RE: I Just Don't Get It (Full Version)

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Slipstreme -> RE: I Just Don't Get It (9/4/2006 4:19:51 PM)

quote:

Suicidal depression. Sounds like she needs committal to an institution.



I agree here.

However, to the OP, there is a fetish for everything, irregardless of what it is. My slave even, wants me to eat/ kill her at times. (Of course, I wont). I sometimes wish I could know what intense pain there is associated with dying a horrible death, having my skin peeled off etc. I also wish to inflict it. However, it is logic, that such things are impossible to bounce back from, that it is humanly impossible, that keeps it at bay, as is most with people who have such intense fetishes.

If it is as she sees it, "the ultimate act of submission" (which in a way it is, dying for someone else's pleasure, or for the masochist, feeling the ultimate end on the pain spectrum), the next time you speak to her, however, let her know if indeed it is, afterwards she would no longer be able to please her partner. After all, what use are you when you are dead?

This kind of fetish, is only healthy when kept to the recesses of our own dark mind, fantasy, art and story. Of course, though, reality is relative, and this is my thoughts on that.



SusanofO -> RE: I Just Don't Get It (9/4/2006 4:24:09 PM)

It is attention seeking, but on the chance the person is going to do this, or it's some kind of suicidal depression, if you want to feel you've lived up to a moral or ethical obligation to not participate in their scheme to end their life, or feel like you've done something to prevent that, I see a person who knows of such a person as having a few choices:

1) Let them know that you feel it's wrong to take your own life, or the life of another, simply to fulfill a masochistic fantasy, and that if they are looking for someone to help them carry out this plan, you are not the person they are looking for, as you could never do it.

2) This second option takes some investment of time and effort. Listen to them, and try to get to know them, if they let you. Try to get a feel for why they want to mutilate themself so badly it would end their life. Ask about their family, friends, their background, by doing some self-revealing talk about your own, and see if it gets them to open up. Try to find experiences or feelings you may have in common, or at least empathize with them if they say an experience they had left them feeling empty or worthless. Try to be their friend. If this goes on long enough, you might  be able to slip in a reference as far as a good counselor you saw one time, to help you work through painful feelings (and if you're intent on getting them help, I'd just find the name of one on my own, whether I saw one or not, and give them the phone number - in their city, of course. Is this "slightly dishonest?"? Yes - but in this situation, that would not matter to me - as it could be life-or-death, hanging in the balance. 

In any case, in a very low-key way, let them know decent professionals are available to help them talk painful feelings through and work on them for good, and that anti-depressants also can sometimes help. Remind them there is no shame in seeking this kind of treatment. There are still people on the planet who don't know such options exist, and this person might be one of them (you will be able to judge by how the discussion goes). If you can't judge, I'd mention it anyway, in a low-key way.

3) Tell them you value their life, and that no matter how attractive or how much of a turn-on this plan of theirs to end their life might seem - killing themself may leave a lot of emotional residue on some of the people in their life they care about (if there are any). Remind them, if they don't already know this, that suicide leaves the survivors sometimes emotionally devastated.They might  not care about this, if they are in tremendous emotional pain, but it's something they might want a reminder of. Regardless, I'd remind them of it anyway, on the chance it could matter.

Even if they just have a pet, their pet will miss them. Ask them what arrangements they've made as far as emotional care for others, should they carry out their plan. Let them know suicide can be one of the most selfish things a person can do - as far as leaving emotional pain for others to deal with. And that it can be life-long. If they don't care about this, they maybe should. But preaching about it won't work. Saying it more than once might make some impact, though.

Those are my "two cents." 

- Susan 



MrMister -> RE: I Just Don't Get It (9/4/2006 4:35:12 PM)

And a very good two cents indeed Susan.

The person most definitely is in need of some form of intervention from someone who genuinely cares. Not necessaraly know her as a close friend, etc, but simply care enough to want to and be able to make a difference and hopefully effect a change in her behavior and views.



Noah -> RE: I Just Don't Get It (9/4/2006 4:47:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

As well, there are lots of people in the world who really DO desire to disfigure themselves.



But we have to confront the subjective nature of the term disfigure, Don't we?

When we use a word like that it seems that we are almost inevitably making a value attribution as much as we may be attempting to state a fact. Does the modification in question move one in the direction of or rather away from societal norms for beauty? If not societal norms then perhaps the norms of a subculture need to be considered. If the ideal being approached is perfectly idiosyncratic and irrespective of norms, how do we judge a modification a disfigurement or an enhancement?

There's that word that makes some peple break out in hives. Judge.

Could a move away from societal norms be endorsed as a political act? Can disfigurements be justified (i.e. qualify as enhancements, say, or find some other form of justification) as spiritual acts or for in terms of value they may have in the marketplace?

That guy who lifts cinderblocks with the pin through his whatchamacallit.

We've all see the pictures in National Geographic. In some cultures, disfigurement is a good thing, right?

And we've all seen People Magazine too.

Tattoos. Piercings. Electrolysis or laser hair removal. A little collagen to puff up the lips. Botulism Toxin to immobilize facial muscles. A full scale surgical facelift. Implants or surgical reductions to the breasts. Fatectomy. Circumscision. Vericose vein removal. Dental bleaching. Orthodontia generally. Steroids for the sake of changing body morphology or even bodybuilding without steroids when taken to an extreme.

Yep. there are lots of people in the world who really do desire to disfigure themselves. And a lot of people pleased to do the disfiguring.

Try to strip away the evaluation for a minute and for the sake of discussion define "disfigure" more simply as "alter". Flesh it out as "modify the appearance of in a permanent or semi-permanent way".

I wonder how many of us have never volunteered for disfigurement?

I work with sharp things and big things and powerful things, often in awkward places and positions. Much care is taken but Things Happen. No one does work like mine for long without acquiring scars. Disfigurements.

But if the chicks dig 'em are they enhancements after all?

You can tell my hands from those of the average lawyer or accountant by sight or feel. Are my hands disfigured, by physical work? But isn't that what hands are for? Are his hands disfigured (preserved and kept from their natural state like a two fetuses in a jar) by his having been clever enough never to have had to do work for a living--in a Newtonian sense?

Hell. Did you ever spend a half hour in a farm supply store? It is hard to find a male over age thirty who remains uncrippled and unscarred in that line of work. These sorts of disfigurements can be seen as incidental--besides being accidental--whether or not they happen to be dental. But a tradesman can surely be said to volunteer for disfigurement in the same significant way that surfers and skiers and boxers do.

Never mind the trades and sports, laborers in general have for all time carried away from the workplace disfiguring reminders of the way they've made a living. This so that those who owned the means of production could be free to disfigure themselves in salons or on the polo field. The question of how much choice the laborers had remains open, I suppose, susceptible of answers particular to a given case.

I think the person described in the original post is not well, but it isn't a conclusion I jumped to at the first mention of a desire for disfigurement. I hope that she finds a way to take the meaning she desires from other sorts of experiences. I don't suppose it will be easy. I think a person like that can find herself encased in a shell not entirely of her own making but as personal as the callouses on a hand. I think that a person like that sometimes needs to be broken open, to have some remedial disfigurement done to her world view, and her heart or her soul.

Like a lot of operations it is almost as dangerous to do it as not to do it.

That said, the notion of disfigurement is an interesting one to me. I wonder if anyone else would care to comment.



SusanofO -> RE: I Just Don't Get It (9/4/2006 4:51:12 PM)

I don't think it's necessarily anyone else's job to try to "save" people who may just indiscriminately mention they have this desire, but I do think death is an "extreme" enough of a desire to warrant wondering why anyone who desired this as a "bdsm actvity" would want it. Wanting to kill yourself, is wanting to kill yourself, whether it's wrapped up in a package of "fulfilling a masochistic fantasy" or not.

If the person wants to claim they are in no emotional pain and it's their "right" to do as they please, etc. - I suppose nobody can stop them if they are intent on doing this. But just wanting this, simply because it's so extreme, does give me pause, and makes me think they may have emotionally painful issues it wouldn't hurt to discuss with a counselor. I once read that everyone has thought about suicide at one time or another. But to become obsessed with killing oneself to fulfill a masochistic fantasy is quite another thing altogether. I hope they don't do it, and I hope they eventually decide to find someone who will help them find out why they are intent on doing it. They won't have anything to offer the rest of the world if they are dead - the entire world will be deprived of what could have been their wonderful existence.That existence might seem to really suck at one time or another, and she may need some help to see that it might not always suck.

Maybe they think bdsm is the perfect avenue to kill themself within - simply because some folks would perhaps hesitate to "interfere with their kink" more than they might in some other "life-style". Mentioning it upfront, in a profile leads me to believe they really want somebody to do it, or help them do it to themselves, or at least discuss it with them - and they may be surprised to find there are some here who would never, ever consider it as "legitimate" option, and maybe even ask them to seek help, or try to help them. But getting help is their own decision, ultimately, even if somebody urges them to do it, of course.

- Susan



SusanofO -> RE: I Just Don't Get It (9/4/2006 5:13:47 PM)

Noah, I think you're right - nobody can really judge what is "disfigurement". It's not my kink, but if its hers, and she wants that, I say fine have at it. But she was mentioning it as an apparent slow path toward ultimately self-destructing, as she mentioned she wants to really be "six feet under, if all goes according to plan". That desire I do judge, and have no qualms about doing so, whether it's her "kink" or not.

It seems more like a "cry for help" to me, and hopefully, she'll find someone who will talk her out of it and urge her to seek professional help. I feel badly for anyone who truly wants end their life. I do think there are people don't realize it is indeed "final" - and that once you're dead - you're dead. Nobody's is bringinging you back to life. And you won't be around to "enjoy it", or its effects. It's not like you can wake up and say "Wow, that was really a rush! Hope I can do it again next week!" 

I think the line between fantasy and reality, for people who have really good imaginations, and who also may be suicidally depressed and attracted to activity this extreme, might just get blurry. Which is why, if it were me, and I ended up as her friend, I'd be very tempted to find out just why she wants to die. She could very well tell me it's none of my business, but I'd ask, and probably urge her to seek counselling.

- Susan 



Mercnbeth -> RE: I Just Don't Get It (9/4/2006 5:16:56 PM)

quote:

Yep. there are lots of people in the world who really do desire to disfigure themselves. And a lot of people pleased to do the disfiguring.


this slave wholeheartedly agrees.  How many females here on these very boards have the desire, (if not actually had the procedure), for cosmetic procedures: "breast lift", liposuction, collagen, botox, bleach-blonde hair, pierced nipples or genitalia or paint themsleves with make-up daily, dear-God-anything-but look-natural, as the Great Architect created them...and there is no shortage of practitioners and products for them to fulfill their "disfigurement" fantasies.  disfigurement, under the guise of "enhancement", is bought and sold daily without so much as the bat of an eye, usually.
 
depending on one's perspective, this slave's freckles are either "cute" or the result of permanent, disfiguring damage to her skin and this slave's stretch marks are either glorious reminders of the three unmentionables she brought safely into this world or ugly disfiguring scars of skin stretched so far it is practically translucent...and very loose.
 
Now, if one is going for a period costume look, of course Marie Antoinette or Elizabeth I or Cleopatra is going to look WAY more accurate portrayed in full wig and make-up...[:)]



marieToo -> RE: I Just Don't Get It (9/4/2006 5:31:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Noah


quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

As well, there are lots of people in the world who really DO desire to disfigure themselves.



But we have to confront the subjective nature of the term disfigure, Don't we?

When we use a word like that it seems that we are almost inevitably making a value attribution as much as we may be attempting to state a fact. Does the modification in question move one in the direction of or rather away from societal norms for beauty? If not societal norms then perhaps the norms of a subculture need to be considered. If the ideal being approached is perfectly idiosyncratic and irrespective of norms, how do we judge a modification a disfigurement or an enhancement?

There's that word that makes some peple break out in hives. Judge.

Could a move away from societal norms be endorsed as a political act? Can disfigurements be justified (i.e. qualify as enhancements, say, or find some other form of justification) as spiritual acts or for in terms of value they may have in the marketplace?

That guy who lifts cinderblocks with the pin through his whatchamacallit.

We've all see the pictures in National Geographic. In some cultures, disfigurement is a good thing, right?

And we've all seen People Magazine too.

Tattoos. Piercings. Electrolysis or laser hair removal. A little collagen to puff up the lips. Botulism Toxin to immobilize facial muscles. A full scale surgical facelift. Implants or surgical reductions to the breasts. Fatectomy. Circumscision. Vericose vein removal. Dental bleaching. Orthodontia generally. Steroids for the sake of changing body morphology or even bodybuilding without steroids when taken to an extreme.

Yep. there are lots of people in the world who really do desire to disfigure themselves. And a lot of people pleased to do the disfiguring.

Try to strip away the evaluation for a minute and for the sake of discussion define "disfigure" more simply as "alter". Flesh it out as "modify the appearance of in a permanent or semi-permanent way".

I wonder how many of us have never volunteered for disfigurement?

I work with sharp things and big things and powerful things, often in awkward places and positions. Much care is taken but Things Happen. No one does work like mine for long without acquiring scars. Disfigurements.

But if the chicks dig 'em are they enhancements after all?

You can tell my hands from those of the average lawyer or accountant by sight or feel. Are my hands disfigured, by physical work? But isn't that what hands are for? Are his hands disfigured (preserved and kept from their natural state like a two fetuses in a jar) by his having been clever enough never to have had to do work for a living--in a Newtonian sense?

Hell. Did you ever spend a half hour in a farm supply store? It is hard to find a male over age thirty who remains uncrippled and unscarred in that line of work. These sorts of disfigurements can be seen as incidental--besides being accidental--whether or not they happen to be dental. But a tradesman can surely be said to volunteer for disfigurement in the same significant way that surfers and skiers and boxers do.

Never mind the trades and sports, laborers in general have for all time carried away from the workplace disfiguring reminders of the way they've made a living. This so that those who owned the means of production could be free to disfigure themselves in salons or on the polo field. The question of how much choice the laborers had remains open, I suppose, susceptible of answers particular to a given case.

I think the person described in the original post is not well, but it isn't a conclusion I jumped to at the first mention of a desire for disfigurement. I hope that she finds a way to take the meaning she desires from other sorts of experiences. I don't suppose it will be easy. I think a person like that can find herself encased in a shell not entirely of her own making but as personal as the callouses on a hand. I think that a person like that sometimes needs to be broken open, to have some remedial disfigurement done to her world view, and her heart or her soul.

Like a lot of operations it is almost as dangerous to do it as not to do it.

That said, the notion of disfigurement is an interesting one to me. I wonder if anyone else would care to comment.



The thing is this though....is the disfigurement, how its defined, how its inflicted, endured, whether or not its loved or hated, gonna matter when the chick wants to be dead? 

And Im taking this whole thread as a hypothetical, because I dont believe this girls story is real.

PS:  What is a farm supply store?



porcelaine -> RE: I Just Don't Get It (9/4/2006 5:41:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlesubjess

I happened upon a fem subs profile on here yesterday ... i dont want to name names, but basically, she is looking for someone to disfigure her ... in her words .. "destroy her completely, especially her face, tits and genitals" ... i messaged her just to tell her she needs to be careful. she emailed back asking if i wanted to be friends with her, as she doesnt think she'll be around much longer. I asked, "why? are you likely to end up in hospital?" ... she said, "no ... more like six feet under if everything goes to plan"

I added her to msn, and spoke to her about it in more detail. basically not only does she want disfuigurement, but hopefully to die too ...  i asked her why she wanted to die, and she said "because then it is the ultimate submission", but i said, "well whats the point if your dead ?" and this is what she said ...  "ive always sought to be punished, to be hurt, to be damaged, getting more intense desires over time ... ive known for years this is how i want to go, so now i aim to do it"

Now, im not having a go ... i know everyone has their own ideas, kinks, dreams and desires, but i just dont get it ... can anyone explain ... or at least try to help me understand ?

i cant help thinking that this girl may be deranged in some way ... that she needs help before she does, or allows someone to do something serious to her.



I can't call her deranged or even disturbed. I hasten to say she's different because all that you've stated may seem very real and true in her mind. For her this is her reality and I'm certain the things I conjure in my head can be quite disturbing to someone that doesn't share similar interests. The unfortunate thing about this fetish isn't the fact that she wishes to die, but it is the price someone is willing to or will unknowingly pay in an attempt to grant her request.

porcelaine



SusanofO -> RE: I Just Don't Get It (9/4/2006 5:45:37 PM)

littlesubjess: Why don't you just -email her back and suggest she read this thread? I mean, you can't stop her if she really wants to do kill herself, But, reading this thread might provide her with some food for thought - and it could end up being just what she needs to get her to think things through before she's "six feet under", since that apparently is going to be relatively soon, according to what she's said, although I hope it's not what happens, for her sake and the sake of anyone she cares about, and who cares about her. It's one thought anyway.

- Susan



thetammyjo -> RE: I Just Don't Get It (9/4/2006 7:01:00 PM)

Is this only my reply to the OP.

To me, someone who claims that death is the ultimate submission is actually being very selfish.

I mean in most locations even your legal spouse or guardian can't take your life without it being a crime. So asking someone to hurt you so much that you die is asking them to commit a crime that they are very likely to punished (severely) for in the future while you are happily off the hook.

That is not submissive to me at all but the the signs of someone who lacks the drive or courage or whatever the heck you want to call it to either live their life or end their own life.

(this has nothing to do with people who want to have the right to end their lives when they get very ill or disabled; the person in OP does not sound like either and there might be legal ways to do that depending on where they lived that would not endanger another person)



SusanofO -> RE: I Just Don't Get It (9/4/2006 7:08:09 PM)

tammyjo: Wow, that's a really good point. The person who helps her do this if she kills herslef, is going to probably be in a lot of trouble, legally, and perhaps at some point, emotionally, too. It is a selfish thing to do. Like amayos also pointed out, it is not a sumissive act, if so many others are maybe, or likely to suffer because of it. It is actually self-serving, in the extreme.  

- Susan  



WhippingPostNY -> RE: I Just Don't Get It (9/4/2006 7:08:42 PM)

Some people in my life were horrified that i wanted to get my first motorcycle at the age of 48.

They feared for my life I think.  This caused me to think it through.

Would so rather go riding down a highway in the sun ...

WP



WhipTheHip -> RE: I Just Don't Get It (9/4/2006 7:17:33 PM)

There is a case where a female asked a guy to torture her to death,
and he did, and is serving time in prison.  She may have no family,
no one who cares about her, and she maybe full of emotional pain. 

Someone who wants to die, just wants their emotional pain to end.
You can't expect them to put the interests of others ahead of theirs.
All you can do is convince them, if you can, that there is
something better in living. 



Homestead -> RE: I Just Don't Get It (9/4/2006 7:26:10 PM)

Interesting thought Noah.

It sort of made my quaint little mind come up with a scenario. Suppose this woman came across an unscrupulous man of means. And he decided to take her up on it.

He had always wantred a "drone" for his harem. He brings her in and does an interrogation. Has her monitored by another servant. Then brings in an overseas doctor for the operations.

Has her body hair removed, all of it. Mastectomies done with liposuction and orthoscopic surgery, even the nipples. No trace is left, only smooth skin. Next the uterus, ovaries and vagina are taken out, the urethra rerouted. Only a smooth patch between her legs remains, and two holes for elimination. The plastic surgeon has done an astounding job, there are no visible scars.

She is now an it. Her desire is fullfilled-mutilation beyond recognition....yet still intact in a rough esthetic sense....but would she be satisfied?



PrimitiveLogic -> RE: I Just Don't Get It (9/4/2006 7:32:45 PM)

This story can be interpreted many ways, just as so many other posts twist and turn depending on the writer's experience, point of view, or simply a capricious devil's advocate response. This girl may be using classic passive agressive bait: hook you, see you try to help them; then dance just out of reach to make that connection. She may be pathologically focused, which is in the deeper end of the kink pool. When kink slips deeper into fetish, it become the realm of pathology...based on DSM criteria. She may be any of the alternative realities all repsonders have imagined... The point is, what if anything would you do in response to it? The positive thing I see is, it got a decent  set of perspectives flowing. That is what forums should be about. Unlocking perspective and expanding understanding. There is never going to be a simple right way to think/feel/act/etc. It is an evolution within ourselves to see things clearer as we get more information and realize that maybe I can learn  something new; even if it comes from unlikely sources. 
BTW, I have been a nurse therapist for over 25 years..8 of which were spent at Hopkins working in forensic sexual disorders. So there is always a story behind the story...few issues stand alone.



Homestead -> RE: I Just Don't Get It (9/4/2006 7:35:48 PM)

I still find things like this terribly interesting in the imaginitive sense.

Even an insane world carries elements of reality.



Noah -> RE: I Just Don't Get It (9/4/2006 7:54:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo


The thing is this though....is the disfigurement, how its defined, how its inflicted, endured, whether or not its loved or hated, gonna matter when the chick wants to be dead? 

And Im taking this whole thread as a hypothetical, because I dont believe this girls story is real.

PS:  What is a farm supply store?


If you're taking it as hypothetical then her potential death is no more salient than yours or mine to the notions of disfigurement, right?

Things are gonna matter, as you put it, to any number of people all around the globe who never have and never will hear of this hypothetical or not hypothetical CM personality. Things are gonna matter whether or not this chick wants to be dead. In fact things are gonna matter whether or not this chick is indeed dead.

We can talk about those things as such if we choose, with or without reference to this person who may or may not exist--as described by yet someone else who for all I know made the whole thing up, not that I doubt the original poster myself.

Separately, if this chick does exist as described, her life and death matter irrespective of anything we or the original poster may have to say about them.

We can talk about this chick. We can talk about her health, her motivations, her prospects and yes her death. I talked about her in my post.

Or, we can talk about ideas raised as the conversation proceeds. I did this also, attempting to place the ideas in a broader context.

The original post to a thread on some kink website just isn't the lynch pin (a product available at a certain kind of store, by the way) which holds the universe together. It is neither useless nor wrong to re-contextualize an idea in the course of a conversation, insofar as I have been able to tell.

Some people find ideas interesting insofar as they may apply to anyone.

Other people only seem to find ideas interesting insofar as they apply to this or that person, or one's self, or the person described in the original post.

May a thousand flowers bloom.

And die.



Now about the farm supply store; I have a feeling we should approach this gradually.

You are familiar with shoe stores and, say, pet stores.

You are familiar with the sorts of products featured for sale at a shoe store or a pet store.

As you will apparently need to imagine, to run a farm requires supplies.

Now I don't want to put too fine a point on things for you so I'll just say that this reminds me of that age old question about just what the heck Baby Oil is made of, anyway.







Noah -> RE: I Just Don't Get It (9/4/2006 8:02:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PrimitiveLogic

This story can be interpreted many ways, just as so many other posts twist and turn depending on the writer's experience, point of view, or simply a capricious devil's advocate response. This girl may be using classic passive agressive bait: hook you, see you try to help them; then dance just out of reach to make that connection. She may be pathologically focused, which is in the deeper end of the kink pool. When kink slips deeper into fetish, it become the realm of pathology...based on DSM criteria. She may be any of the alternative realities all repsonders have imagined... The point is, what if anything would you do in response to it? The positive thing I see is, it got a decent  set of perspectives flowing. That is what forums should be about. Unlocking perspective and expanding understanding. There is never going to be a simple right way to think/feel/act/etc. It is an evolution within ourselves to see things clearer as we get more information and realize that maybe I can learn  something new; even if it comes from unlikely sources. 
BTW, I have been a nurse therapist for over 25 years..8 of which were spent at Hopkins working in forensic sexual disorders. So there is always a story behind the story...few issues stand alone.


PL,

Thanks for an incisive recap and comment on the thread so far.

Please keep posting.



SusanofO -> RE: I Just Don't Get It (9/4/2006 8:13:50 PM)

Noah  you always make me laugh. And now, even I want to go have a second look at the ingedients list on my bottle of Baby Oil! [:D]    You also made a good point. I sorts felt responsible for this person, in a way, and do hope that subjess gets her to read this thread, but it is ultimately up to her if she goes six feet under, even though I think it would be sad, and a loss. Not to mention definitely, and ultimately final.

- Susan



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