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RE: Letting go...online - 9/2/2006 11:15:38 AM   
Bearlee


Posts: 2311
Joined: 10/25/2004
From: South Central CO
Status: offline 		<giggles wildly>  ...need a spanking, huh?  LOL
 
 
I'll wait with baited breath...................... Sir.

(in reply to mstrjx)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Letting go...online - 9/2/2006 11:20:54 AM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

Having said this...all my conversations are with this in mind, upfront.  I'm just curious HOW this happens...    AND, believe this conversation might be good for some persons who get impatient with 'online'.  Ya know?  Aren't we (forum posters) teachers, too?)

I think everyones a teacher.  My current partner I met online.  It just happened that we clicked.  Neither of us were 'looking' for anything other than to network and to get to know people.
One of my good friends I met online, and now he knows more about me than most who have known me for years... and I consider him one of my best friends.  Its about knowing yourself and trusting yourself.
If you can't do that - then you can't trust anyone else.
 
Peace and Rapture


< Message edited by darkinshadows -- 9/2/2006 11:21:21 AM >

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to Bearlee)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Letting go...online - 9/2/2006 11:40:35 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Bearlee,

When I was talking to different dominants I sometimes did talk about my sexuality in a sensual way. It was never with the intent to provide masturbatory material per se, but I have this exhibitionist side, and I would only show it if I felt comfortable.... you should only do what you feel comfortable doing, and if you do not, then I would suggest you do not do it. I never talked in a way as to implicitly excite anyone thoug.

With Sinergy, he is not into phone sex or cyber, although our discussionss were titillating. I even cammed in a very sexual way with him once before we met, very shortly before we met, and it just kinda happened. We talked for a couple of months before we actually met, and those conversations became longer and more frequent as the weeks went by, always with the intention of meeting... our initial emails and phone calls were not very sexual at all, and centered on the personal aspects and intellectual discourse. He made it very apparent his interest was in me as a complete person, not a list of fetishes.

I think that anyone who would expect you to trust them without establishing a real life relationship is a little much. I would respond that "People should be and do a lot of things, but you cannot force someone to trust you, and if you do not want to earn my trust I am thinking that maybe we are not right for each other". Sinergy never expected that I should trust him blindly... and it is only now that he is voicing that he had earned my trust over time, and he has. He deserves and has merited it... someone with integrity and good intentions is willing to earn your trust and submission.. they will also not push you past what you are comfortable with.

Just my thoughts, and I could be wrong

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Bearlee)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Letting go...online - 9/2/2006 11:46:42 AM   
zumala


Posts: 1121
Joined: 6/16/2005
Status: offline 		I've only read part of the way through the thread, but I just felt like I should say some things now before I forget them.  Sometimes that happens.
 
Bearlee, all I can do is share my own thoughts and experiences.  I don't know this guy that you've been talking to, so I couldn't say anything about him fairly.  I will say that I've had strictly on-line relationships, on-line relationships were we visited every six months, and an on-line relationship that evolved into two weekend visits per month until it jumped mostly to real time and then to marriage.  Yes, that last one was pup.
 
I learned some very difficult and painful lessons from my first two on-line relationships.  I learned that it may take you YEARS to see the real person that you're talking to.  If you aren't around them real life, a person can tell you ANYTHING they want to, and you have to accept that they are being honest by faith.  If you visit twice a year, that isn't often enough to learn things about them that may be of vital importance to you.
 
You've said that this guy you are speaking with lives close enough to visit fairly often, yes?  You've been speaking for less than a month?  I'm thinking that unless you know him VERY well and the two of you are seriously persuing a sexual and/or exclusive relationship, you probably don't need to be discussing anyone's fantasies.  And if you can meet him real life, I would be more likely to speak openly in that situation than on-line.  At least he can't unzip his pants and wank in front of you if that's what he's wanting to do with the info.
 
I've learned to take relationships very sloooow and in depth before I make any commitments.  When pup met me, I'd decided on a three year dating rule for myself because of the previous disasters.  For me, three years was always long enough for any dirty, harmful secrets or personality traits to show themselves.  But that's just me.  My commitments are extremely long-term, so it was only smart to be cautious.  I'm married now and divorce is a word that both pup and I agreed will never be spoken between us.  We've made a lifetime commitment to each other.
 
I'm rambling, I'm afraid.  So I'll stop here.  I hope that at least some of what I've said is of use to you, Bearlee.
 
zuma

< Message edited by zumala -- 9/2/2006 11:54:38 AM >

(in reply to Bearlee)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Letting go...online - 9/2/2006 12:07:17 PM   
Bearlee


Posts: 2311
Joined: 10/25/2004
From: South Central CO
Status: offline 		Okay…perhaps I should reiterate; I see online as online ONLY.  I do not consider relationships where the participants have actually met and spent time together, as online, if (between engagements), they communicate online.  For me…that’s a WHOLE ‘nother story.
 
And truly, I was not speaking about a single person, but rather all online ‘meetings’.’
 
Thanks, zumala
bearlee

(in reply to zumala)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Letting go...online - 9/2/2006 12:24:49 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		I'm an old fashioned kind of guy.
I had one of those wireless phones once and I was driving down a mountain road in N.H. once about 60mph and trying to dial the phone at the same time and damn near ran off the road!
I looked at the phone and said; These fuckers are dangerous!"
I threw it right out the window into the woods!
Haven't had one since.
As for "cyber" I really don't care for that. It does nothing for me.
I have a hard time understanding how two people can have a "relationship" on the internet without ever having met!
I mean what do you do say, "Let's go to this cyber restaurant and eat" or something like that?
("You cheap prick, you didn't leave the cyber waitress a tip!")

(in reply to Bearlee)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Letting go...online - 9/2/2006 12:47:49 PM   
mystiquenz


Posts: 330
Joined: 8/13/2004
Status: offline
quote:

 I’m having a hard time figuring out if I’m having a difficult time letting go or not.  It seems to me it is the medium I do not trust…not the person; and I say it from time to time; to keep things REAL.  HOW is it I’m the one with the problem? DO I have a hard time letting go?  I wonder…

 
Greetings bearlee,
 
I believe it can be very challenging to trust online.  Do you find that you are giving too much too soon bearlee? 
 
I do believe there are some online, who consider themselves as being "real" but when it comes to the crunch, they play a game, and the game is "how long is a piece of string" ...  I don't like that game, and have in the past, followed that piece of string, until I have been extremely unhappy.  Maybe the person was not "totally" honest.  This can happen online and offline.  It's human nature.  Different experiences, erode one's trust, and you move into a new relationship, recollections from the past can affect you. But to counterbalance that statement, you can have other relationships that are positive, that have been a positive experience and have given you strength to draw from in the process. 
 
I think you have to keep yourself mindful that each person that you speak with, every time a relationship forms where the "internet is the gateway"  that you will need to be remind yourself that "this is a new person, and is not a carbon copy of some other that you have had a conversation or a set of conversations with". 
 
I wish you well bearlee, as you journey.  Hopefully he will make the commitment to meet you, but maybe he has stepped back as well, because maybe he feels that things have moved too quickly.  Remember we have to follow and a wise Dominant will take the time to get to know you well.  
 
 
 

_____________________________

blessings
~mystique~

(in reply to Bearlee)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Letting go...online - 9/2/2006 12:52:09 PM   
SirKenin


Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bearlee

<smiles>   As usual SirKenin, you are delightfully blunt.  I like that!
 
And yes, while I DO have (overly?) strong desires to find someone…I’ve been around the block a time or two and like my life just as it is.  Sharing a D/s or M/s relationship would be breathtaking; sharing it with just anybody would not be.
 
I do not only search online.  I am open to life as I live my own.  I’m still curious, though, as to how folks, in real-time D/s or M/s relationships began their relationships; especially if they DID meet…online? 
 
Did you have a hard time letting go ...and trusting?
 
bear


You owe it to yourself to be picky, I think.  I have met women on line, and I did not give them the chance to burn Me.  I purposely withheld anything that I thought could be used against Me.  I had fun with them.  I asked them if they wanted sex.  I asked if I could grab their boobs. . lol.  Just the usual goofy stuff.  I had a great time with them because in a "face to face" meeting I am actually quite the character.    Of course I also had serious conversations about likes, dislikes, you know, the usual, but never did I reveal personal information about Me.  I have to be dating a woman for some time before I feel comfortable enough to do that.

Only a trusting fool would reveal everything right off the bat.  That is exactly how you get burned.

And yeah, I am blunt.  lol.

_____________________________

Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

(in reply to Bearlee)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Letting go...online - 9/2/2006 1:07:46 PM   
krikket


Posts: 1183
Joined: 11/17/2004
From: Washington, DC Metro Area
Status: offline 		i've had a few relationships that started on line and then moved on to hand to hand (heart to heart in one).  The biggest issue is that each partner must absolutely trust the person they're talking to.  It's not even a matter of questioning what someone had said/done, but can even go further -- to looking for that screw up, looking for fault, which is what happened that one time, years ago.  To be honest there are some subjects i can talk about better (more clearly) on line or thru email than face to face.  i usually don't have a problem discussing generic things either on line or in person, or even saying..sorry that's too far for me, or sorry, this isn't going to work.  No matter, the good, the bad, the ugly and with or without computers, honestly and trust must, for me, be given freely, without reservation and without expectations, for no other reason than it's just the right thing to do. 

Huggles
jimini

_____________________________

"And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to bloom."

by A. Nin



When your heart speaks take good notes.





(in reply to SirKenin)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Letting go...online - 9/2/2006 1:31:30 PM   
zumala


Posts: 1121
Joined: 6/16/2005
Status: offline 		For a strictly on-line relationship?  No.  I trusted easily and completely online when I was 19, much to my detriment.  I was so emotionally involved with a fruitcake that I nearly commited suicide.  I do not trust anyone I've not got a real life relationship with fully.  ESPECIALLY not if it's supposed to be an 'intimate' type of relationship.  Uh-uh, no way, ain't never happenin' again.  I learned my lesson.  I can have friends on-line, but there are some personal things that will stay personal.
 
zuma

(in reply to krikket)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Letting go...online - 9/2/2006 1:43:18 PM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bearlee

“Letting Go….online”
 
Okay, I do not want to hijack twice’s thread with this…but it IS a similar dilemma:
 
I am contacted by a Dominant…we begin exchanging e-mails.  In a week we have shared several dozen and, I believe, are getting to know each other quite nicely.

He has said he can relocate after visits, or he has said he is a pilot and can come visit easily, or he IS fairly close; we can have a R/T relationship.  Regardless…I always make sure this is about real-time and not on-line….or cyber.
 
In several many cases of late, said Dom eventually begins to ask questions of ‘experiences’.  I pretty much see this as masturbatory fodder.  I will discuss anything…and do; but not, generally, in some sort of sensual way…but rather as discussion.  After all, HOW do people get to know each other?  Still, the reason I suggest it is masturbatory fodder is because some get pissy that I don’t trust their motives.
 
I’ve had them suggest I don’t trust them; that because I’ve discussed my on-line experiences with ‘wannabes’ that I am suggesting THEY are the same; that they cannot get to know me if I doubt their every word; that they are tired of my suggesting they are fake with comments like ‘…if you are the one’ or ‘if what you say’. 
 
Mind you…I am NOT stupid and I AM submissive.  I do not say such things.  I HAVE said things like… “I can’t wait to meet you to see if we ‘click’” and “…I hope things turn out as they seem for us" and the like.  I have never suggested one is lying.
 
The last guy added “At one time I had a vanilla person in my live as a friend that believe NOTNING anyone say as true. Everone was out to explote her... that a 'hell" friendship because you can't do anything say anything that is nott suspect  I will say she was manic depressive and under medication for it.   …I sorry you see me a fake   what a waste”
 
Sigh…I have NEVER said he (or anyone else who’s written IS a fake). 
 
I just wanna get to know each other BEFORE I submit, before I go into explicit sexual details, before I suggest I am his.  What ever happened to letter-writing?  Dang… It’s been a WEEK…
 
Do any of you folks, who’ve met your partners online, find that it is difficult to ‘let go’ of trust issues that ensue from online activities?  Surely real people are interested in real people…and want, actively, to get to KNOW a person?  NO?
 
Trolls not withstanding… I’m having a hard time figuring out if I’m having a difficult time letting go or not.  It seems to me it is the medium I do not trust…not the person; and I say it from time to time; to keep things REAL.  HOW is it I’m the one with the problem? DO I have a hard time letting go?  I wonder…
 
I'd appreciate your sincere comments.  I'm NOT discussing the one-liners we all get from time to time...I'm discussing a week's worth, or more, of correspondence here.  Thanks...
 
bearlee


Hello Bearlee,

Just a few thoughts I had when I read your post. Firstly I don't really think you *get to know each other* through email ......I think you get to know *about each other*.

Secondly, a week is a very, very short time, even if you've exchanged a hundred emails. What you are comfortable sharing with another will vary hugely from person to person.

If you don't feel comfortable doing so, then it isn't the time to be doing it. That's really all it amounts to.

If it's *suggested* that you don't trust them, I think I'd be perfectly frank and say * No, I don't*. Any chap worth his salt would be rather pleased that you don't trust on the strength of a few emails.

Regards, agirl

(in reply to Bearlee)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Letting go...online - 9/2/2006 2:11:03 PM   
Bearlee


Posts: 2311
Joined: 10/25/2004
From: South Central CO
Status: offline 		Uhhhhh… with regard to the kind of topics I have discussed, here are some examples from my own posts:


“Yes, I have had sex with several women…since I was about thirty till more recently.  It’s not something I think about much, or pursue.  While I’ve had the occasional crush on a particular woman…including sexually…by and large, I’m heterosexual and want a man as my partner, not a female.  As I’ve told you, the idea of Polyamory appeals to me and has for years and years.  I don’t know how it would unfold with me and my partner, but I rather like the idea and have been in open relationships before.  [this in response to his note just before “beautiful oversexed lesbian slave living with us. lol every  Dom in north American would be jealous of me.”]  


I went on…:


"I can ask questions?  You tell me this is the ‘big league’ and that you are seriously considering me.  How do you see this going forward?  I have no interest in being an online slave.  I don’t mind a short online correspondence, but if in fact we are serious, I would like to go forward to see if we actually have anything here or not.”


Or…the same day:


“You just hung up and…OMG…I have the biggest grin on my face!  Oh my…I love how you sound…I like that you laugh a lot…I like that you seemed delighted by me; I was most certainly delighted by you!

Please don’t get impatient with me; consider that we have been chatting about a week…that this is all pixels in the wind.  Remember the saying “Don’t shoot till ya see the whites of their eyes”?  Well, I sort of think it’s hard to ‘believe’ before ya see the whites of their eyes.” 


Or…(most recently): 


“Your profile says you are ‘expert’ in watersports.  No?  My experience with that activity goes back some thirty years or more and includes just peeing on each other’s feet while in the shower to being peed inside of while having sex to providing go-cups for a boy who desired it for his ride home.  Personally, I cannot swallow…sorry.

It’s a messy business; generally done in the privacy of one’s own home because of the whole ‘fluid’ thing.

No, I do not have erotic pictures of myself.”


Still…I have had several many conversations with folks who do not demand salacious stories and are most interested in making a comments TO me or FOR me or ABOUT me or WITH me.  I like that part. 

Thank you mystique.

bearlee

(in reply to mystiquenz)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Letting go...online - 9/2/2006 2:12:55 PM   
MissTlTTYMilk


Posts: 142
Joined: 6/17/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bearlee
My question is about whether or not those of us interested in R/T relationships trust ‘online’ or not...
 ...Again…am I being ridiculous and having a hard time ‘letting go’ or…am I just being realistic?  HOW do people let go and begin relationships (soon to be R/T) ...online?
 
bearlee

Maybe you dont let go because you are being realistic...

For me, trust develops with time and after actually meeting someone and with still more time.......Online can be used as a tool to find out if i actually want to meet that person, but not a tool for whether or not i trust someone. Some serial killers may seem trustworthy to their prey. i speak for myself and no one else.  i can see all the time just in this forum......for many folks,  thoughts are so "highly edited" when written.  There are people who are very good at communicating what they think you want to hear or  presenting what they think they want to be.  There is something to be said for a look in someone eyes, (nonedited) initial reaction, or behaviorial cues that can provide one far more information regarding trust than found in any email. i may have in the past used "online" correspondence as a tool to decide whether to first phone, then meet someone. Only after meeting and time do i trust...not vice versa.  i hope this made sense.

corrected for grammatical reasons. Crap! i appear "highly edited"  

< Message edited by MissTlTTYMilk -- 9/2/2006 2:21:22 PM >

_____________________________

"I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong. "
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts. "
--Bertrand Russell

(in reply to Bearlee)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Letting go...online - 9/2/2006 2:15:42 PM   
Bearlee


Posts: 2311
Joined: 10/25/2004
From: South Central CO
Status: offline 		Yup, I agree whole-heartedly, agirl... but still;
 
HOW does one 'let go' and trust online?  Does it take weeks and months?  Does on totally forget she is online and take each new post as it comes?  Does one totally forget all common sense (or sorry). 
 
Still, I AM serious here...HOW have you, to whom this (online)has been successful...make it work before even meeting? 
 
Dang, I'm getting tired of feeling like "...if we click' is some sort of attack!  Am I being impossible or realistic, here?
 
bearlee

(in reply to agirl)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Letting go...online - 9/2/2006 2:22:22 PM   
Bearlee


Posts: 2311
Joined: 10/25/2004
From: South Central CO
Status: offline 		 

Miss T.Milk...it made complete sense to me!  Thank you...
 
bear

(in reply to Bearlee)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Letting go...online - 9/2/2006 2:31:24 PM   
mstrjx


Posts: 2045
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		All righty, let's try this again.

I see the online issue in mostly positive lights.

I suspect that my next relationship will not occur with someone I already know r/t.  (It is possible it could happen if I were to go to a meeting or munch, but I haven't been to one in years.)  I don't know when (and it doesn't matter much, not in a huge hurry), and I certainly don't know who.  But I suspect it will be with someone online, possibly of some distance.  (Who knows?)

What we do here, in the forums, is a sort of chatting, with some time to reflect.  It is not directed at a single person, by and large, so it is a way of seeing how people think and react in an objective manner.  I believe you can come to trust (or at least know that you can respect) another through these means.  On occasion, a round or two of emails is passed.  (Although I'm really bad at seeing if it's an email of respect, or flirting.)

When it does become personal, I believe online 'getting to know you' is invaluable because it has the ability to save time if you realize the person you are conversing with is not compatible for you.  If there is an interest that I 'require' and it is something the other person absolutely abhors, then it's best to know ahead of time.  If it is somewhat of a thorny issue, then in chat or emails a discussion can occur, much like it does here, to make the issue into that 'no, never, goodbye' category or 'maybe this seems interesting' category.

Personally, if I haven't met someone, I don't go in for the masturbatory fodder.  (I'm too busy wearing Homestead's mittens to be able to accomplish even that.)  The concept of 'trust or more' comes quickly once someone meets me, so I don't want anything rushed to occur online.  No 'promises made, promises kept' sorts of issues.

I will continue online with someone only as long as it makes sense to move to phone or (hopefully sooner rather than later) face-to-face.  Sometimes I'm even a little leery with phone because I don't want to risk having someone being 'taken' by my voice.  Which happens.

To what extent you are comfortable 'letting go' online is really up to you.  For me, I know trust is a complete non-factor (how silly to even think such a thing!!!), so personal chemistry is most important.  To me.

Jeff

_____________________________

Know thyself. It's the best gift you can ever give yourself.

(in reply to Bearlee)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Letting go...online - 9/2/2006 2:49:47 PM   
Bearlee


Posts: 2311
Joined: 10/25/2004
From: South Central CO
Status: offline 		 
Right off da bat; 
 
I KNEW there was a reason I liked you Jeff!"  <gushes again...and laffs...>
 
Okay...I can't agree more that here...in the forums...we 'chat'.  But what about those who don't come here...who don't have benifit of such 'conversations'?
 
Without pointing fingers, I have to say I am overly tired of ALL the mail that insists I am the one who is lacking because I cannot find it in myself to 'trust' online after one week; especially if it leads to cyber. 
 
Geezeeeeeeeeeeeeeee... IS there a way around this?  I've met one or two really decent people from sites like this; I'd hate to imagine that I gotta wade through another 1000 to meet another such person!
 
HOW does this work, then?  Perhaps it is 100 (or 1000) to 1; I'd rather think not, though.  Perhaps, by and large, these sites ARE repositories for masturbatory foder?
 
Talk about a waste (and a shame, huh?)
bearlee

(in reply to mstrjx)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Letting go...online - 9/2/2006 3:29:45 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
But why are people insisting you trust after a week online?
That makes no sense.
 
When you ask about 'letting go'... do you ask with the intention of moving into meeting real time?  If the answer is no - then letting go doesnt matter - does it?
 
Peace and Rapture


_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to Bearlee)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Letting go...online - 9/2/2006 3:31:03 PM   
SirKenin


Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline 		Bearlee... Now you are beginning to understand why I feel the way I do about finding mates online.  I do not just feel this way for no reason.  I completely empathize with your position.

_____________________________

Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

(in reply to Bearlee)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Letting go...online - 9/2/2006 3:46:50 PM   
Bearlee


Posts: 2311
Joined: 10/25/2004
From: South Central CO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows
But why are people insisting you trust after a week online?
That makes no sense.
 
When you ask about 'letting go'... do you ask with the intention of moving into meeting real time?  If the answer is no - then letting go doesnt matter - does it?
 
dark, as I stated earlier "Do any of you folks, who’ve met your partners online, find that it is difficult to ‘let go’ of trust issues that ensue from online activities?  Surely real people are interested in real people…and want, actively, to get to KNOW a person?  NO?
 
Trolls not withstanding… I’m having a hard time figuring out if I’m having a difficult time letting go or not.  It seems to me it is the medium I do not trust…not the person; and I say it from time to time; to keep things REAL.  HOW is it I’m the one with the problem? DO I have a hard time letting go?  I wonder…
 
I'd appreciate your sincere comments.  I'm NOT discussing the one-liners we all get from time to time...I'm discussing a week's worth, or more, of correspondence here.  Thanks..."
 
...and inspite of what SirKenin says; people DO find each other here. 
 
I have a full life, (though work now is quiet and boring, so I play a lot here during the day), I go to real munches and parties and dinners with friends; I just use 'this' as yet another medium to meet people. 
 
I would just like to know HOW does it work when it works?  HOW do you 'let go' and build trust...especially online and before you actually meet?

(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 40
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