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The IRS - 9/1/2006 6:54:40 PM   
Termyn8or


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Well, bignipples2share asked, so here it is, part of it anyway. It is Friday night and I can't spend alot of time on it right now. But in essence screwing with the IRS in any way is very very dangerous.

First of all the essence of the understanding is important. You can't learn it in a day or a week.

Number one, any form of 1040 is not a return, it is not a reciept. It has a very interesting legal classification. It lies somewhere between a contract and an affidavit. State and local tax "returns" are very similar. It is somewhat like a driver's license application, these are all a form of contract, but it makes you the individual abide by all their rules, and even changes after the fact. Such a contract would be held unenforcable if between private parties or basically anyone other than the government.

But wait, the IRS is not part of the government. If they were they would not be incorporated in Deleware. Now this is not ammunition for use in the goal, it is just something that is good to know. I know they have a letterhead that says things about the treasury etc., but anyone with Harvard Graphics and the symbol pack can make such a document. Yes, real government symbols with which you can make very official looking documents. I used to have it. I wrote my neighbor a letter on EPA letterhead stating that he was ordered to remove his house and garage from the property because it had been declared a federal wetland. I wasn't pissed, I just wanted to fuck with him, strictly a joke. I never sent it, and don't know if I would, and it's out of my hands now because the letter and program were both lost in  a crash. Thank you Western Digital.

Now comes another perspective. This is not a waste of time because you have to understand the roots of what goes on to think on your feet, and attain, and more importantly CHOOSE your goals correctly. There are many people who, in their current state of affairs must remain a taxpayer. So becoming a non-taxpayer will be addressed much later.

Let's review the status of the IRS. They are an auditing company, basically like a CPA, not much more. Yes they are more, but they are still not part of the government anymore than is the FDIC or FSLIC. Actually the federal reserve is not even part of the government. That is not at issue now, but what is is the reason the IRS can bring weapons to bear on you for refusing to pay taxes. This is the crux of the matter.

For example, say a security guard cartches a shoplifter. They then detain the person and call the police. But see, they have commited kidnapping. It is also illegal to hold anyone against their will, but a private entity can do it as an extension of the Law.

If you do it, you better have evidence that you had the right to violate the person's rights. Actually the government is supposed to be held to this standard, but is not. Not anymore.

The extension of Law is what the IRS claims, but does not have.

As a private party, if someone breaks into your house in the middle of the night and you wind up calling the police while holding him at gunpoint, this is not considered a crome. Actually it is not a crime, but we are not talking about what is or is not a crime, we are talking about what they say is a crime.

Always remember that they are not human. Yes they are human beings, but they do not operate in their human capacity. They are acting in their official capacity. They could be the best neighbor and friend, but at work the do what they are told. Do not EVER get angry or raise your voice to them. Any of them. Knowledge is power, you use knowledge with intellect, not emotions.

Always remember that everythig you say to them is scrutinised for anything they can use against you. Personal admissions are poison. You neve admit to being certain things. If you can, if you have to go to court, try not to represent yourself Pro Se, try to get the status of self-represented.

But for now, when I come back I'll deal with the issues of penalties and interest. Like I said, if you do not have their money, do not file. A full 80% of the people who win their case against the IRS did not file.

We'll start to deal with the tactics you must use when I get back. The whole enchilada will come later.

T

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RE: The IRS - 9/1/2006 6:56:55 PM   
CrappyDom


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Just in case you are lost, this is the THIRD planet from the sun...

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RE: The IRS - 9/1/2006 7:03:15 PM   
gooddogbenji


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Well said, Crappy!  I have no idea what he was going on about, but for some reason, I kept reading........

Yours,


benji

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RE: The IRS - 9/1/2006 9:01:38 PM   
Chaingang


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Termyn8or:

Keep going. I'm reading it. Let's see where you go with it...

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RE: The IRS - 9/1/2006 9:26:08 PM   
subfever


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Like I said, if you do not have their money, do not file. 


Who is "their?"

Do you mean that if we don't have enough cash-on-hand to file, and accompany our filing with a check for full payment, that we shouldn't file at all?

By the way, did you follow the Larken Rose case?

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RE: The IRS - 9/1/2006 9:32:00 PM   
Termyn8or


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quick>

subfever, the money to pay your tax bill on time.

I'll be back with part two soon, nips and Chain.

T

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RE: The IRS - 9/1/2006 9:47:51 PM   
Lordandmaster


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Here's a good website with relevant information:

http://evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html

The IRS is a bureau of the Department of the Treasury.  It is a government office.

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RE: The IRS - 9/1/2006 10:08:19 PM   
MistressLorelei


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I don't recommend not filing taxes.... you will most likely end up paying them back eventually, and with interest.  The reason 80% (if that's a correct figure)  of the people who have won cases with the IRS are people who never filed, is because most of the cases filed with the IRS are by people who don't file, and who don't pay their taxes.  It's still a losing deal... you don't have an 80% chance of winning.... or an 80& chance of not paying taxes, or not paying taxes with penalties.  Your chances are higher of having to pay.

The main IRS location is in Washington, D/C.... it's being refurbished and will be re-open next year.  The IRS is a US government agency and is a bureau of  the US Treasury.  The commissioner of the IRS is confirmed by the senate, unlike the security guard in your OP.  The IRS has been granted the power to collect tax in the way in which we know it.   If you mess around you can end up a Federal prison.... tell some of the inmates there, that the IRS has no authority, and I bet those inmates wish they had paid their taxes. 

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RE: The IRS - 9/1/2006 10:22:43 PM   
Termyn8or


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Crappy, I thought I demonstrated quite a knowledge of my geographical location.

Now, part two.

Let's assume you need to remain a taxpayer. There are many situations like this. First and foremost you have to be aware of every time you sign your name. Remember that a W-4 form is a fucked up contract just like a 1040. Once you signed that, you got into thir jurisdiction.

So to be tax free you had better be self employed. At smaller companies you could just submit a bill for your time. Keep records, but keep them private. Do not accept a 1099, tell them to mail it, then return it to sender. This is only illegal if you sign the W-4 or 1040.

Now back to the immediate subject, getting rid of penalties and interest. This is not going to happen without a pesonal appearance. Bring a check made out for the full amount, that is good. Certified would be better. Bring some cash, settle on the spot if you get this deal.

Becoming a non-taxpayer is a good goal, but you can't think about it when they are fucking with you. If you signed any tax forms in those years you are stuck for it.

This is a whole different world.

Next we'll deal with becoming a non-taxpayer. There are steps, and you must live a certain way, you can't work for any government agency of any kind, your paycheck shouldn't be direct deposit. There are many other things. Many employers will not comply, you might HAVE to work for yourself.

There are many other aspects to this than you can see, at least until you know how the process works. Every day henceforth you must be VERY careful what you sign, bank agreements as well as cellphone contracts. You can't "just do it" anymore, ever. You get one chance out, and if you ever get back in you can't use it agaain.

Why and how does it work ? I got two words :

PUBLIC RECORDS

I have the summary of a case I'll cite later. She must've had a really good law cousellor, made around $300,000 and walked without paying a dime. The prosecutor asked the judge to order the defendant to pay the taxes and the judge said something like " I don't work for the IRS " I'll get the name, but it was on paper so I have to go find it.

This was, BTW, one who did not file.

It is really best if you change to a new business or endeavour and just never file. Ever. If they come you deal with it, actually have beeen preparing to deal with it until they catch up to you. You CAN beat them in court, but it's not easy. Guess what, money doesn't do it.

There are three or four basic tactics to use in court. First of all you can't hve any other cases pending unless you really know what you're doing.

The main categories:

Challenging jurisdiction overall

Challenging jurisdiction over you specifically

Filing writs and affidavits rather than giving oral testimony which can be stricken

Getting the case marked "Not to be published nor cited"

Waiting them out with much of your property temporarily siezed

When they do the "waitout", if you make it 270 days they will probably never bother you again.

I'll be baaaack.

T

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RE: The IRS - 9/1/2006 10:28:19 PM   
Termyn8or


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Anybody who believes the bullshit and doesn't want to hear about it is invited to go away.

You can get CERTIFIED copies of the IRS's incorporation papers from the state of Deleware.

Why do those papers exist ?

Think about it.

T

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RE: The IRS - 9/1/2006 10:34:44 PM   
subfever


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Anybody who believes the bullshit and doesn't want to hear about it is invited to go away.

You can get CERTIFIED copies of the IRS's incorporation papers from the state of Deleware.

Why do those papers exist ?

Think about it.

T


Do you have a copy?

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RE: The IRS - 9/1/2006 10:40:43 PM   
Termyn8or


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Yes.

T

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RE: The IRS - 9/1/2006 10:47:41 PM   
CrappyDom


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quote:

I know they have a letterhead that says things about the treasury etc., but anyone with Harvard Graphics and the symbol pack can make such a document.


Yep, you are right, the IRS is a great big scam and they have so fooled everyone that Congress even gives them a budget!  Now that is a great scam, wait till Congress finds out the IRS isn't really part of the government, they are going to be pissed.

If you are rich, there are lots of ways of getting out of paying taxes, if you earn wages, you are fucked.  If you want to learn some actual facts about the tax system, try reading "Perfectly Legal" by David Kay Johnson, he won a pulitzer for the writing on tax issues for the NYT.  Very readable book, will really piss you off no matter what political orientation you are.

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RE: The IRS - 9/1/2006 10:53:29 PM   
Archer


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You know every so often another financial anti tax guru will oput forth a sceme that says the IRS can't tax you, and every so often the loudest of them end up in federal prison.


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RE: The IRS - 9/1/2006 10:54:30 PM   
subfever


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Yes.

T


If I privately send you my fax number, will you send me a copy?

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RE: The IRS - 9/1/2006 10:57:52 PM   
subfever


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

You know every so often another financial anti tax guru will oput forth a sceme that says the IRS can't tax you, and every so often the loudest of them end up in federal prison.


So does that make the "anti-tax gurus" wrong, or just unable to battle an 800lb. gorilla?

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RE: The IRS - 9/1/2006 11:00:30 PM   
Archer


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Well as of yet none of them has had a appeal go their way based on constitutionality of the IRS and they have tried.

And I'd rather not sit in a federal jail waiting for the court to see an error they are not likely to see.

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RE: The IRS - 9/2/2006 3:56:12 AM   
pahunkboy


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From: Central Pennsylvania
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At my perky age - i have some advice for all.

choose your battles carefully.

in one pen stroke the IRS can freaze your assets.

such protesting putting you in the "lets upset these people file"

BTW- the IRS is not respsible if they give you wrong information over the phone.

if you have any type of REAL cash flow- grab an accountant. i do not mean H-R block. i mean a professional.

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RE: The IRS - 9/2/2006 5:00:20 AM   
IronBear


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The IRS and the ATO are the biggest and most hypocritical pack of bastards who ever walked the earth they both need exterminating.....

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Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

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RE: The IRS - 9/2/2006 8:05:58 AM   
subfever


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quote:

Well as of yet none of them has had a appeal go their way based on constitutionality of the IRS and they have tried.


Until now, I didn't realize that we were discussing "the constitutionality of the IRS." I was more on the page of whether there's truly a law which states that citizens of the USA can be taxed on income earned within the borders of the USA.

quote:

And I'd rather not sit in a federal jail waiting for the court to see an error they are not likely to see.


I agree with you, except I would replace both of your "see" words with the word "acknowledge."

(in reply to Archer)
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