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RE: The Bomb. - 8/26/2006 6:42:43 AM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		In fact Britain bombed Berlin in hope the Germans would retaliate by bombing British cities and move away from their strategy of concentrating bombardment on airfields which was proving very costly to the defence of Britain. The Germans obliged and thought they could bomb Britain into submission. A huge strategic mistake by the Germans which showed how militarily fruitless the murder of innocent civilians is. Bombing cities is a moral question, not a miliary one.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 8/26/2006 6:43:11 AM >

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RE: The Bomb. - 8/26/2006 7:02:49 AM   
CrappyDom


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Status: offline 		Japan deserved anything we did to her.

Try reading the book "The Rape of Nanking" or about unit 86, or the Korean women used as sex slaves for the army.

The Japanese were so ready to surrender that civilians would jump off cliffs rather than surrender, this happened more and more the closer we got to the home islands.  The loss of ships to Kamikaze strikes was growing and the closer we got to the home islands the easier those strikes would be.

The atomic bombs killed less people than our firebombing of cities like Tokyo.

The surrender feelers from Japan were just that, feelers from insignificant players.  It would be like future historians declaring America wanted to be understanding of the Muslims plight and didn't really want to make war on them because there were those in America who felt that way.  The military was running Japan and had been all along, the Emporor was in many ways a figurehead, or at least an empty head who exercised no control on a day to day basis.  The could surrender, they didn't, in fact, many fought on for decades in the jungle.

As for the morality of targeting German and Japanese cities in general, that is another issue. 

If dropping those two bombs made the Russians more cautious in dealing with the West and prevented us turning on one another after WWII, how many lives did that save? 

Lets not forget that Japan had been waging a brutal war of conquest and occupation over the entire far east from as  far south as Australia, as far North as Alaska, and of course as far east as the California Coast and had a long history of targeting civilians.

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RE: The Bomb. - 8/26/2006 7:07:45 AM   
pahunkboy


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Status: offline 		Chances are- if you are reading this you can thank a WW2 vet.

I have a sour taste in my mouth- that we would try to cheapen their sacrafice.

WW2 vets ARE HEROS!

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RE: The Bomb. - 8/26/2006 8:16:45 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

If dropping those two bombs made the Russians more cautious in dealing with the West and prevented us turning on one another after WWII, how many lives did that save? 



I don't buy the premise that Russia had imperial ambitions in the west. Russia wanted a cordon sanitaire of buffer states between itself and the west, having suffered several costly invasions from the west. US presence in Europe was what made Russian paranoid but released documents since the fall of the USSR make it abundantly clear it had no ambitions to the west, it never thought it had the military capability to be the aggressor and defence was its paramount concern. It was the US that placed nukes in Turkey which so threatened the USSR to make it want to place nukes on Cuba. The US alway had an irrational fear of Russia, mainly whipped up through paranoiac anti-communist propaganda at home. While Europe was concerned about the USSR it was also concerned about the US because any war was going to be fought on European soil and most Europeans felt we were the USA's forward defence and disposable to the US, one of the reasons why France was reluctant to be involved in the military wing of NATO and decided to go alone as a nuclear power.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 8/26/2006 8:18:42 AM >

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RE: The Bomb. - 8/26/2006 8:19:44 AM   
LotusSong


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RE: The Bomb. - 8/26/2006 8:26:10 AM   
popeye1250


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RE: The Bomb. - 8/26/2006 8:29:33 AM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		Imperial Japan gets no sympathy from me though I still think it was every bit as criminal to purposely nuke civilian populations as it was criminal of Britain to start the carpet bombing on German cities.

We prosecuted and executed Germans and Japanese for murdering civilians so what is the difference between them and us. Of course, only the defeated are tried for war crimes but is there a moral difference between winners and losers when it comes to mass murder?

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 8/26/2006 8:34:04 AM >

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RE: The Bomb. - 8/26/2006 9:07:51 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		Meatcleaver..there will never be any shortage of hypocracy and supercillious (wow) humbug in the world. Witness Churchill's disgraceful attitude vis a vis "Bomber" Harris and his strategic bombing campaign of Germany.

What we are discussing is what should be done in a murderous give no quarter armed struggle. Its easy to change the slant on things using hindsight. The bombs stopped the WAR.

Its a new one on me that the Yanks did it to protect China  from the Soviet Union tho' My guess is nothing would have pleased the US more than to see a USSR/China conflict.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 8/26/2006 9:09:51 AM >

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RE: The Bomb. - 8/26/2006 9:17:56 AM   
MrDiscipline44


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Status: offline 		Personally, I really don't think it matters if we were justified or not. Whats done is done and we can't take it back. From that day on, America has forever put itself in the path of stone-throwers as a target both in word and in action. This will not change until the America that we are has changed. And I don't think that the America that we are will last for much longer. It can't last for much longer.

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RE: The Bomb. - 8/26/2006 9:50:50 AM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrDiscipline44

Personally, I really don't think it matters if we were justified or not. Whats done is done and we can't take it back. From that day on, America has forever put itself in the path of stone-throwers as a target both in word and in action. This will not change until the America that we are has changed. And I don't think that the America that we are will last for much longer. It can't last for much longer.


D, what changes do you see coming?

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RE: The Bomb. - 8/26/2006 9:59:38 AM   
RiotGirl


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Status: offline 		This is a fast reply....

i've an interesting question.

Why do you care?  Its over and done with!  They used the bomb.. the penis's shrunk...

and what?

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RE: The Bomb. - 8/26/2006 10:07:35 AM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		It set a precedent. How can a country that has used nuclear weapons occupy the moral high ground and accuse others of not being responsible enough to possess nuclear weapons because they might use them?

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RE: The Bomb. - 8/26/2006 10:09:11 AM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RiotGirl

This is a fast reply....

i've an interesting question.

Why do you care?  Its over and done with!  They used the bomb.. the penis's shrunk...

and what?



I don't know, mine's still pretty big.
 
People care about history because it's a part of us, and sometimes we can learn from it.

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RE: The Bomb. - 8/26/2006 10:24:41 AM   
gooddogbenji


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

Chances are- if you are reading this you can thank a WW2 vet.

I have a sour taste in my mouth- that we would try to cheapen their sacrafice.

WW2 vets ARE HEROS!



Even the German ones?

And technically, you can thank a WW1 vet, a cold war vet, a War of the Roses vet, a 'Nam vet, and any other war veteran who fought in a war which could have expanded or affected, directly or indirectly, the expansion or destruction of a larger power.  And the civilians who worked in conjunction with the armed forces.  And the civilians who did not directly work with them, but whose work affected the nation at large (Need I go on?)

The only way we can cheapen a sacrifice is to take it as a given that it was right, rather than examine it critically and conclude that, either it was, indeed, right, or to use the wrongs commited to prevent the same wrongs from happening again.

Yours,


benji

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RE: The Bomb. - 8/26/2006 10:34:03 AM   
ScooterTrash


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

It set a precedent. How can a country that has used nuclear weapons occupy the moral high ground and accuse others of not being responsible enough to possess nuclear weapons because they might use them?
It's a bit more than just one country and yes, perhaps it seems backwards that the "one" who used it is very upfront about regulation. But as mentioned before, it was used in a hostile wartime environment, we didn't have the habit (at least then) of just attacking countries on a whim. My perception of it all is that the global opinion/regulation of who and who cannot obtain and maintain nuclear technology is highly based on past behavour. Sort of like if you are a kid and have a habit of shooting a BB gun at your sister, it's likely there won't be 12 gage shotgun under the Xmas tree with your name on it.

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RE: The Bomb. - 8/26/2006 10:38:48 AM   
Level


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Status: offline 		Terrific post, Scooter.

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RE: The Bomb. - 8/26/2006 10:43:35 AM   
Bearlee


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...peeks in to wave at Level.  I think He's da bomb! 
 
heh heh heh
bearlee

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RE: The Bomb. - 8/26/2006 10:44:39 AM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bearlee



...peeks in to wave at Level.  I think He's da bomb! 
 
heh heh heh
bearlee


*waves to the lovely bearlee*  

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

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RE: The Bomb. - 8/26/2006 10:49:56 AM   
ScooterTrash


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

Terrific post, Scooter.
Thanks Level. Well..it just makes sense doesn't it? The primary reason discipline occurs in the first place, is probably because the discipliner tried it and had poor or damaging results. Saying we shouldn't have the right to say NO, is like having burnt ourselves on a hot stove and not having the right to keep them away from it because they may be burnt too. Who cares who set the bad example..it's still a bad example and something should have been learned from it.  

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RE: The Bomb. - 8/26/2006 11:02:38 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ScooterTrash

It's a bit more than just one country and yes, perhaps it seems backwards that the "one" who used it is very upfront about regulation. But as mentioned before, it was used in a hostile wartime environment, we didn't have the habit (at least then) of just attacking countries on a whim. My perception of it all is that the global opinion/regulation of who and who cannot obtain and maintain nuclear technology is highly based on past behavour. Sort of like if you are a kid and have a habit of shooting a BB gun at your sister, it's likely there won't be 12 gage shotgun under the Xmas tree with your name on it.


Who has Iran invaded? Who has N Korea invaded? It appears to me that America's antipathy towards Iran and N. Korea has been for the same reason for its antipathy towards Cuba, they had a revolution or war that showed the US the door.

Since 1945 the US has a history of interference in other countries so has France and Britain etc but all have nukes. America is quite happy for Israel to have nukes and is negotiating with India over nuclear technology and who has had several border wars.

There is just so much hypocrisy surrounding who should have and who should not have nukes, it has little to do with who can be trusted and who can't but in whose interests it is that a country is allowed to have nukes.

Just try to look from a none western view. The west's hypocrisy is breath taking.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 8/26/2006 11:08:02 AM >

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