RE: Is abuse a precurser for being a slave/sub?

RE: Is abuse a precurser for being a slave/sub? (Full Version)

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[Poll]

Is abuse a precurser for being a slave/sub?

i am a sub/slave and was abused in the past.

33% (33)

i am a sub/slave that was NOT abused in the past

51% (51)

I am an Owner who's slave/sub was abused in the past

5% (5)

I am an Owner who's slave/sub was NOT abused in the past

10% (10)

Total Votes : 99

(last vote on : 7/4/2010 2:51:11 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )

Message

GentleDominantx2 -> RE: Is abuse a precurser for being a slave/sub? (9/2/2006 8:39:21 PM)
My two cents, professionally and non-professionally. There are an abnormal number of pre-abused people in this lifestyle. There are several reasons for this fact. I think perhaps the main reason is simply this. If you were raised in an abusive situation, it's generally safe to say it was a very controlling situation. The control while considered abuse, in it's own way becomes a comforting structure. There's a rather defined and predictable set of actions and consequences. In it's own way it becomes a conditioning tool just as D/s itself is. You constantly maintain a frame of mind of thinking ahead to predict, avoid or sometimes encourage certain actions towards yourself. It becomes a life of working to please someone, and avoid punishment. Sometimes the person, later in life does not feel fulfilled or 'safe' without that level of control in their lives. And usually there's a set of predisposed behaviours. Controlling onself, by addiction, or often dangerous behaviours (OCD, eating disorders, cutting etc) or by seeking someone else's control. Thus also, those people tend to find themselves later on in abusive adult relationships. Frankly I think for many folks who have been abused as children, the lifestyle can be a safe outlet, often times healing. However this is with the knowledge and understanding of thier ownselves and a healthy and 'sane' manner of approach. Just a few cents worth. Silver

Homestead -> RE: Is abuse a precurser for being a slave/sub? (9/2/2006 8:45:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GentleDominantx2 My two cents, professionally and non-professionally. There are an abnormal number of pre-abused people in this lifestyle. There are several reasons for this fact. I think perhaps the main reason is simply this. If you were raised in an abusive situation, it's generally safe to say it was a very controlling situation. The control while considered abuse, in it's own way becomes a comforting structure. There's a rather defined and predictable set of actions and consequences. In it's own way it becomes a conditioning tool just as D/s itself is. You constantly maintain a frame of mind of thinking ahead to predict, avoid or sometimes encourage certain actions towards yourself. It becomes a life of working to please someone, and avoid punishment. Sometimes the person, later in life does not feel fulfilled or 'safe' without that level of control in their lives. And usually there's a set of predisposed behaviours. Controlling onself, by addiction, or often dangerous behaviours (OCD, eating disorders, cutting etc) or by seeking someone else's control. Thus also, those people tend to find themselves later on in abusive adult relationships. Frankly I think for many folks who have been abused as children, the lifestyle can be a safe outlet, often times healing. However this is with the knowledge and understanding of thier ownselves and a healthy and 'sane' manner of approach. Just a few cents worth. Silver I quite agree with this insight. If one can look at the downside of the past, and reconstruct it with healthy elements, a great deal of damage can be undone. This is why I stress self-knowledge, and exploring motivational roots so strongly. While one cannot affect things that happened in the past, those roots can be shifted into soil that is no longer so very poisoned and bitter.

mistoferin -> RE: Is abuse a precurser for being a slave/sub? (9/2/2006 8:56:58 PM)
While I understand your reasoning I don't agree with it. Kink is not an effective cure for having a weird uncle. I strongly believe that it is vital for people to resolve their past to the best of their ability before entering into a relationship...whether it be BDSM or vanilla. The mind is a very fragile thing and too often the most well meaning people can do the most damage. If you have no understanding of psychology and the impact of abuse on the human mind...you should not be playing with it. Healthy relationships require healthy foundations.

Homestead -> RE: Is abuse a precurser for being a slave/sub? (9/2/2006 8:59:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin While I understand your reasoning I don't agree with it. Kink is not an effective cure for having a weird uncle. I strongly believe that it is vital for people to resolve their past to the best of their ability before entering into a relationship...whether it be BDSM or vanilla. The mind is a very fragile thing and too often the most well meaning people can do the most damage. If you have no understanding of psychology and the impact of abuse on the human mind...you should not be playing with it. Healthy relationships require healthy foundations. I never claimed to be a shrink. Professional therapy is best for solving problems-with the right therapist (some can screw you up even worse!) The point being made is that one should be aware of past HISTORY and knowing the triggers. And simply doing your best not to exacerbate it.

GentleDominantx2 -> RE: Is abuse a precurser for being a slave/sub? (9/2/2006 9:01:19 PM)
I agree that people should absolutely attempt to resolve their past as much as possible. And should not enter into a BDSM relationship as a cure. And I further believe that you HAVE to be upfront about your past, especially if it includes this type of history. However, I simply tried to point out the common predisposition towards the lifestyle. Certainly it's not everyone. You made some good points. Ty. :)

mistoferin -> RE: Is abuse a precurser for being a slave/sub? (9/2/2006 9:08:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Homestead I never claimed to be a shrink. Professional therapy is best for solving problems-with the right therapist (some can screw you up even worse!) The point being made is that one should be aware of past HISTORY and knowing the triggers. And simply doing your best not to exacerbate it. Forgive me if I misunderstood. Yes I agree that self awareness is crucial. I took this part of your last posting to mean that if you re-enacted the past in an environment of safety that you could resolve issues: quote: If one can look at the downside of the past, and reconstruct it with healthy elements, a great deal of damage can be undone. I often hear of people who think that re-enacting past abusive situations is wise...but it is a very slippery slope and should never be attempted, in my opinion, by those who are not qualified. Again, forgive me if I misunderstood.

Homestead -> RE: Is abuse a precurser for being a slave/sub? (9/2/2006 9:14:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin quote: ORIGINAL: Homestead I never claimed to be a shrink. Professional therapy is best for solving problems-with the right therapist (some can screw you up even worse!) The point being made is that one should be aware of past HISTORY and knowing the triggers. And simply doing your best not to exacerbate it. Forgive me if I misunderstood. Yes I agree that self awareness is crucial. I took this part of your last posting to mean that if you re-enacted the past in an environment of safety that you could resolve issues: quote: If one can look at the downside of the past, and reconstruct it with healthy elements, a great deal of damage can be undone. I often hear of people who think that re-enacting past abusive situations is wise...but it is a very slippery slope and should never be attempted, in my opinion, by those who are not qualified. Again, forgive me if I misunderstood. When I spoke of roots and redirection, I meant providing an emotionally healthy enviornment. Something to help compensate for the starvation and poison of the past. A gentle replacement, a leaching away.............I hope that made more sense.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Is abuse a precurser for being a slave/sub? (9/2/2006 9:20:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: darkinshadows something I notice, isnt the fact that there is more people who have suffered abuse that get involved in BDSM - its that theres a big drive on communication and people are more open to admitting that they were abused, so its more noticable. There is less judgement here on the whole, and people can understand where an abuse victim is coming from when they open up? I don't know... I am probably wrong - but thats my experience. Peace and Rapture Oh hell I'll just say it- Being in bdsm culture is also a place where a weak/abused/incapable female can not only get rewarded and reinforced, but actually easily swallowed up into the co-dependency and convinced they are "not a doormat, and very strong" AS they are being self-destructive and incompetent. Is there something about bdsm and abuse? I think we can say yeah- there wouldn't be this much controversy if there wasn't. But we can't really make anything more substantial than that, and it's very dangerous to start to make it OK for people to use bdsm as a crutch (even though many already do).

Homestead -> RE: Is abuse a precurser for being a slave/sub? (9/2/2006 9:22:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross quote: ORIGINAL: darkinshadows something I notice, isnt the fact that there is more people who have suffered abuse that get involved in BDSM - its that theres a big drive on communication and people are more open to admitting that they were abused, so its more noticable. There is less judgement here on the whole, and people can understand where an abuse victim is coming from when they open up? I don't know... I am probably wrong - but thats my experience. Peace and Rapture Oh hell I'll just say it- Being in bdsm culture is also a place where a weak/abused/incapable female can not only get rewarded and reinforced, but actually easily swallowed up into the co-dependency and convinced they are "not a doormat, and very strong" AS they are being self-destructive and incompetent. Is there something about bdsm and abuse? I think we can say yeah- there wouldn't be this much controversy if there wasn't. But we can't really make anything more substantial than that, and it's very dangerous to start to make it OK for people to use bdsm as a crutch (even though many already do). How many times have you seen me rail against exactly that LA? There is a CLEAR distinction between support and enabling.

mistoferin -> RE: Is abuse a precurser for being a slave/sub? (9/2/2006 9:31:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross Oh hell I'll just say it- Being in bdsm culture is also a place where a weak/abused/incapable female can not only get rewarded and reinforced, but actually easily swallowed up into the co-dependency and convinced they are "not a doormat, and very strong" AS they are being self-destructive and incompetent. .....and I thought I was being blunt........ :::ditto:::

talibahh -> RE: Is abuse a precurser for being a slave/sub? (9/2/2006 11:54:17 PM)
*i can only speak for myself, and say that i have not been abused... so it was never a pre-curser to my interest/involvment in bdsm or in me being a slave* *interesting discussion though* *thanks,* *tali*

SusanofO -> RE: Is abuse a precurser for being a slave/sub? (9/3/2006 1:02:56 AM)
I think LA is right. I don't mind seeing this question again (it's been asked before). I wasn't abused, except for maybe slightly emotionally, but no more thna anyone I knew was abused. I'de venture to say there isn't a famliy around that isn't dysfunctional on some level. I do think perhaps there might possibly be more folks involved in bdsm then other alternative life-styles". However, the question I have is this: If this is true - what does anyone do about it? Outside of being aware of it, and that it could impact relationships? It's not as if we are going to stop anyone from seeking out this lifestyle, nor should we. - Susan

darkinshadows -> RE: Is abuse a precurser for being a slave/sub? (9/3/2006 3:19:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross quote: ORIGINAL: darkinshadows something I notice, isnt the fact that there is more people who have suffered abuse that get involved in BDSM - its that theres a big drive on communication and people are more open to admitting that they were abused, so its more noticable. There is less judgement here on the whole, and people can understand where an abuse victim is coming from when they open up? I don't know... I am probably wrong - but thats my experience. Peace and Rapture Oh hell I'll just say it- Being in bdsm culture is also a place where a weak/abused/incapable female can not only get rewarded and reinforced, but actually easily swallowed up into the co-dependency and convinced they are "not a doormat, and very strong" AS they are being self-destructive and incompetent. Is there something about bdsm and abuse? I think we can say yeah- there wouldn't be this much controversy if there wasn't. But we can't really make anything more substantial than that, and it's very dangerous to start to make it OK for people to use bdsm as a crutch (even though many already do). Yup, I personally think you're right - so, how do you combat that? And whos 'fault' is it? Do we lay blame? I don't know, maybe it's just me, but when I see threads like this start up, whether its a poll or a discussion on who was abused, when, where, are you still being - I get the impression that people are either a) trying to justify it and make it ok - or b) looking for someone to blame for something (even if its blaming the person for starting the post in the first place). Peace and Rapture

Hercuckslave -> RE: Is abuse a precurser for being a slave/sub? (9/3/2006 3:41:42 AM)
a recent study conducted by a phd at a california university gave a whole battery of psych tests, including the myers brigg to several hundred self proclaimed members of the bdsm community, and the study showed that there is virtually NO difference whatsoever on all levels of phsyological factors and past experiences between the BDSM group and the control group of "normal" people. yes, there are many in the bdsm lifestyle who were abused, but no more or less than would be found in the general cross section of society. perhaps we are more aware of it in our community because most members of our lifestyle have "faced the beast" and are more open to talking about it. but the bottom line is we are just as "normal" as the "normal" folks. M's m

mistoferin -> RE: Is abuse a precurser for being a slave/sub? (9/3/2006 5:33:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: darkinshadows Yup, I personally think you're right - so, how do you combat that? And whos 'fault' is it? Do we lay blame? I don't know, maybe it's just me, but when I see threads like this start up, whether its a poll or a discussion on who was abused, when, where, are you still being - I get the impression that people are either a) trying to justify it and make it ok - or b) looking for someone to blame for something (even if its blaming the person for starting the post in the first place). I guess dark, that the only we way we have to combat it at all is to just keep answering that it is NOT alright. I wish I had a better answer than that. This has always been a frustrating issue for me

sublizzie -> RE: Is abuse a precurser for being a slave/sub? (9/3/2006 5:34:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SusanofO However, the question I have is this: If this is true - what does anyone do about it? Outside of being aware of it, and that it could impact relationships? It's not as if we are going to stop anyone from seeking out this lifestyle, nor should we. - Susan I think just being aware of it and knowing someone else's triggers, or being aware that something could be an unknown trigger, is a huge deal. 'Course that's appropriate behavior whether someone has been abused or not. I don't need to be handled particularly differently than anyone else. I have hard limits on things that are triggers for me (no incest-type scenes, can't call someone "Daddy", etc) but is that different than someone who has issues with heights or suspension? I spent countless hours and dollars in therapy to delve into my abuse, understand it, and learn to live with the after-effects. Few people would even know that I was abused if I didn't tell them. I'm as "healed" as one can be. So I'm probably not going to wig out on someone who respects my limits. Knowing yourself is over half the battle with prior abuse. Working to overcome the knee-jerk reactions are most of the rest of it.

mistoferin -> RE: Is abuse a precurser for being a slave/sub? (9/3/2006 5:42:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hercuckslave a recent study conducted by a phd at a california university gave a whole battery of psych tests, including the myers brigg to several hundred self proclaimed members of the bdsm community, and the study showed that there is virtually NO difference whatsoever on all levels of phsyological factors and past experiences between the BDSM group and the control group of "normal" people. yes, there are many in the bdsm lifestyle who were abused, but no more or less than would be found in the general cross section of society. perhaps we are more aware of it in our community because most members of our lifestyle have "faced the beast" and are more open to talking about it. but the bottom line is we are just as "normal" as the "normal" folks. I don't believe that several hundred examples would give conclusive results. How were these examples obtained? Were they volunteers or did every single person who walked into "Club Kink" on the 3rd Saturday of the month have to take this test? Is the sampling from all around the world?....or just from California? California alone would not provide an accurate sampling as it is really the State of Alternative Lifestyles. As I stated before...it has been in my experience that there are high numbers. I'd need to know alot more about that test for it to change my perception.

GentleDominantx2 -> RE: Is abuse a precurser for being a slave/sub? (9/3/2006 7:25:38 AM)
[/quote] I guess dark, that the only we way we have to combat it at all is to just keep answering that it is NOT alright. I wish I had a better answer than that. This has always been a frustrating issue for me [/quote] Ok I have to ask in order to avoid my own misunderstandings. Combat what? The enabling of co-dependant behaviours, or the limiting of lifestylers with past history of abuse? No I'm not attacking lol. I just got lost in there somewhere. Thing is I completely agree that much of this lifestyle allows for enabled behaviours that are not healthy. Baring in mind I'm not going to define 'healthy' as we all define things differently for ourselves. I personally have HUGE issue with the enabling of many behaviours I personally find...negatively impacting on the overall lifestyle. Submission is not weakness, nor should it be a crutch. It is also not an excuse. Indeed it takes strong individuals, for any type of a strong relationship. Again, only personal opinion, but I do not believe either the Dominant nor the submissive is any stronger than the other. I think both take an inner strength, self-knowledge, trust and communication that is equal. To me, it really comes down to a simple but often over-looked fact. It is still a relationship between people based on a foundation like any other. If the foundation is strong, so is the house is it built upon. Bowing gracefully from the thread, as she's said all she can. Thank you for the discussion. Silver

porcelaine -> RE: Is abuse a precurser for being a slave/sub? (9/3/2006 6:22:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ownedandcollared i have heard conjecture that slaves and subs often come into the lifestyle because they are "broken" by past abuse and seek it out because of the control and structure, as well as the parts of it that would have been labeled as abuse at one time in her/his life. Theories that i have heard say that they do this because it gives them some kind of control and choice over a situation where they had no choice in the past. There are people that come to this lifestyle simply because they lack the skill or willingness to control themselves and want someone else to do it for them. They thrive on the micromanagement and there's a huge faction of dominants that would appreciate this. The same is true of those that have experienced abuse in some capacity in the past. While many may follow this path simply due to personal interest, there are always some that land on these shores for other reasons that they may not be consciously aware of. I have personally known quite a few people that would fit within the parameters you've suggested with ease. I discount nothing and believe in life as with all things, the possibilities are neverending. porcelaine

OriginalWench -> RE: Is abuse a precurser for being a slave/sub? (9/3/2006 10:40:51 PM)
I can't answer this poll simply because none of the answers actually apply to me. I am not a sub, nor am I a dom. I am a switch. Two things I've read here really jumped out at me. quote: ORIGINAL: ownedandcollared however, taught to have something of a casual disregard of those who label themselves "switches" because they don't know themselves well enough to know who they are. Well. You can have a casual disregard all you want, but I have a pretty solid knowledge of myself, and I am a switch. I know what I want, when I want it, how I want it, and who I want it with. I know what I need. I know my body inside and out (too well sometimes). I'm pretty darn secure in who I am, and pretty comfortable with myself, even though I'm not perfect. quote: ORIGINAL: julietsierra Well geez! Aside from all the pop psychology mumbo jumbo, I kind of look at this from a chicken and the egg point of view. Which came first? The abuse leading to submission or the submission opening ourselves up for abuse. I'd have to say that submission certainly wasn't what opened me up for abuse. It wasn't submission, it was that I had NO choice. I was too young to remember when the abuse started in my life, and was starting into my 30s before I truly got away from it. Now, in my late 30s, I can say that I've done a LOT of healing, learned a LOT about myself, and have a LOT of good things in my life. On the topic of submission, there is only one person I have ever felt submissive to. That is The Mate. In any other relationship, I am generally the one who runs it, who makes the decisions, who becomes the caretaker, who takes responsibility, who get her way... however you want to put it. Granted, I've had to submit unwillingly (during the abuse), but nobody ever subdued my spirit. Now, I submit to The Mate because I want to, and it's worth it to know that doesn't mean I have to be broken or weak to do so.

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