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RE: too compliant? - 8/29/2006 9:51:31 PM   
Homestead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrDiscipline44

Ofcourse, Homestead, it's not like it's about what the Dom wants. Right?


Why be with a Dominant if you don't want to comply?

Don't we call the alternative Vanilla?

(in reply to MrDiscipline44)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: too compliant? - 8/29/2006 9:55:08 PM   
MrDiscipline44


Posts: 1776
Joined: 1/5/2005
Status: offline 		I was actually being sarcastic.

_____________________________

If you love somebody, you have to be willing to break them.

Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.

Have you slapped your slave today?

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Profile   Post #: 42
RE: too compliant? - 8/29/2006 9:56:06 PM   
Homestead


Posts: 1005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrDiscipline44

I was actually being sarcastic.


Me too.
Accept me as I am! then.........
Do me doo me dooo,meee do meee dooooomeeeeeeeeee

Um,sorry-no. Been there, done that-burned the t-shirt.

< Message edited by Homestead -- 8/29/2006 9:58:01 PM >

(in reply to MrDiscipline44)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: too compliant? - 8/29/2006 10:01:15 PM   
MrDiscipline44


Posts: 1776
Joined: 1/5/2005
Status: offline 		LOL Alrighty then. Though you did pose a good question. Why do "submissives" want to be with Dominants if they don't wish to comply?

_____________________________

If you love somebody, you have to be willing to break them.

Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.

Have you slapped your slave today?

(in reply to Homestead)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: too compliant? - 8/29/2006 10:03:21 PM   
Homestead


Posts: 1005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrDiscipline44

LOL Alrighty then. Though you did pose a good question. Why do "submissives" want to be with Dominants if they don't wish to comply?


Fantasy role playing?

(in reply to MrDiscipline44)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: too compliant? - 8/30/2006 12:21:49 AM   
amayos


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From: New England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

amayos, I respectfully suggest that your use of "doormat" does not fit the stereotypical use. It is a different thing to have one submit wholly and fully to you because her only desire and goal is to please you.....and one who submits because they are incapable of survival on their own accord.


Hello Erin,

Incapable of survival on one's own accord would make said person needy and dependant—and perhaps opportunistic or even parasitic. Those qualities can and do often exist without submissiveness in residence. Having said that, I don't necessarily see needy and dependant as something horrible. In fact, a slave should be needy and dependant...but again, this will fly in the face of popular wisdom on the subject, I'm sure.

Doormat, as I have always understood it, however, is a figurative use of the noun which implies one who allows others to completely dominate them, or to put it crudely, treat them like shit. My apologies in advance for the profanity, but in this definition we do in fact see a correlation between "complete submission" and "bad" in the BDSM community when this term is brought out. Following it often are judgment calls on what is abuse and mistreatment—which is ironic, considering the BDSM environment as a whole is viewed by many as an unhealthy culture of behavior.

As an aside, I have often seen this term thrown about by scornful submissive females when making a derogatory character assessment of another female and / or her master. There is nothing noble about the term, and not in regards as to who is labeled by it, but so often in regards as to who uses it to label others and why.



quote:

ORIGINAL: liljoy

i think i'll have to agree to disagree here / i am simply trying to understand Your views.



And it is well to agree to disagree. We all have our particular definitions of what terms like submission, trust, pride and doormat truly mean. Likewise, we all seek different things from our interrelations. Many are looking for what ultimately constitutes a lover who they can love and respect and honor and likewise be loved and honored and respected by. Others embrace a more literal and somewhat less romantic vision, which is equally rewarding, but in different ways. I of course have my own opinions as to what is more legitimate and why, but that is a matter best reserved for another thread, I suspect.




< Message edited by amayos -- 8/30/2006 12:33:32 AM >

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: too compliant? - 8/30/2006 1:02:07 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		I think when people hear the term "doormat" they think the person is a doormat to all around them.  Perhaps that has been the typical use of the word.  If I understand what Amayos is saying, it is that a girl who is bright and creative and vibrant is a wonderful thing, yet that same girl would lay before her Master and accept anything by him.

In my particular case, which is really all I have the knowledge to speak about, I am expected to reach my full potention - as a person, a student, a family member, and employee, and most certainly, as his slave.  You hear all this and say "Great!  Yes!  That is as it should be!"  But I am to my Master those things which Amayos has described, although my Master does not use the term doormat, he uses the term slave.  I suspect the word "doormat" as used in the OP was stated with the definition of weak and incapable of dealing with life.

Regardless, while Master enjoys training a slave and watching her blossom in her development, he most certainly does not become bored when she reaches the level of submission he has been wanting of her all along.  She has now become the ultimate performance vehicle, with which he can do whatever he likes.  As such, he enjoys her devotion greatly.  He enjoys her neediness of him.  The satisfaction he experiences from looking down at his slave, knowing she will endure anything for him, because of her deep submission, devotion and love for him, is not something he will ever tire of.  My Master is enjoying the fruits of his labor.

I would think if I bought a Maserati and it worked exactly as I wanted it to, 100% of the time, I would not ever wish for a Ford again because I was bored. 



(in reply to amayos)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: too compliant? - 8/30/2006 4:56:11 AM   
mistoferin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DiurnalVampire

I agree with angelic, actually.  He may not want you to change, persay, but rather want to train you.  which, if you are looking for a Dom, is what is alwayys going to happen.  No Dom is going to accept you for what you are and leave it at that, tey are al going to want you to learn, to pick up on things they want you to know and to invcoporate them into yuor personality.  This doesnt necessarily mean giving up who you are, it just means modifying it.
DV


Once again I have to disagree. ALL Doms don't do everything the same way. That is a blanket statement and like most other blanket statements it simply isn't true. Some Doms DO want you exactly as you are, with no intention of training you or retraining you. They like who you are and where you are on your path and enjoy watching the natural progression of your growth.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to DiurnalVampire)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: too compliant? - 8/30/2006 5:01:05 AM   
twicehappy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin


Once again I have to disagree. ALL Doms don't do everything the same way. That is a blanket statement and like most other blanket statements it simply isn't true. Some Doms DO want you exactly as you are, with no intention of training you or retraining you. They like who you are and where you are on your path and enjoy watching the natural progression of your growth.


I agree with you Erin, while we all need to learn the little things like how someone new likes their coffeee there are those doms/dommes who wait and collar what they like rather than attempt to remake what you are.

We both know at least two......

_____________________________

Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.

The human heart is not a finite container but an ever expanding universe with all the stars contained there in.

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: too compliant? - 8/30/2006 5:08:47 AM   
mistoferin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos
Doormat, as I have always understood it, however, is a figurative use of the noun which implies one who allows others to completely dominate them, or to put it crudely, treat them like shit.


Well, I guess that my definition is pretty close, with one exception...the people who I view as doormats don't "allow" others to treat them that way....they are incapable of making a concious choice as to what they "allow". They are not in submission to one...they are in submission to the entire world, not by choice, but because they do not have the ability to not be. They are not bright and creative people and they do not have the potential to ever rise above their current level.

I may be way off the mark Amayos, but I have always gotten the impression from reading your posts that you desire the exceptional. Yes, you wish for her to be utterly dedicated and devoted to you...but my impression has been that your interests are in "whole" people or those who at least have the potential to become whole. My view of doormats is that they are not and have no capacity to ever become whole.

< Message edited by mistoferin -- 8/30/2006 5:10:04 AM >

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to amayos)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: too compliant? - 8/30/2006 5:15:19 AM   
BeingChewsie


Posts: 1633
Joined: 10/27/2005
Status: offline 		Thank you, Amayos.

quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos

quote:

ORIGINAL: liljoy

ok i have to ask why You perfer a doormat? To me doormat implies someone that follows not out of strength but out of weakness and despiration. Does it mean something else to You?
lil_joy



What is wrong with admitting weakness, or allowing yourself to be weak in covenant with one you would call Master?

When giving all of oneself, what usually stands in the way is simple pride...an emotion difficult to vanquish, though its burden will only be fully realized once you succeed in doing so. The popular admonition that we must be our own person is a difficult thing to depart from, especially with everyone screaming in your ear since childhood that you must never allow yourself to be lowered before another.

I do prefer the one who can abandon that societal admonition and exist to serve. I do certainly prefer a "doormat," or whatever equally colorful and derogatory phrase any would like to use to describe one who surrenders utterly and without condition—for she (or he) displays the penitence and humility required of slavery. A doormat is not prideful or egocentric; she places her Master above all things, even above herself. That is the apex of servitude, and the greatest thing any human can give another: all of his or her being. I do not understand questioning the worth of such a thing, outside of considering the pageantry many have made of the term "worth" in BDSM mostly for social and political reasons.


quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Yes, that's a good question Amayos.
You prefer doormats? With no personality, no talking, no nothing?


Of course they can talk. They can be brilliant and quite learned, too. In fact, they will be what I want of them, or as much as their mortal flesh and mind will allow. There is no sin in such a quality, in my mind. It is ideal.

(in reply to amayos)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: too compliant? - 8/30/2006 5:55:17 AM   
marieToo


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From: Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Homestead

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrDiscipline44

Ofcourse, Homestead, it's not like it's about what the Dom wants. Right?


Why be with a Dominant if you don't want to comply?

Don't we call the alternative Vanilla?


Ya know.....I agree in the most basic form here. but its not always easy to just 'obey'.  we are still humans ya know...and humans have all kinds of problems.  Wouldnt it be great if all submissive people could just do whatever told, whenever told, without thought.  Ya know...If I was the dominant party, Id talk to my submissive about it, then help her overcome it.  sheesh guys!!! 


edited for a typo

< Message edited by marieToo -- 8/30/2006 6:08:34 AM >

(in reply to Homestead)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: too compliant? - 8/30/2006 6:00:49 AM   
addisonclarkgirl


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Joined: 7/16/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Homestead


In other words, if someone sees you as not up to speed with them, they should just drop back to yours?
i'm not saying that.  What i want is for someone to be perfectly happy with who i am right from the get go.  Someone that is comfortable with who i am and doesn't feel the need to change me. 

Yes, i want Him to help me become a better person, and to teach me how to serve Him, but i want Him to be able to say that He values who i am already. 

_____________________________

I saw the angel in the marble and carved until I set her free...Michelangelo


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Princess_of_Naughty_Pics

(in reply to Homestead)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: too compliant? - 8/30/2006 6:04:49 AM   
llkkto


Posts: 9
Joined: 2/6/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrDiscipline44

LOL Alrighty then. Though you did pose a good question. Why do "submissives" want to be with Dominants if they don't wish to comply?


We want to be placed on pedestals and be worshipped and pursued and given all sorts of special attention for being the wonderful innocent sweet-but-sexy angels that we are?

Seriously, there are a lot of good answers to this question. Sometimes you are dealing with someone who doesn't know herself or doesn't know what compliance means or possibly both.  It's best for both parties to avoid making a commitment when this is the case, as once the person does get to know herself and know what compliance really means, she may very well want nothing to do with it!

But even someone sincere and self-knowing and desiring at all times to comply finds it difficult at times. A directive will strike her as unfair or inconsiderate or unintelligent or wrong or not taking into account important factors of the situation (often those factors involve her feelings, but not always). I think smart dominants desiring master-slave reltaionships set things up so that it is Ok and emotionally safe   for the submissive to question and discuss an order (i.e. he doesn't get angry or reject her for doing so), but make the control dynamic crystal clear: that ultimately, whatever he decides is right to do after the discussion, goes, and she must comply, even if she still disagrees. It's amazing how cooperative many people become if they simply know that the one giving the orders has listened to them first, considered their point of view. In ordinary life, people who have "leadership" down pat, know this principle well. On the other hand, there ae some submissives who interpret such a discussion as meaning that things must alway go her way afterwards or the dominant didn't "listen" to her. Such submissives are back at that earlier condition, of not knowing what compliance is.

(in reply to MrDiscipline44)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: too compliant? - 8/30/2006 6:07:49 AM   
marieToo


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Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos

Doormat, as I have always understood it, however, is a figurative use of the noun which implies one who allows others to completely dominate them, or to put it crudely, treat them like shit.



I totally agree where somewhere in your post you said (in so many words) that everyone has different interpretations when figurative speech is used.  However,  I dont quite understand why you would appear to be using the terms "completely dominate" and "treat them like shit", synonymously.

I mean....whether you use  the term "toilet paper" or "bar of gold" to illustrate your partiular meaning of something, it still means whatever it means to you. Whats got me baffled is in plain english, which is much more clear than figurative speech, you just said that  "completely dominate" means the same as "treat like shit".  Unless I misunderstood.  I realize this is slightly off point.  But I'd still love to hear your response if you're so inclinced. 

< Message edited by marieToo -- 8/30/2006 6:09:48 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: too compliant? - 8/30/2006 8:04:41 AM   
Homestead


Posts: 1005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: llkkto

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrDiscipline44

LOL Alrighty then. Though you did pose a good question. Why do "submissives" want to be with Dominants if they don't wish to comply?


We want to be placed on pedestals and be worshipped and pursued and given all sorts of special attention for being the wonderful innocent sweet-but-sexy angels that we are?

Seriously, there are a lot of good answers to this question. Sometimes you are dealing with someone who doesn't know herself or doesn't know what compliance means or possibly both.  It's best for both parties to avoid making a commitment when this is the case, as once the person does get to know herself and know what compliance really means, she may very well want nothing to do with it!

But even someone sincere and self-knowing and desiring at all times to comply finds it difficult at times. A directive will strike her as unfair or inconsiderate or unintelligent or wrong or not taking into account important factors of the situation (often those factors involve her feelings, but not always). I think smart dominants desiring master-slave relationships set things up so that it is Ok and emotionally safe   for the submissive to question and discuss an order (i.e. he doesn't get angry or reject her for doing so), but make the control dynamic crystal clear: that ultimately, whatever he decides is right to do after the discussion, goes, and she must comply, even if she still disagrees. It's amazing how cooperative many people become if they simply know that the one giving the orders has listened to them first, considered their point of view. In ordinary life, people who have "leadership" down pat, know this principle well. On the other hand, there ae some submissives who interpret such a discussion as meaning that things must alway go her way afterwards or the dominant didn't "listen" to her. Such submissives are back at that earlier condition, of not knowing what compliance is.



Compliance comes from knowing what is being complied with,and often why. No one gets to an M/s situation without a pretty deep knowledge of what makes thier partners tick. We also tend to test each other's boundaries quite a bit in the beginning. A sub will see just how much she can get away with,and how her thoughts and feelings will be recieved. She knows that her ultimate safety lies in acceptance of her core.

Dominants need the same sort of acceptance. But thier interests in testing are often of a more objective nature-as in seeing what performance they can inspire. You aren't going to get far with anyone by something so shallow as trying to use structure to control. This is a common failing of many "fuax doms".

Rules and protocols are never a decent substitute for understanding and thought.  Nor is laziness a substitute for doing the work.

< Message edited by Homestead -- 8/30/2006 8:06:13 AM >

(in reply to llkkto)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: too compliant? - 8/30/2006 8:13:16 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		deleted due to double post



< Message edited by mistoferin -- 8/30/2006 8:16:49 AM >

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to Homestead)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: too compliant? - 8/30/2006 8:14:31 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Homestead

Compliance comes from knowing what is being complied with,and often why. No one gets to an M/s situation without a pretty deep knowledge of what makes thier partners tick. We also tend to test each other's boundaries quite a bit in the beginning. A sub will see just how much she can get away with,and how her thoughts and feelings will be recieved. She knows that her ultimate safety lies in acceptance of her core.


Sadly, this is not always true. I have noticed many times when a sub will be single one week and owned and "deeply" committed the next to someone she has met in the interim and know very little about what makes them tick. I also think that while there are those who will do the exercise in boundary testing...there are just as many who will prefer open communication as to what the boundaries are and abide by them.

< Message edited by mistoferin -- 8/30/2006 8:15:56 AM >

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: too compliant? - 8/30/2006 8:16:17 AM   
Homestead


Posts: 1005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos

Doormat, as I have always understood it, however, is a figurative use of the noun which implies one who allows others to completely dominate them, or to put it crudely, treat them like shit.



I totally agree where somewhere in your post you said (in so many words) that everyone has different interpretations when figurative speech is used.  However,  I dont quite understand why you would appear to be using the terms "completely dominate" and "treat them like shit", synonymously.

I mean....whether you use  the term "toilet paper" or "bar of gold" to illustrate your partiular meaning of something, it still means whatever it means to you. Whats got me baffled is in plain english, which is much more clear than figurative speech, you just said that  "completely dominate" means the same as "treat like shit".  Unless I misunderstood.  I realize this is slightly off point.  But I'd still love to hear your response if you're so inclinced. 


Another common fallacy is the thought that you can "completely" do something with anyone. I try to stay away from the absolutist mindset these days. An obsession with power is one of the surest ways not to have any.

(in reply to marieToo)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: too compliant? - 8/30/2006 8:20:55 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Homestead
Another common fallacy is the thought that you can "completely" do something with anyone. I try to stay away from the absolutist mindset these days. An obsession with power is one of the surest ways not to have any.

You believe one can not completely submit to another?

I thought Being Chewsie wonderfully answered how you can, in her post in the Autonomy thread.

< Message edited by ownedgirlie -- 8/30/2006 8:22:55 AM >

(in reply to Homestead)
Profile   Post #: 60
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