RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... (Full Version)

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CrappyDom -> RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... (9/1/2006 8:30:04 PM)

The primary cost expenses for poor people isn't consumer items, it is housing and transportation, two items that are not heavily affected by the minimum wage.

quote:

  That energy would be better spent on bettering oneself, having a good attitude at work, and getting promoted.  Because that's what happens to good people.  They move up.


"good people" don't move up, people who are willing to do anything to get one more sale, who are willing to cut safety to the bone, those who are willing to lie, cheat, and steal get ahead.  The people who get ahead are those willing to take the shortest term outlook and leave before the long term affects hit, get ahead.

That said, the minimum wage is a distraction and is a tiny part of the real puzzle.



gooddogbenji -> RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... (9/1/2006 9:08:05 PM)

And food?  Or do the poor not need to eat?

But okay, housing - the cheapest, worst housing out there will not go unlived in, because if everyone gets a raise at the same time, there will be a huge drive for nicer housing, raising the price of that, and not everyone will be able to move.  So some people will be signing leases at inflated prices, which will not go down after the mad rush, as the remaining people in very cheap housing look to move out. 

This mad rush into nicer neighbourhoods of the toiling masses will make these lower middle class neighbourhoods unfashionable, and the formerly destitute areas will be improved by an enterprising businessman and made into the new SoHo.  So everyone lives in nicer housing, but, relative to the classes below and above, nothing has changed.  So here we go, time to raise the minimum wage.

As to transport, you don't think the bus companies/transport commisions/whatever would jump at the chance to raise their prices?  As long as they can claim it has nothing to do with the recent raise change, but a lot to do with the price of gas, they're fine.  And if their rate hike is less (%) than the minimum wage hike, they can even use that argument.

In a capitalistic society, everyone will charge as much as they can afford to charge, without turning away consumers.  So why would prices of anything stay the same?

Yours,


benji



Termyn8or -> RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... (9/1/2006 10:39:43 PM)

How about a maximum wage for the executives ?

T



Archer -> RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... (9/1/2006 10:47:26 PM)

LOL  large percentage, what are you talking about according to the DOL statistics from 2004 when the job market was worse than it is today, there were about 1% of all employees making minimum or less. With 1/4 of those being kids between 16 and 19 years old, and a substancial number of the rest working a 2nd job at minimum and part time at that.

Where is this large percentage you mention meatclever? Cause the facts don't seem to support it.
http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2004.htm



meatcleaver -> RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... (9/1/2006 10:54:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gooddogbenji

First sign of a degenerated thread - demonization of the opposite side of the debate.

There is a basic principle I learned in management school - money doesn't motivate.  Change in money motivates short term, but no matter how much people make, it will not be enough.

People will always look up to others who have more and be envious.  That energy would be better spent on bettering oneself, having a good attitude at work, and getting promoted.  Because that's what happens to good people.  They move up.

Now, care to counter my last point about minimum wage raises affecting prices of goods?

Yours,

benji


If money doesn't motivate then why do people try to better themselves? Your train of thought doesn't add up. The sole purpose of work for most people is to earn a living. Didn't business school teach you a fair days pay for a fair day's work is a reasonable contract between employer and employee?



CrappyDom -> RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... (9/1/2006 10:56:39 PM)

Benji,

I am not arguing for or against a min wage hike, I was simply adding a few points to the discussion.  As for pricing of housing, even of apartments, again, the min wage is NOT what sets the price.  The price for rentals is usually tied to the cost of owning a house and is some percentage point below there.  It sits there because of the precious market fundamentals you love but don't seem to have taken that class yet or were asleep when they discussed them.

As for transportation cost, in most places with a transit system it isn't private, it is public and they are heavily subsidized and again are not driven by market rates.



knees2you -> RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... (9/2/2006 7:18:07 AM)

quote:

 And yes, it is time to raise the bottom rung on the ladder.

_____________________________

A Heretic as usual
Rich

 
quote:

Benji,
But you are forgetting a big bottom rung, the unreported or cash wages. Another reason why those in the lower ecconomic categories should be adamant against the illegal alien workforce. When you can hire someone to work for $2.50/hour cash why pay $5.25/hour to the employee and another 30% of that to the government in tax contributions? There are many undervalued jobs because of this ladder rung. The minimum wage is 2 or 3 steps up from the bottom.

Regarding raising it, it won't increase anyone's cash. The price will go up "just because" the same way gas in the tank of a gas stations goes up because of the latest middle east conflict. There will be more people unemployed because the budget for minimum wage businesses won't increase. In other words if there are 3 positions for a $5.25 wage budgeted and minimum wage goes to 10.50, there will only be 2 positions available, or there will be fewer hours available to make up the difference.

Raising minimum wage is a con. The people effected will be affected negatively. But it's a great political buzzword.



 
Ok so if minimum  wage was say $10 dollars then
it still wouldn't work?
 
quote:

"Let them all walk the plank!"

 
Ant &Lilbecque[sm=banana.gif]



WhipTheHip -> RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... (9/2/2006 9:45:07 AM)

Raising minimum wage won't help the poor and the disabled. 
The best answer is to raise taxes on the super-rich a lot, and
raise taxes on the upper-middle class a little, then give the
revenue generated directly to the poor and the disabled. 
This would do a lot to improve the economy.



gooddogbenji -> RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... (9/2/2006 9:53:02 AM)

Yup.  As the super-rich move to Bermuda and other tax havens, or simply hide their money legally.

Also, we might want to remember that the super-rich don't have mattresses stuffed with money, the re-invest it, giving other people jobs.  tax them to death, and they won't be able to give us jobs, which means that the government will have more money in the short term, but a few years down the road, they will have squeezed the last money out of the corpse of the economy.

There really is no ideal solution.

Yours,


benji



Level -> RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... (9/2/2006 9:59:52 AM)

A small business owner employs 3 workers. He pays them $5.00 an hour. He pays a total of $31,200 a year in salary for his 3 employees. Minimum wage is brought up to $8.00 an hour. Store owner is now paying $49,920 a year in total wages, increasing his outlay by $18,720. If the government gives him a tax break of $18,720, he will not be under an increased burden wage-wise, the 3 employees will see a nicer paycheck and better standard of living, they will put more money into the economy with increased spending and taxes..... why can't this be done?



Level -> RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... (9/2/2006 10:02:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gooddogbenji

Yup.  As the super-rich move to Bermuda and other tax havens, or simply hide their money legally.

Also, we might want to remember that the super-rich don't have mattresses stuffed with money, the re-invest it, giving other people jobs.  tax them to death, and they won't be able to give us jobs, which means that the government will have more money in the short term, but a few years down the road, they will have squeezed the last money out of the corpse of the economy.

There really is no ideal solution.

Yours,


benji


All good points, benji, but why did America's economy do so well when the upper tax-brackets were over 50%? This is something I'm honestly trying to figure out....



gooddogbenji -> RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... (9/2/2006 10:13:26 AM)

Honestly, I have no idea when that was, nor what the factors surrounding it was.

However, there are times when, no matter what the government does, the economy will grow, for example right now in China.  So maybe this was in one of those times, when other factors were playing together well enough for people to not care how much they were paying in taxes....?

Yours,


benji



meatcleaver -> RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... (9/2/2006 11:18:33 AM)

The Dutch minimum wage is about $9.50 per hour. The average Dutch person is as wealthy as the average American. The Dutch tax the rich a lot more than the US which means the top earners are a lot poorer than the top earners in the US and the Dutch poor are a lot wealthier than their American counterparts. According to you, capitalism shouldn't work here or at least be more inefficient but it has worked well for decades.



Estring -> RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... (9/2/2006 11:21:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Benji,
But you are forgetting a big bottom rung, the unreported or cash wages. Another reason why those in the lower ecconomic categories should be adamant against the illegal alien workforce. When you can hire someone to work for $2.50/hour cash why pay $5.25/hour to the employee and another 30% of that to the government in tax contributions? There are many undervalued jobs because of this ladder rung. The minimum wage is 2 or 3 steps up from the bottom.

Regarding raising it, it won't increase anyone's cash. The price will go up "just because" the same way gas in the tank of a gas stations goes up because of the latest middle east conflict. There will be more people unemployed because the budget for minimum wage businesses won't increase. In other words if there are 3 positions for a $5.25 wage budgeted and minimum wage goes to 10.50, there will only be 2 positions available, or there will be fewer hours available to make up the difference.

Raising minimum wage is a con. The people effected will be affected negatively. But it's a great political buzzword.


Raising minimum wage is another feel good attempt that The Left is so good at doing, that actually hurts the people it was intended to help. It doesn't work. Almost every economist around will tell you that. Minimum wage was never intended to be a living wage. It wasn't intended for a family of 4 to live off of. It was intended as a starting point in entering the workplace. The fact is, that many people are making poor life choices such as having kids when they can't afford them. That is what should be adressed, not doing something counterproductive like raising minimum wage.



meatcleaver -> RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... (9/2/2006 11:40:47 AM)

Despite the bullshit that rightwing politicians and rightwing economists say about the minimum wage being an entry level into the work place, it is quite obvious millions of people are required by the economy to be on low wages, without them, society won't function. Therefore it is encumbant on a decent society to look after the poorest.

Britain also has a minimum wage of approx $9.50 per hour and according to Blair, the economy is doing alright. Actually, anything lower than the minimum wage makes work pointless.



Estring -> RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... (9/2/2006 12:11:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Despite the bullshit that rightwing politicians and rightwing economists say about the minimum wage being an entry level into the work place, it is quite obvious millions of people are required by the economy to be on low wages, without them, society won't function. Therefore it is encumbant on a decent society to look after the poorest.

Britain also has a minimum wage of approx $9.50 per hour and according to Blair, the economy is doing alright. Actually, anything lower than the minimum wage makes work pointless.


How about this? If you are making minimum wage, don't have kids? If you want to make more money, do whatever it takes to get there, go back to school, change jobs, work harder, get a promotion, etc. Isn't that your responsibility? How is that the government's responsibility? Yes, there are certain jobs that pretty much just pay minimum wage and will probably always pay just that. Those are the jobs that I worked at as a teenager. I never expected to raise a family on those wages, and certainly wasn't planning on still being at that job as I got older.



meatcleaver -> RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... (9/2/2006 12:17:24 PM)

The theory is great, the reality is somewhat different, rather like the American Dream and some people still buy that.



Level -> RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... (9/2/2006 12:29:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

The Dutch minimum wage is about $9.50 per hour. The average Dutch person is as wealthy as the average American. The Dutch tax the rich a lot more than the US which means the top earners are a lot poorer than the top earners in the US and the Dutch poor are a lot wealthier than their American counterparts. According to you, capitalism shouldn't work here or at least be more inefficient but it has worked well for decades.


Interesting points, Meatcleaver. Sweden seems to be doing fairly well economically, as well, and they have an excellent standard of living.



Level -> RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... (9/2/2006 12:35:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

Raising minimum wage is another feel good attempt that The Left is so good at doing, that actually hurts the people it was intended to help. It doesn't work. Almost every economist around will tell you that. Minimum wage was never intended to be a living wage. It wasn't intended for a family of 4 to live off of. It was intended as a starting point in entering the workplace. The fact is, that many people are making poor life choices such as having kids when they can't afford them. That is what should be adressed, not doing something counterproductive like raising minimum wage.


More good points. Many accuse the Right of trying to cram morality down people's throats, when all many want to do is get some people to stop (or never do) some foolish things.



babygirl005 -> RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... (9/2/2006 12:40:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

The theory is great, the reality is somewhat different, rather like the American Dream and some people still buy that.


Actually, the reality for many here is pretty good. If you are happy with a "Nanny State" then I could see why the US would seem so threatening. Nothing more secure than "cradle to grave" government. But I kind of like being responsible for myself.
Estring



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