is best for you, me and us as a whole.


I'm definately not saying that if a submissive is passive ( at certain point) that they arent having an input, what I am saying though is that when a submissive has a fear or doubt that they have the ultimate right to express it. The point being drawn when that expression begins to cause the dynamic to be thrown off and where the submissive takes the respect out of the factor.
 
I also have a bit of an issue that in the end it is a Dominants will or nadda... a relationship is a two way street no matter the d/s involvement or not. There is always a constant choice in a power situation, one who wants tocontrol the situation and one who gives their control to someone else. There is a choice there on the submissives half, if they are actually going to give that control up at that exact moment or not. If someone pushes when there is an obvious concern on behalf of the submissive it will cause problems ( if it is a situation that is felt negatively by the submissive and it isnt resolved and instead pushed against until relented.... <good in some cases bad in others> which can cause there to be harbored ill feelings on the submissives behalf. The solution to this is open lines of communication and respect on both sides of the fence. )
 
Just because I may wear my Domme boots and say this is what I want and I want it now, certainly doesnt mean I am going to get it my way. There has to be a basis in which both parties are comfortable and willing to compromise ( to a degree) when there are concerns or fears on one side of the dynamic.  There also has to be an understanding that if you are knowingly pushing a soft limit that you are going to strike up some fear in the submissive and that you have to be able to let go of the " because I said so" and cater to the feelings that are going through your submissive.
 
Now I know not all situations end up where this would be a defining moment of topping from the bottom but I have seen one too many times where someone gets so caught up in the " me tarzan you jane, you do what I say when I say" and they lose sight of the other person entirely. When things blow up they blame it on the sub wanting their way or "topping from the bottom" when in all reality it was the Dominants lack of respect for the submissives mindset and feelings and they instead tried to barrel through them because it is what They wanted.
 
Yes there has to be an enormous amount of trust on both sides in order for there to be a solid ground. I agree with that completely, but there also has to be the understanding that the very real feelings on both sides are also being attended to. ( and sorry but sometimes, many times too often one sides feelings get trampled on and shot down because " I said it'll be this way and I'm king shit so you better listen"...)
 
YMMV IMO

_____________________________

ooooo..I bet THATS gonna leave a mark!!!!

Equal opportunity pisser on-er ... heh..

Gimme some crayons, I want color and I want it now DAMNIT!

(in reply to MrDiscipline44)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Topping from the bottom? - 8/25/2006 12:11:26 PM   
Viper001


Posts: 55
Joined: 8/8/2005
From: SF, California
Status: offline
quote:

Just in general, I wanted to add a point that I think is valid. There are times when a submissive isnt intentionally trying to control at all. There are times when a submissive is disobedient or tries to change masters mind because of fear, or other inhibitions. This doesnt mean she is trying to steal his control away from him. Sometimes it means that she needs his help to get back to the place where she needs to be. Sometimes communication is needed, or comfort, or whatever. But submissives are human and not perfect, and just because they are trying to divert from something that master wants, doesnt neccesarily mean theyre doing it with the intent to control.


Very valid point.

Stray thought.
If these fears/inhibitions are expressed openly and honestly, and the decision to proceed or not is still left to the dominant partner, then we have communication and a peaceful resolution to the problem (one would hope).
If the submissive misbehaves/pouts/<insert negative behaviour here> in an attempt to divert the dominant partner, intentional or otherwise, could this not be construed as manipulation and/or "topping from the bottom" ?

Respectfully,
RFJM
(waits for the flames while braiding a 4-footer)


(in reply to marieToo)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Topping from the bottom? - 8/25/2006 12:14:49 PM   
Reflectivesoul


Posts: 1777
Joined: 4/25/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrDiscipline44

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunshine119

Good Lawd!  I can imagine His Highness enjoying someone who just lays there passively.  I am extremely high spirited and he knows that at any moment, especially when things get more and more intense, he can expect me to fight back, bite, etc.  Somehow it all adds to the play, the passion, the heat.  If you can only Dominate passivity, how good of a Dominant are you?

It all boils down to what you want.  If you really want a passive sub who does everything you ask without question, perhaps a blow up doll would be a better option!

Here you go, Sunshine, install this glass belly button so you can better understand what it is we're talking about. It's not about fighting while playing i.e S/M. It's about who has authority and control in the relationship i.e. D/s. If your D told you to not to do something, would you do it anyway? Or would you do as he tells you?


D.... you definately need a new bowl of cheerios hun... or a trip to the wrestling mat...
 
I kind of agreed with what Sunshine posted... KIND OF ...
 
The main part being that sometimes fighting back etc adds to the whole dynamic ( I kinda like that word lol.. I'ma make it muh word for the day lol ).
 
I happen to think the blow up doll part was out of line ( even if I thought it was funny... )
 
I think I have a bit of an upper hand on your ideas and such though cause we have talked a LOT and I know you arent one of those " His Highness" types. ( although Babes if I didnt know ya sometimes I'd wonder *winks* thats why the mat is always a good option lol )
 
Sunshine I can absolutely see where you were coming from but I can relatively safely say that D isnt one of those " His Highness" kind of Doms. ( Stubborn yeah... but thats why we like him lol heh) I think its safe to say too that we have all met those kinds of Doms as well, and they are usually the ones to whine, complain, and bitch about how all submissives are just fakes, players... yadda yadda... I think also that the type of Doms being considered here arent the ones we would be running to talk with either. We tend to lable those ones as " not especially on the friends list".
 
So it would basically boil down to individuality ( as Sunshine said) its what *YOU* as a person want. Because above all else in this life we are human first and foremost and before we can ever be anything to someone else, we have to be something to ourselves..
 
 

_____________________________

ooooo..I bet THATS gonna leave a mark!!!!

Equal opportunity pisser on-er ... heh..

Gimme some crayons, I want color and I want it now DAMNIT!

(in reply to MrDiscipline44)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Topping from the bottom? - 8/25/2006 12:22:21 PM   
Reflectivesoul


Posts: 1777
Joined: 4/25/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Viper001
Stray thought.
If these fears/inhibitions are expressed openly and honestly, and the decision to proceed or not is still left to the dominant partner then we have communication and a peaceful resolution to the problem (one would hope).
If the submissive misbehaves/pouts/<insert negative behaviour here> in an attempt to divert the dominant partner, intentional or otherwise, could this not be construed as manipulation and/or "topping from the bottom" ?

Respectfully,
RFJM
(waits for the flames while braiding a 4-footer)


I think that if there is a peaceful resolution to the problem then there would be no need for the submissive to display negative behaviors, if there is whining and such after a resolution is made then there is still obviously a problem.
 
I also think that when these behaviors are being used for some kind of personal gratification on the subs behalf that it isnt a matter of trying to top from the bottom as it is the submissive has lost their sense of respect for the situation/ relationship. Which in my mind equates with a break down of communication somewhere in the lines.
 
On the other hand I know several submissives that I call S.A.M.'s and its is just in their nature to be a brat, but this is usually in a whole different context than where this topic is heading ( I think? ) because to me a S.A.M. doesnt act out as a way to control the situation, its just playful and keeps things spicy and fun, not meant in a malicious or derrogatory way for the relationship.... ( god I hope that made sense cause it sounded weird even typing it... but for the sake of argument I know what I meant lol... lol )

_____________________________

ooooo..I bet THATS gonna leave a mark!!!!

Equal opportunity pisser on-er ... heh..

Gimme some crayons, I want color and I want it now DAMNIT!

(in reply to Viper001)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Topping from the bottom? - 8/25/2006 12:24:29 PM   
Viper001


Posts: 55
Joined: 8/8/2005
From: SF, California
Status: offline
quote:

Good Lawd! I can imagine His Highness enjoying someone who just lays there passively. I am extremely high spirited and he knows that at any moment, especially when things get more and more intense, he can expect me to fight back, bite, etc. Somehow it all adds to the play, the passion, the heat. If you can only Dominate passivity, how good of a Dominant are you?

It all boils down to what you want. If you really want a passive sub who does everything you ask without question, perhaps a blow up doll would be a better option!


Apologies to the list.
I must have missed something along the way, in thinking that the discussion revolved around daily life/issues.

Where play is concerned, I'm all for resistance play, lol ,,,,, the more the better.
Where daily life is concerned, however, I find cooperation and clear communication much more productive. Certainly not the "one and only way", but works for us.

Respectfully,
RFJM

(in reply to Sunshine119)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Topping from the bottom? - 8/25/2006 12:28:29 PM   
Sunshine119


Posts: 611
Joined: 8/8/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrDiscipline44
. If your D told you to not to do something, would you do it anyway? Or would you do as he tells you?


That is a very difficult question to answer without knowing the particular circumstance. It would all depend on the particulars. I am not a robot nor a blow up doll!

***handing you back your glass belly button*****




_____________________________


Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away.

(in reply to MrDiscipline44)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Topping from the bottom? - 8/25/2006 12:32:59 PM   
Viper001


Posts: 55
Joined: 8/8/2005
From: SF, California
Status: offline
quote:

On the other hand I know several submissives that I call S.A.M.'s and its is just in their nature to be a brat, but this is usually in a whole different context than where this topic is heading ( I think? ) because to me a S.A.M. doesnt act out as a way to control the situation, its just playful and keeps things spicy and fun, not meant in a malicious or derrogatory way for the relationship.... ( god I hope that made sense cause it sounded weird even typing it... but for the sake of argument I know what I meant lol... lol )


Crystal clear, well stated, and quite common in our community. My own slave can be a SAM at times, but as you say - it's lighthearted, humorous and just for fun. 'Tis a whole different thing and (immho) not even in the same ballpark as the OP.
I can also agree with you that if a submissive feels the need to manipulate, then there are some problems at the core of the relationship. Pardon, it was my assumption that this was already understood and addressed only the topic "topping from the bottom".

Regards,
RFJM

(in reply to Reflectivesoul)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Topping from the bottom? - 8/25/2006 12:36:11 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Viper001
I can also agree with you that if a submissive feels the need to manipulate, then there are some problems at the core of the relationship. Pardon, it was my assumption that this was already understood and addressed only the topic "topping from the bottom".

Regards,
RFJM

Not necessarily.  Manipulation is not always bad.  Say you're in a bad mood and your sub does all sorts of things to try and bring your mood to a better place.  She's manipulating the heck out of you but I'd consider it a good thing.

The problem comes when she tries to HIDE the manipulation, or manipulates you with knowledge that it's not the right thing to do- for example, if you've told her to leave you alone and she still keeps trying to crawl on the floor and make you smile. 

But manipulation in and of itself doesn't mean good or bad.

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Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Viper001)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Topping from the bottom? - 8/25/2006 12:42:06 PM   
Sunshine119


Posts: 611
Joined: 8/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Viper001

Apologies to the list.
I must have missed something along the way, in thinking that the discussion revolved around daily life/issues.

Where play is concerned, I'm all for resistance play, lol ,,,,, the more the better.
Where daily life is concerned, however, I find cooperation and clear communication much more productive. Certainly not the "one and only way", but works for us.

Respectfully,
RFJM


Alot of what was written was about topping from the bottom during scenes or such.  In essence, trying to run the show.  As far as D/s is concerned, when we have a disagreement we discuss it, discuss it and if need be discuss it some more.  If we still disagree, I'll do it his way.  Unless we agree to disagree. 

For instance, I'm a socialist and he's a rabid conservative.  I'm sure you can imagine the arguments that go on in our home in regards to these issues.  However, after really worrying about our differences breaking us up, we decided this would be one of those things we would have to agree to disagree upon.  Do we still fight about politics....hell, yes.  Just because he is a conservative, there is no way he's converting me to the dark side.  But, either one of us can call an "end" when the verbal abuses start being hurled and we've both agreed to stop because what we have is too precious to lose over these differences.  I don't get punished for calling "W" a mass murderer for instance and I don't hold it against him when he calls me a traitor.  I'll still cook for him, wash and iron his clothes, serve him and performs all of the rituals we have set up for the day.

We just let it go and go watch the Yankees game (even though I'm a Mets fan, he can have control of the TV for the Yankees).   lol

Sunshine


_____________________________


Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away.

(in reply to Viper001)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Topping from the bottom? - 8/25/2006 12:46:33 PM   
Viper001


Posts: 55
Joined: 8/8/2005
From: SF, California
Status: offline 		<doffs his beat up old cowboy hat in ms LA's direction>

Obviously I'm a much better whipmaker than a wordsmith.
Agree with you in all respects, intellectually. I just have an aversion to manipulation in any form - but that's just me. :)

Respectfully,
RFJM

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Topping from the bottom? - 8/25/2006 1:00:36 PM   
LotusSong


Posts: 6334
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Domme Emeritus
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TemptingNviceSub

Topping from the bottom!...Ach this term gives me such a headache!...so many ideas and definitions on what is considered topping...My question is..when a Dominant accuses a submissive of topping, is it really?..or is it simply a way for a Dominant to pull the plug on a possibly uncomfortable discussion on a relationship issue?....This question came to mind from another thread that is running and I did not wish to hijack it.....Tempting


In our case, topping from the bottom occurs when he has a better Idea :)

_____________________________

Life Lesson #1

I'm not your type.
I'm not inflatable.


(in reply to TemptingNviceSub)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Topping from the bottom? - 8/25/2006 2:48:39 PM   
marieToo


Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
Status: offline 		General reply to the continuing discussion:

I think its all in the 'intentions'. 

Example A:   If a submissive is deliberately trying to undermine the dominant with the intention to override what he wants for no other reason than she just doesnt feel like obiding to his will, then it can be classified as attempting to "top from the bottom", which really is a situation, in my opinion where the Ds dymanic doesnt genuinely exist. 

Example B:  A submissive trying to squirm out of something not because he/she is dissing their dom, but because maybe theyre 'unprepared' for where the dominant is trying to take them.  In a case like this, communication, guidence, help, patience, etc is needed on the dominant's part in order to get the submissive beyond this 'lack of obedience' that may not at ALL be intentional topping from the bottom.  In my own experiences, when I have been unable to obey something it tears me apart inside and I almost want to beg for my dominants help.   No way do I want to intentionally try to underhandedly control him.  Yet it would still appear to be disobedience or refusal, but not because of unwillingness to please, but because of fear, or being pushed too hard or too fast, or what have you. I think there is a HUGE difference between these two examples.

< Message edited by marieToo -- 8/25/2006 2:52:25 PM >

(in reply to LotusSong)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Topping from the bottom? - 8/25/2006 6:11:25 PM   
ladylexington


Posts: 117
Joined: 6/7/2005
Status: offline 		First, masochists can't top from the bottom. There's no power exchange to resist against. If a masochist asks me to type him/her up tighter, I'll probably oblige. After all, we're just having a good time.

Second, all submissives top from the bottom at some point. (I know that pissed some of you off a lot, but no rotten tomatoes please.) I think that topping from the bottom is healthy, as long as it's addressed. As a relationship grows, and the dominant assumes more control over the submissive, many submissives actively or passively resist. It's a natural form of self protection.

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(in reply to Reflectivesoul)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Topping from the bottom? - 8/25/2006 6:40:54 PM   
TemptingNviceSub


Posts: 3054
Joined: 10/1/2005
Status: offline 		Thank you all so much for your replies..I can see that the answers are as diverse as each relationship unfolds..I suppose I was trying to understand the mindset of a Dominant in a D/s setting where upon the submissive was trying to communicate with the Dominant about her/his perception of a problem within the dynamic but was shut down due to the Dominants claim of submissive "Topping from the bottom".That possibly what the submissive had to say was uncomfortable for him and thus instead of discussing the issue he simply shut the conversation down. Is this the way it should be where the Dominant decides if the communication is valid? Or is it simply avoidance?...Honesty or convenience?....Tempting

(in reply to ladylexington)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Topping from the bottom? - 8/25/2006 7:23:17 PM   
liljoy


Posts: 577
Joined: 3/25/2004
Status: offline 		thanks for this topic btw. in my case it seems to me that as long as he was happy with the situation it was fine even if i wasn't happy.
He was happy with sex once or twice and month.
i wanted it a bit more then that

play maybe four times in a year was fine for him
Not so much for me

He thought as long as we were in the same room together we were spending time together even if his eyes seldom left the tv screen or monitor.
This would have been fine for me some time but not all the time

i think some of those answering your question haven't seen the other thread and so don't understand the context of the question

(in reply to TemptingNviceSub)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Topping from the bottom? - 8/26/2006 9:17:35 PM   
TemptingNviceSub


Posts: 3054
Joined: 10/1/2005
Status: offline 		Nods...I think you are right...If you dont read the other forum..then yes maybe I am not making my question clear enough..I thought I could make it a seperate issue but sometimes I am not the greatest writer and make clear my thought processes...be well..Tempting

(in reply to liljoy)
Profile   Post #: 56
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