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RE: Trust, Trust, Trust, Trust. Trust ... - 9/1/2006 10:35:57 PM

Archer

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In my context it is about you predicting. You predict that people will follow through on thier promise, based on the moral pretext that people will do so. If they scew up after that you cannot predict if they will show up on time or not, regardless of what they promise you no longer have faith that they will follow through.

Lets say for instance you know that a specific person is a theif, they steal and they admit they steal and you know that given the chance they will steal from you as well. You can predict their behaviour so in a strage twisted way you can trust them to be exacty who you know them to be. If they steal from you you chalk it up to I knew they would.

Now take another person who you "believe to be honest" you predict that they will not steal from you if you leave your purse for them to watch, if they steal from you, you will be hurt disappointed and shocked because their behaviour did not fit your image of them.

In both cases you predicted a behaviour when the behaviour fit your prediction you are far less hurt than when the behaviour didn't fit your prediction.

(in reply to onestandingstill)

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Post #: 21

RE: Trust, Trust, Trust, Trust. Trust ... - 9/2/2006 12:33:55 AM

Emperor1956

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quote:

Archer: I'll pose this as something to think about.
What "trust" really is the ability to trust your ability to predict what someone will do.
That is the thing that causes the problem, we are used to them behaving in a specific manner and when that changes we are unable to predict and thus plan for our future encounters with them.

You trust that they will behave within certain moral (not religious) framework, and if they do not then it's work to try to predict their behaviour. We want to be lazy and have all those predictions be easy and accurate.

It is an interesting paradigm, Archer. But as applied, I don't know if it works.

If "trust" is based on predictible behavior, then the most trustworthy persons are those whose behavior you can predict most accurately. So...lets see...who can I trust (i.e. who will behave in a way I can most accurately predict?) People who are "lawful good" or "lawful evil" in orientation. People deeply living their lives by some external, verifiable code...from Aryan Nation members to Jim Jones' followers to gangbangers (if they follow the "code"). Religious people, especially fantatics, from Orthodox Jews to Mormons to Catholic clergy to ultra right Muslims. People suffering from OCD. People with organic brain damage that limits their responses to a blink or a groan. Good cops. Honest Louis Lamour cowboys (the Code of the West).

Who can't I trust? Who exhibits random, unpredictable behavior? Children. Alzheimer's patients. Poets. Dancers. Iconoclasts. John Cage.

I'm working it, but I'm not sure I buy it.

E.

_____________________________

"When you wake up, Pooh," said Piglet, "what's the first thing you say?"
"What's for breakfast? What do you say, Piglet?"
"I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?"
Pooh nodded thoughtfully.
"It's the same thing," he said.

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Post #: 22

RE: Trust, Trust, Trust, Trust. Trust ... - 9/2/2006 2:16:29 AM

MisPandora

Posts: 2911
Joined: 4/7/2004
From: Philadelphia, PA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreoleCook

While I realize I'm dominant, I wish to answer this, with a response of.... its not trust. It's integrity.

CC

You're ABSOLUTELTY right. I find I have more issues with someone's integrity, and that causes me to increase my index of suspicion and then not trust them....

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Pandora
Ms World Leather 2004
Ms Philadelphia Leather 2004

"Simply put, if you want a real femdom to love you, give her reasons to love you." Gloria Brame

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Post #: 23

RE: Trust, Trust, Trust, Trust. Trust ... - 9/2/2006 1:40:20 PM

Mavis

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Archer, Emperor, i see both sides, and betting You Both do as well.. we can pick apart the semantics but integrity is acting in an integrated way with ones beliefs, and trust-building in this light is basically just having faith that the results of actions will be consistant with expectations.. within a pattern.

Even the expected behavior of children and alzheimer patients is fairly predicatable. Children will behave like Children, with all the attendant fluctuations of maturity, etc. When we talk of trusting a Dominant to behwve as expected, we don't mean He got up at 4 am last week.. we mean even if He decides to get up at 11 this week, we "trust" the decision and different behavior is consistant with His overall plan, which we usually have a sense of. Why else do we accept actions or directives that at first blush seem different, unexpected, or crazy, unless we also belive those things are just different ways of achieving the exact same end?

Which to me is still a slightly different skew from honesty. Now, if i've been led to believe a certain goal is the main objective, then find out that wasn't the case, i have a trust problem, an honesty failout, and an integrity complaint.

Gawd, why can't people just be perfect???

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RE: Trust, Trust, Trust, Trust. Trust ... - 9/3/2006 2:02:43 AM

slave4Darby3d

Posts: 106
Joined: 12/27/2005
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what a great thread... and it is more than just trust.

For me, honesty and integrity build trust.

In my head I can see it almost mathematically. honesty + integrity = trust

Honesty over lies + white lies + omissions. anything that adds up on the bottom takes away from the top.

Integrity over lack of respect + infidelity + dishonor. Again, anything that adds up on the bottom takes away from the top.

anything taking away from honesty and integrity leaves less trust (it's not really an all or nothing, now is it?)

And the only thing I can figure that builds any of it is communication and deeds - but they only work together...

(ok, so I'm a geek...)

(in reply to Mavis)

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Post #: 25

RE: Trust, Trust, Trust, Trust. Trust ... - 9/3/2006 8:11:51 PM

Archer

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Joined: 3/11/2005
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Yes Emporer, Mavis, you both seem to be getting the idea behind the concept, I'm not sure I buy whole heartedly into the concept but it has some value as a way to examine a situation in addition to the way we already tend to do.

To examine situations when we think trust may have been bent or brokeen it can be helpfull to look at it though this context. Did the person act in a way consistant with what I know of them? If so then was it my mistake for believeing they would act counter to what I know is their tendancy, or Theirs for acting in a manner inconsistent with what I know of them.

Or was it a matter of my believing that they would act according to what I assumed was a shared belief structure, and them acting according to what they assumed I knew was their belief structure?

Trust in this construct is about building a record of behaviour, and the trust being the resulting ability to predict accurately the behaviour, because you have figured out over that time the belief structure that they actually live by.

Mavis, I use the same definition for integrity, the integration of spoken beliefs with lived actions.

(in reply to slave4Darby3d)

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Post #: 26

RE: Trust, Trust, Trust, Trust. Trust ... - 9/3/2006 9:44:56 PM

nefertari

Posts: 425
Joined: 7/22/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

In my context it is about you predicting. You predict that people will follow through on thier promise, based on the moral pretext that people will do so. If they scew up after that you cannot predict if they will show up on time or not, regardless of what they promise you no longer have faith that they will follow through.

Lets say for instance you know that a specific person is a theif, they steal and they admit they steal and you know that given the chance they will steal from you as well. You can predict their behaviour so in a strage twisted way you can trust them to be exacty who you know them to be. If they steal from you you chalk it up to I knew they would.

Now take another person who you "believe to be honest" you predict that they will not steal from you if you leave your purse for them to watch, if they steal from you, you will be hurt disappointed and shocked because their behaviour did not fit your image of them.

In both cases you predicted a behaviour when the behaviour fit your prediction you are far less hurt than when the behaviour didn't fit your prediction.

I think this is very true. There is comfort in knowing what to expect from another, whether it be the thief or the honest one. This all ties in with consistency and expectations.

(in reply to Archer)

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Post #: 27