RE: I Just Don't Get It (Full Version)

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Noah -> RE: I Just Don't Get It (9/4/2006 8:32:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

Noah, I think you're right - nobody can really judge what is disfigurement".


I guess we disagree then, Susan. It seems to me that we each must judge for ourselves what we see as disfigurement or enhancement.

As for the reason's behind a person's suicidal desires, while they may present themselves as deeply personal issues I think this is an illusion.
Instead see things this way.

A person with an anxiety disorder will--sensing what might be called 'free floating anxiety' attempt to link this anxiety to events in her life. She may indeed succeed in some sense with this linkage. But that puts the cart before the horse. The anxiety egg came before the "selected" problem chicken in an important sense--even if the "selected" problem predated the instance of pathological anxiety. Do you follow me?

A person with suicidal ideation has a disease, in my view, one of the symptoms of which is: suicidal ideation. In a predictable way this person--like the pathologically anxious person--will look for issues in her life to which she can attribute the deadly thoughts. It is a diabolical aspect of the disease which allows and promotes this, you might say.

Imagine that you woke up with a horrendous backache and what appears on x-rays as a run of the mill spinal fracture. Wouln't you wrack your brian for some event of the previous day or night which would account for this traumatic injury? Sure. Only natural to.

But what if in fact you had contracted some awful disease--curable by a change in diet, let's say--the symptom of which is "spontaneous" spnal fracture. If you remembered slipping on a banana peel and falling into your bed last night you might say: "That's it! That's what accounts for my broken bone."

And what a pity if you did not get tested to discover that instead you had this disease of spontaneous bone breaks. As such you will probably have to suffer more fractures before you have the sense to change your diet to address the actually underlying problem.

So in my analogy, the suicidal person has a disease (or other sort of pathological condition) one of the symptoms of which is suicidalness itself. Another symptom is a penchant for attributing the suicidalness to these or those challenges in life. Another symptom is a gross impairment in her ability to evaluate the most crucial sorts of matters in her life.

Replacing sad things in her life with happy ones, say, will probably not resolve the problem, which will need to be dealt with on its own terms unless the desired result is a suicidal person with a lot of happy things in her life.

Of course it is a complex matter which I'm drawing in black and white just to get one idea across but I hope I have succeeded in sharing that idea and that it might have value for someone here.



swtLeanna -> RE: I Just Don't Get It (9/4/2006 8:38:29 PM)

Sounds like an attention seeker.  i have been called one myself on occasions, thank goodness not to her extreme.




SusanofO -> RE: I Just Don't Get It (9/4/2006 9:10:40 PM)

Primitive Logic: What - of anything, would I do to try to stop this person if she wants to kill herself? Urge her to at least read this thread.

I do think you're right Noah. Self-perception is key. Because Every person has their own idea of what is disfiguring, or beautiful.

I think this person could be the most beautiful person in a Western, conventional sense, on the outside, and still want to kill herself, or a see herself as a very ugly person with beautiful qualities, or just ugly.

It's how she sees herself that matters. Not what she superficially looks like (to a degree anyway - more on that below). I am hoping she sees herself as valuable. She can do what she wants (or ask a Master do do this) to her own body in the name of increasing her superficial, corporeal beauty or ugliness, But- 

What if she someday, wants to have a new Master or Dominant (if she finds one or has one that agrees to disfgure her now)?
If she really thinks it through...

On a small scale, "if you decide to get that tattoo anyway", my mom used to say, "don't come bitching to me ten years from now because you think it looks silly. I'm not paying for your laser surgery to have it removed." In other words - what if she doesn't like it even five years from now? But I guess the idea here that might be attractive is the permanency.

This person, my hunch is, isn't doing this for decoration, or as an expression of cosmetic individuality, or even because a Master asked her to do it. Her stated goal is to permanently disfigure her body. I think it might be an outward manifestation of pain, in an extreme sense. If any Master suggested this to her - I'd get it in writing, so to speak, that he's not leaving her, because, depending on what it entails - her disfigurement might not be what any "new" or subsequent potential Master finds attractive.

And if she is a submissive, than the Dominant or Master is the one making that decision - and then I believe he should consider how long he intends to keep her around, and what if he "blows it" due to lack of skill, and it doesn't turn out right (the operation)? But of course lack of skill might not be high on the list of considerations here, I am guessing, for her anyway (maybe it is. Doesn't matter anyway - if she's dead). I am not trying to be a member of any saftey police force (at all) - but am saying that for this gal, it might be food for thought. One more time (even if she's "decided already"). Even if all "goes according to plan", as far as the disfigurment portion of her plan goes - I hope she stops to think about the following:

Noah's right - replace good thoughts with happy thoughts. Sounds too simple? Hmmm. Maybe - But the advantage is that it is the ultimate answer - and easy advice to follow, even though this might be a complex situation. Which is exactly why, I think, it is such good advice. As long as you have to thnk about something, why not try to be happier? I think for some people, depression and suicidal ideation can sometimes seem like a warm blanket one can wrap oneself in, and after a long time, it feels weird to realize there is another way to look at even the smallest things. So - if she does read this, I hope she thinks about the following: Even if it seems rote at first,  go outside and smell some flowers, or take a walk, and just think "gee the clouds are so beautiful, and the sun and moon is too" - and I can look at them for free, and nobody can take that away from me" is a start.

There is so much to live for! You can affect in a positive way so many other people in life - and if you don't think so it's just because you don't really know who you're affecting. Think about that. And let other people help you along, too - that is what we are here for. Just imagine what it would be like to never ever see the sun or trees or flowers again. Everything goes blank - because you're just not here anymore. Life is here for you baby, if you're reading this! Live it! Enjoy it! Write down all the things in even your own bedroom you'll never ever see again if you decide to check out. People do care if you leave this life. Other people. You should care enough about them, if not for yourself - the most important person to -at least give yourself one more day. The another, and another. And pretty soon a whole two weeks. Maybe a month. If every day you write down five or ten things that make you happy, just by their mere existence, and tell yourself you do deserve to enjoy them - beacuse you do -it will help. 

[:)]

-Susan



marieToo -> RE: I Just Don't Get It (9/4/2006 9:43:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Noah


<<<If you're taking it as hypothetical then her potential death is no more salient than yours or mine to the notions of disfigurement, right?>>>
 
Noah, I wasnt trying to take away from your points.  It was my thought that in this hypothetical girls world, the disfigurement would sort of be moot, because she wasnt going to live with it, but finish up by being killed or dying.  I guess I was focusing more on this "story" specifically, where you focused more on the philosophical. 


<<<Things are gonna matter, as you put it, to any number of people all around the globe who never have and never will hear of this hypothetical or not hypothetical CM personality. Things are gonna matter whether or not this chick wants to be dead. In fact things are gonna matter whether or not this chick is indeed dead.>>>
 
Yes, but there was nothing in the OP about things 'around the globe'.  IT was posed about a particular situation and a particular person and how another particular person didnt know how to deal with it.  Again,  the exchange of ideas on how disfigurement can be interpreted as beauty or not, was very interesting indeed, but my personal focus was more on the specifics presented in the the OP.  That doesnt mean yours should have been.  I didnt mean to imply that, but to question beyond what you had said.  

<<<We can talk about those things as such if we choose, with or without reference to this person who may or may not exist--as described by yet someone else who for all I know made the whole thing up, not that I doubt the original poster myself.>>>
 
Yes, Noah.  We/you/anyone can talk about anything if you choose, I wasnt trying to halt that.  I was merely asking how much the disfigurement would matter in relation to the fact that she would be hypothetically dead.    I do not doubt the original Poster either.  I doubt the story of the person she is speaking of.. I hope that is clear to the Original poster. But I think she understood what I meant.   Several others also suggested that the girl (the chick, NOT the OP) was merely seeking attention.  That was my feeling as well.  So I stated such. 


<<<<Separately, if this chick does exist as described, her life and death matter irrespective of anything we or the original poster may have to say about them.>>>>

I would agree.  I just dont think the disfigurement would matter much if the person is dead.  That was my point. 

<<<We can talk about this chick. We can talk about her health, her motivations, her prospects and yes her death. I talked about her in my post.

<<<Or, we can talk about ideas raised as the conversation proceeds. I did this also, attempting to place the ideas in a broader context.>>>>

Yes, I understand that.  And you made a brilliant post as usual.  I read it, appreciated it for exactly what it was---An eye-opening piece about the different ways disfigurement could be viewed as beauty or symbolic in some instances,  even or cultural etc----. It was a well-written post. I enjoyed it,  and then it raised a question in my mind, Noah.  That question being..."how much would the disfigurement and how its viewed, matter if she was dead". 

<<<The original post to a thread on some kink website just isn't the lynch pin (a product available at a certain kind of store, by the way) which holds the universe together. It is neither useless nor wrong to re-contextualize an idea in the course of a conversation, insofar as I have been able to tell.>>>
 
I  couldnt possibly agree with you more.  And I didnt mean to imply such that your point shouldnt be discussed or spoken, I only added to it by asking what meaning it would have if the person was dead.  In another moment in time, that question may have added something to the discussion.


<<<Some people find ideas interesting insofar as they may apply to anyone>>>>.

Agreed.  Im one of them. And Im also one, who at times, focuses on the OP specifically and sometimes I do that by applying what a person posts and seeing where it takes me, then I respond with what crosses my mind. 

<<<Other people only seem to find ideas interesting insofar as they apply to this or that person, or one's self, or the person described in the original post.>>>

I dont know if Id agree that any one person is that limited, but I supposed it could be the case. 



<<<Now about the farm supply store; I have a feeling we should approach this gradually.

You are familiar with shoe stores and, say, pet stores.

You are familiar with the sorts of products featured for sale at a shoe store or a pet store.

As you will apparently need to imagine, to run a farm requires supplies.>>>>




Actually I kinda figured that something that you would use on a farm would be found at such a store.  What supplies specifically, I couldnt imagine. Maybe seeds and manure and things of that nature.  I dont know.  Sometimes Im just that dumb.  What baffled me about what a "farm supply store" is, was how you said that if you go into one you will see disfigured people over the age of 30.  I couldnt and still cant connect farm supply stores with disfigurement. maybe I shouldve posed it differently.   What kind of specific things are sold in farm supply stores and why are the people there disfigured.  Is being a farmer dangerous?  I dont know.  I didnt get it,  so I asked. 



Wolfie648 -> RE: I Just Don't Get It (9/4/2006 9:54:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlesubjess

I happened upon a fem subs profile on here yesterday ... i dont want to name names, but basically, she is looking for someone to disfigure her ... in her words .. "destroy her completely, especially her face, tits and genitals" ... i messaged her just to tell her she needs to be careful. she emailed back asking if i wanted to be friends with her, as she doesnt think she'll be around much longer. I asked, "why? are you likely to end up in hospital?" ... she said, "no ... more like six feet under if everything goes to plan"

I added her to msn, and spoke to her about it in more detail. basically not only does she want disfuigurement, but hopefully to die too ...  i asked her why she wanted to die, and she said "because then it is the ultimate submission", but i said, "well whats the point if your dead ?" and this is what she said ...  "ive always sought to be punished, to be hurt, to be damaged, getting more intense desires over time ... ive known for years this is how i want to go, so now i aim to do it"

Now, im not having a go ... i know everyone has their own ideas, kinks, dreams and desires, but i just dont get it ... can anyone explain ... or at least try to help me understand ?

i cant help thinking that this girl may be deranged in some way ... that she needs help before she does, or allows someone to do something serious to her.

Anyone ?

Jess xxx



What's to get. She is not you.

I am me as you are me as we are all together. (Beatles).

Black white.

I hope she finds something to change her mind (although I don't know she needs it - from my perspective I would say yes she needs help; from her perspective she thinks not) (it really sounds like she is not looking so chances are slim).

To further explain:

Let's say person A thinks person B is insane to take an order from person C. Does person A or B need to be 'fixed'? Maybe person C.

I too cannot say I understand it or condone it, but it's not my choice it's hers. There is nothing to understand; other than it's a choice.

Moving on to other posters.

Either way I wouldn't say this is a no limits slave. This is a 'sub' (as per OP's description) who wants (wants=limits in this instance) something. That she be killed. To me no limits is not about the sub/slaves wants it's about mine.

Tossing on the hot potato to someone else.

D (owner of j)



mons -> RE: I Just Don't Get It (9/5/2006 2:51:04 AM)

greetings
 
yes she is ill but think of this what of the person who does this for her. he is really deranged. this is something to report to the moderator and fast she is asking someone to kill her and someone will do this there are many sick people in this world and if she turns up die they willsearch this forum for the person how has do this trust me she is very serious but how sad for her to feel this pain i hope someone seee her post and help her
take care
 
mons



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: I Just Don't Get It (9/5/2006 7:01:57 AM)

Marie- for the quote help.

When you want to go line by line on a long post, hit "quote" which will then pop up a response box with all of that persons post quoted for your reply.

Delete the [*/quote*] at the end of the quoted text.

Insert a [*/quote*] at the end of THEIR text where you want to begin your first response chunk.  In this recent case, directly after Noah's "right?"

Type your response.

Insert a [*quote*] at the beginning of the next chunk of text you want to respond to.

Repeat steps above.

Obviously, remove the *'s when actually doing this.

As long as you have a pair of quote brackets at the beginning and end of each quote section, it reads well.  You just have to delete that first end quote when the response box first comes up.



marieToo -> RE: I Just Don't Get It (9/5/2006 7:48:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Marie- for the quote help.


ah great. shes gonna do something nice.  <probably just trying to boss me around>

quote:

When you want to go line by line on a long post, hit "quote" which will then pop up a response box with all of that persons post quoted for your reply

Delete the [*/quote*] at the end of the quoted text.

Insert a [*/quote*] at the end of THEIR text where you want to begin your first response chunk.  In this recent case, directly after Noah's "right?"

Type your response.


I got your response for ya.  Right here!

quote:

Insert a [*quote*] at the beginning of the next chunk of text you want to respond to.

Repeat steps above.


ah do I hafta? 

quote:

As long as you have a pair of quote brackets at the beginning and end of each quote section, it reads well.  You just have to delete that first end quote when the response box first comes up.


ahhhhhhh ok. A couple of others have tried to explain this to me.  But it was never clear to remove the bottom "end quote" symbols, of the original text. That was the biggie! 

Thanks!!

Edited for a typo.  argh.



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: I Just Don't Get It (9/5/2006 9:23:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo
ahhhhhhh ok. A couple of others have tried to explain this to me.  But it was never clear to remove the bottom "end quote" symbols, of the original text. That was the biggie! 

Thanks!!

Edited for a typo.  argh.

I thought that might have been it.  The program just looks for the last matched pair.  So if you have a beginning quote at the start, and an end quote at the very end, it sees the whole thing as something to be quoted.  Now you know!



Emperor1956 -> RE: I Just Don't Get It (9/5/2006 10:35:32 AM)

Hi jack!  What is a farm store?

MarieToo: 
quote:

Actually I kinda figured that something that you would use on a farm would be found at such a store.  What supplies specifically, I couldnt imagine. Maybe seeds and manure and things of that nature.  I dont know.  Sometimes Im just that dumb.  [snip]  ...  I couldnt and still cant connect farm supply stores with disfigurement. maybe I shouldve posed it differently.   What kind of specific things are sold in farm supply stores and why are the people there disfigured.   


No, Marie, you aren't dumb.  It is simply that you didn't get a plain, simple answer.  Farm supply stores (also called "ranch stores" depending on where you live) are large retail stores geared to selling supplies for working agricultural families.  Think of a WalMart where along with the back-to-school shopping, you can also get a swine emasculator* and cow magnets**.

Of interest to the readers of CM boards, farm stores are probably the greatest "vanilla" shopping experience for kinky folk.  They have it ALL OVER a "home depot" or a kitchen store, because they have those items, plus.  Horse tack offers endless possiblities for pony players and just kinky types; vet supplies (most purchaseable without a prescription) make for the best medical scenes, and if you've ever worked on a farm or ranch, you know the world is full of rope, hardware, rubber straps, leather.

quote:

Is being a farmer dangerous?
  Yes!  Very.  Being a farmer is one of the most dangerous occupations in the USA.  Funny you should ask this, because traditionally OSHA (the USA agency that keeps track of such things) releases the annual mortality statistics by job around Labor Day.   This year, farm workers came in at #7 of the top 10.  (Commercial loggers are #1, Miners are #5.  Police and fire don't appear on the list at all).

Further, youth (people under 19) are disproportionately injured in farm accidents, to the tune of over 30,000/year for the past 10 years. 
quote:

An estimated 104 children younger than 20 die of agricultural injuries on U.S. farms and ranches annually. Fatality rates among young agriculture workers range from 12 to 16 per 100,000 workers, about three times the private sector rate. The fatality rate for all workers in agriculture is 19.2 per 100,000 workers. Of male youth fatalities, 53 percent occur in crop production. Female youth fatalities occur primarily in livestock production. Farm machinery (including tractors) is the leading agent of fatality, accounting for 36 percent of deaths to youth less than 20 years old. Thirty percent of farm machinery-related deaths are among children less than 5 years old. Drowning is the second leading mechanism of death on farms with children less than 5 years of age, accounting for 32 percent of farm deaths.
The highest injury rates for all farm youth were seen for youth less than 10 years of age and youth 12 to 13 years of age (two injuries per 100 youth). The three most prevalent mechanisms of injury to youth less than 20 are falls (22 percent), followed by off-road transportation incidents (15 percent), and being struck by objects (11 percent). -- "Youth Agricultural Injury Statistics"  AL Coop Ext. System, 2005.
  These are all things people should know when they talk about the "good old days" down on the farm.  Perhaps the comment about disfigured people in farm stores relates to these statistics, but I don't know.  I don't think that shopping in a farm n' fleet raises your chances of injury, but using the things you bought there on a farm probably does.

E.

_____________________________
*Perfect gift for the Dommes on your Christmas list
**Ok.  How many readers of this note KNOW what a cow magnet is?  Don't google it.  I dare yah...tell Me.

PS:  Here are links to three of the biggest retailers of farm supplies in the USA, and the fourth to a tried and true source of all things authentically western ranch, WRS.
http://www.farmandfleet.com/
http://www.fleetfarm.com/
http://www.tractorsupplyco.com/
http://www.westernranchsupply.com/



LaTigresse -> RE: I Just Don't Get It (9/5/2006 10:40:48 AM)

NOTE: for anyone that is confused about a "farm store" please see me. I write approximately 3 checks a week. One to the grocery store to feed myself and the small furry babies, one for gas to feed the "custom" lil black car I drive, one to Orschelns (farm supply store) to feed the big furry babies. Farm supply stores are woooooooooonnnnnnder places for all sorts of good things![;)]



marieToo -> RE: I Just Don't Get It (9/5/2006 1:01:40 PM)

Emperor:

Thank you for the enlightenment and for taking the time to write such an informative post.  The links etc.  Thank you. 

The tragedy of those injury stats blew my mind.  I mean...really.  The children etc.  Yes, I would imagine injuries or 'disfigurments' could and do occur from the use of the equiptment and the fact that it would seem that families who farm include the kids in the work venture.  I guess I never imagined that the machinery used to work the grounds would be the reason that so many are injured.  I still dont totally understand how it cant be done in a safer way, but thats because I dont live it, nor have I ever even seen it.   I would imagine every possible effort is made to prevent injury, but apparently even with that, there is alot of danger.    

I sit here safely in my Northern NJ suburb and I go to the store when I need lettuce, and meat, or eggs, and flour, never imagining that people, children no less, are being maimed, killed and injured for such produce that I pick up and examine for freshness before I put it in the cart.  I was clueless that I was even this ignorant about it.  I dont mean to make excuses for it, but I suppose in alot of ways, I am wrapped up and consumed with life only the way I live it and I dont give much thought to other 'cultures' unless they are brought to my eyes for one reason or another;  as was the case here.  I guess we do live in completely different worlds sometimes, if only a state or two away. 

Thank you.

marie.




BD123 -> RE: I Just Don't Get It (9/6/2006 9:43:07 PM)

 I had a friend who committed suicide once. He was diagnosed with a terminal brain cancer that caused him to go blind, developed muscular and speech problems. He lost his job along with health insurance. Endured expensive chemo and radiation therapy that did not slow the progress of the tumor but made him only sicker and depressed. His wife and kids left him; most of his ‘good friends’ left him. He stated that death would be a release for him, and believed that a better life awaited him after death.  I could understand why he took his own life.



RiotGirl -> RE: I Just Don't Get It (9/6/2006 10:49:00 PM)

Hey Jess

i've a friend whose got a Dolcett site.  Pretty much the same thing.  Round abouts anyways.  Honestly i dun get it either!  Whats the point eh?

Well after reading the thread, i figured i should go into it more.  Hearing of the girls "fetish" isnt really suprising to me.  Hell the Dolcett Girls.  From what i've gathered, the ultimate is to be meat.  Death, barbeque, being gutted, eaten.. all that.  Here i googled it and the first link that came up said this

Dedicated to the Dolcett lifestyle, snuff, consensual cannibalism, sexual cannibalism, torture, sex, death and fine dining.

Some ppl are into more EXTREME things.  Eh, let em have it.  Granted i dun get really get it.  i definetly know its not for me, as the end result sorta curtails anything else.  But who am i to judge?  If its what they want to do with their lives, so be it.  AND they do have some REALLY interesting stories.  i remember one, that had like this thing called the Jessica 3000 or something.. basically it was like a spike a girl sat on.. and got off on.. as it pierced through her internal body and popped out her mouth!  She seemed to quite enjoy the last remaining minutes or seconds of her life very very much.



littlesubjess -> RE: I Just Don't Get It (9/7/2006 4:41:26 AM)

ohh thanks for that riotgirl ... perhaps i should forward that link to the girl ? im not sure if it would do her good or bad ... i did tell her about this thread but she wasnt very impressed because everyone is against the idea

thanks though hun .. much appreciated

jess xxx



SusanofO -> RE: I Just Don't Get It (9/7/2006 4:45:52 AM)

littlesubjess: Well, you suggested she read this thread. That was nice of you, I think. If you gave her the impression everyone is against her going six feet under, I say good for you. I don't think everyone on this thread is against bodily mutilation as a general kink, and in fact I didn't really see one person say that as a definitive statement that applies to everyone else. What I did see was philosophical discussion of it's merits and drawbacks.

**If you want to Google kink aware professionals and see what comes up, maybe forwad her that site. She can find a counselor in her areas who can help her with this urge to die. Anybody out there got that site reference? 

I do agree some here appear to definitely disagee with her self-propelled goal to ultimatley be "six feet under, if all goes as planned." Because there are some who don't see suicide as a kink, but view it as self-destruction that is, most importantly,  final. She undoubtedly has positive things she can offer this world that she cannot if she is dead. I wish she valued herself more, and felt happier.

I am not sure what else you can do for her?  If it were me, I'd tell her if she wants to read the Dolcett site, that your computer is having problems, and you I can't forward it just now, but - if she wants to read it, it's here on the CM forums, and just generally ask her how she's doing, be a nice, usual self, and ask her if she has any pets, or unmentionables, or people she really cares about in her life, and talk about people you have that you care about (my don't you have something in common already?)and see where it goes (if anywhere). 

I'd forward her a site with information containing the names of counselors in her area she could talk to from the kink aware professionals site. I know I'd sure miss my doggies if I was dead. They'd miss me, too. I do think this slight dishonesty (about your PC not workig just now) is justifiable considering the circumstances. Also - If she has internet access, she can always find that Dolcett site, and more like it besides, on her own. The ultimate decsion re: Whether or not she indeed checks out for good is her own.  
[:)]
- Susan



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