RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! (Full Version)

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evyy -> RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! (9/7/2006 5:39:45 AM)

more to the point, alligators are not crocodiles! any more then a billby is a rabit, croc's attack people, croc's kill people, croc's cannot be tamed, and cannot be trusted, they can be 'handled' but it dont matter how much you think you know what your doing, you dont risk a baby on it. he should be forgiven for it, everyone is allowed moments of stupidity, but that dosnt change the fact that it was stupid




WhipTheHip -> RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! (9/7/2006 6:30:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NastyDaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip
Neither Steve nor his child were in the slightest bit of danger. 
That would have especially been the case with alligators since
alligators do not attack humans.  If you live in alligator country
you have 100 times greater chance of getting hit by lightning
then getting killed by an alligator.   I presume they were
crocs not gators, but even so Steve knew what he was doing.


Tell that to the dozen or so people that alligators attacked and killled last year (2005) in Florida. Three of them happened in September while I was in Kissimmee for a month. Two of those attacks/killings were in the water on swimmers, the other was a jogger alongside a canal.


You are hallucinating.    There were three people killed in Florida by alligator attacks this year.
They were all highly reported.  It was a highly unusual year, and a total aberation.  Under 60 people
have died from alligator attacks in the last 60 years.    Out of a very huge number of alligators in
the state of Florida, there are a few that can be dangerous.   That is the nature of the gene pool. 
After you've verified that just three people were killed by alligators this year in Florida, check-out
how many Floridians were killed by homo sapiens.    You are much safer staying away from
humans than you are from staying away from alligators.   




aslv2kneel -> RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! (9/7/2006 6:37:00 AM)

by krikey - he will be missed - but never forgotten




WhipTheHip -> RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! (9/7/2006 6:48:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: evyy
more to the point, alligators are not crocodiles! any more then a billby is a rabit, croc's attack people, croc's kill people, croc's cannot be tamed, and cannot be trusted, they can be 'handled' but it dont matter how much you think you know what your doing, you dont risk a baby on it. he should be forgiven for it, everyone is allowed moments of stupidity, but that dosnt change the fact that it was stupid


I agree that in general crocodiles are much more more dangerous than alligators, but I don't believe Steve's baby was in any danger.  Crocs do attack and kill people.  I remain unconvinced that they can't be tamed.  I don't believe Steve's baby was in
any danger.  I trust Steve's knowledge of croc's and this particular sitution, more than I trust your knowledge of crocs, and the particular situation.  





WhipTheHip -> RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! (9/7/2006 6:59:39 AM)

Najakcharmer, NastyDaddy, and MadDogBenji are three nasty people. 
A lot of people take a lot more risk in bdsm activities than Steve Irwin
ever took.  I hate judgmental people.  Had Steve Irwin not died in a
fluke accident, these cynics would still be pissing and moaning.  It
is amazing how some people just zero-in, and every little negative
thing, and turn molehills into mountains. 
 
Najakcharmer seems to be an expert on every subject, yet proved in
another thread she really knows very little.  She claimed the cause
of obesity is hard science, and she seemed to imply she has the
answer, that it is simply a matter of eating less, and exercising more.

I guess the 1,000 plus researchers researching the topic can now
change their field of research.. 




LaTigresse -> RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! (9/7/2006 7:58:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NastyDaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

It seemed to me that the alligator that I fed became tame. 
It would get out of water and stand on its hind legs and tail and beg for food, at  which point it stood as tall as me. 
It never made a threatening move.  It let me pet its hard snout, and squish its back. 
It was ten feet long.
  

What the hell have you been smoking? You need to call the cops and tell them there's a bad batch of crack!

I've lived all over Florida most of my life, hunted alligators and wild hogs in the everglades barefooted, had alligators as pets my entire youth after catching their little six inch long asses and raising them on coldcuts and hot dogs until they were big enough to eat raw chicken legs. Toted them in my shirt pocket as I rode my bike delivering newspapers. I've dressed out alligators and eaten alligator tail steaks all my life.

There is no fucking way in hell ANY alligator can stand on it's hind legs, namely because the joints would never support the full weight as they swivel and get pushed out of their sockets. The legs only support weight when at a 90 degree angle (right angle) to their body, and the only other option is angled back parallel to the body for swimming... propelled by horizontal tail sweeps. 

It can't stand on it's tail either, the tail ONLY flexes horizontally... it does NOT flex vertically under muscle control, it simply can't. Do you know what the CG point of an alligator is? You've got your alligators mixed up with your kangaroos!

Did you bitch-slap the alligator that walked up to you on his tail and make him go bury his head in the sand... or did you just look up at him and pet his hard snout?

By the way, those little lizards you see running across the water on their hind legs are not alligators.

I've seen you post some really really stupid shit... but omg dayum this is the coup de' grass!!!  [:D] 


I had to laugh at that post also. I just considered the source and moved on to the carrot market. Do you suppose I could get one to sit up and beg for carrots?




NastyDaddy -> RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! (9/7/2006 8:30:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

quote:

ORIGINAL: NastyDaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip
Neither Steve nor his child were in the slightest bit of danger. 
That would have especially been the case with alligators since
alligators do not attack humans.  If you live in alligator country
you have 100 times greater chance of getting hit by lightning
then getting killed by an alligator.   I presume they were
crocs not gators, but even so Steve knew what he was doing.


Tell that to the dozen or so people that alligators attacked and killled last year (2005) in Florida. Three of them happened in September while I was in Kissimmee for a month. Two of those attacks/killings were in the water on swimmers, the other was a jogger alongside a canal.


You are hallucinating.    There were three people killed in Florida by alligator attacks this year.
They were all highly reported.  It was a highly unusual year, and a total aberation.  Under 60 people
have died from alligator attacks in the last 60 years.
    Out of a very huge number of alligators in
the state of Florida, there are a few that can be dangerous.   That is the nature of the gene pool. 
After you've verified that just three people were killed by alligators this year in Florida, check-out
how many Floridians were killed by homo sapiens.    You are much safer staying away from
humans than you are from staying away from alligators.   

It's EASY to see who is hallucinating on bad crack and the Discovery Channel, LOL  [:D]

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip
Roughly 50 people have been killed in Florida by alligators in the last 100 hundred years.

Now you forgot which numbers you already used... tsk tsk tsk them fucking molehill details...

In just these two posts alone YOU have saved 10 people and 40 years of alligators feeeding on humans, LOL  [:D]




NastyDaddy -> RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! (9/7/2006 8:48:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

Najakcharmer, NastyDaddy, and MadDogBenji are three nasty people. 
A lot of people take a lot more risk in bdsm activities than Steve Irwin
ever took.  I hate judgmental people.  Had Steve Irwin not died in a
fluke accident, these cynics would still be pissing and moaning.  It
is amazing how some people just zero-in, and every little negative
thing, and turn molehills into mountains. 
 
Najakcharmer seems to be an expert on every subject, yet proved in
another thread she really knows very little.  She claimed the cause
of obesity is hard science, and she seemed to imply she has the
answer, that it is simply a matter of eating less, and exercising more.

I guess the 1,000 plus researchers researching the topic can now
change their field of research.. 

Alternatively, you can feed the the 1,000 plus researchers to overweight alligators walking on their tails while you reach up through the clouds to pet their hard hollow paper mache snouts.... hey, fire up anuther one dood!  [8D] 

You can't possibly be that fucking stupid, so it must be your nasty crack habit and existence in extreme denial. It looks like you need a first hand barefoot tour of the Everglades.... check your schedule Jules and let me know.

The only other plausible explanation is that you are conspiring with the alligators to setup gullible tastey human morsels for the kill... did the Stacey Keach cop character in Cheech & Chong's movie give you a hardon when his lizard tail was in frame view?  [:D]




NastyDaddy -> RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! (9/7/2006 8:54:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

...Do you suppose I could get one to sit up and beg for carrots?


If Whip can do it... then surely lesser mortal humans can make an attempt. I'd guess he is a much better carrot dangler than any of us could possibly ever hope to be... It's all in the proper or improper handling of the vicous unpredictable carrot in hand!  [8|] 




Lordandmaster -> RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! (9/7/2006 9:55:48 AM)

Oh please.  This coming from a world-class amateur physicist former hotel owner with the solution to the Democratic Party's problems...

Edited to add: Oh yeah, I musta forgot--who also says that he once played with an alligator who reared up on his hind legs like a begging doggie.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

Najakcharmer seems to be an expert on every subject, yet proved in
another thread she really knows very little.




NastyDaddy -> RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! (9/7/2006 10:05:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds. --Calvin


These here spirits in your sig... do they come in a bottle with paper tax seals over the cap that you have to muscle your way through?




ModeratorEleven -> RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! (9/7/2006 10:26:04 AM)

Calm down, folks.

XI




Najakcharmer -> RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! (9/7/2006 7:44:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip
Najakcharmer seems to be an expert on every subject, yet proved in
another thread she really knows very little.  She claimed the cause
of obesity is hard science, and she seemed to imply she has the
answer, that it is simply a matter of eating less, and exercising more.


Um....I think you may have some issues with reading comprehension.  Science is not the cause of *anything*.  Science is the dynamic process of using good tools and rational methods to collect data.   Science is not the end result of having all the answers, but the process of getting the answers. What we know about the universe is constantly changing, because the methods and the data we use are (and should be) constantly updated as we continue gathering more and better information. 

What I have actually stated is that hard science is applicable to the issue, and there are some specific items that are generally known to be factors in the biochemistry of calorie partitioning.  What you eat and how much energy you expend are critical factors, the baseline equation.  There are a great many other factors involved that significantly modify the equation.  Feel free to take a printout of this paragraph to any medical doctor or researcher in this field and see if any disagreement can be mustered.  Better yet, see if they can explain it to you in words you will understand.

I'm not posting my resume here for the obvious reasons, but you seem to have managed to get yourself in the middle of discussions in two specific areas that are in fact relevant to my work.  I certanly don't claim to know everything about everything, but this is one of those situations where it is a shame that I cannot point out why I do have reason to know whereof I speak on these particular subjects.   To those of you on this site who are in the know, I'm sure this has all been remarkably entertaining.  [;)]


quote:

I guess the 1,000 plus researchers researching the topic can now
change their field of research..


We're doing just fine where we are, thank you.  [8D]




Najakcharmer -> RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! (9/7/2006 8:29:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: evyy

more to the point, alligators are not crocodiles! any more then a billby is a rabit, croc's attack people, croc's kill people, croc's cannot be tamed, and cannot be trusted, they can be 'handled' but it dont matter how much you think you know what your doing, you dont risk a baby on it. he should be forgiven for it, everyone is allowed moments of stupidity, but that dosnt change the fact that it was stupid


In general, the two alligator species (sinensis and mississipiensis) are considered the most even tempered of crocodilians and the easiest to work with, but it's dangerous to make too many generalities.  An alligator is just as capable as any other crocodilian of getting unhappy or defensive or hungry, and many crocodiles can become quite human habituated and easy to work with, especially if they are deliberately conditioned for behavioral management as most zoos are currently doing.   It's just plain easier to behaviorally manage crocs than to do it physically.

Crocodilian brains are four times as neurally dense as mammalian brains, which translates to rather more brainpower than most people would think due to the relatively small size of the organ.  Their social structure and range of communicative vocalizations is remarkably complex, as is their ability to learn new and adaptive behaviors.  It would be fairly unwise to consider any dangerous wild animal to be truly "tame", or completely predictable in their behavior.  But you can get away with quite a bit when working around a well habituated and conditioned crocodilian of any species.  Your safety margin and the animal's tolerance will vary by species and by individual, and if a feeding response is triggered, feeding behavior *will* ensue even in a well human habituated crocodilian.  What triggers reptile feeding behavior can vary, but there are a few things that are pretty good bets for doing it.  Little wiggling bite sized prey items are fairly high on the list. 

It's feeding behavior more than anything else that is usually the risk factor when working around reptiles which are otherwise unlikely to be aggressive towards their keepers.  I would be very concerned that even in a "tame" (well habituated to human keepers) croc, feeding behavior could definitely be triggered by a temptingly bite sized prey item.  The croc has no way of knowing that the keeper isn't bringing in a tasty food treat, and no means of understanding that it's okay to eat a skinned nutria but not a "human pinky".

Humans are right on the edge of the appropriate prey size profile for large crocodilians, so it is true that crocs sometimes attack people.  It's also true that crocodilians get a bum rap a lot of the time because they are scavengers.  If someone drowns or otherwise ends up dead in the water, the local crocodilians aren't going to pass up the free meal, and the remains may be found as croc or gator leftovers.  At this point, determining the original cause of death can be a bit difficult, but the reptiles generally get the blame, and it's probably not warranted in all of these cases.






AAkasha -> RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! (9/7/2006 9:27:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip
Najakcharmer seems to be an expert on every subject, yet proved in
another thread she really knows very little.  She claimed the cause
of obesity is hard science, and she seemed to imply she has the
answer, that it is simply a matter of eating less, and exercising more.


Um....I think you may have some issues with reading comprehension.  Science is not the cause of *anything*.  Science is the dynamic process of using good tools and rational methods to collect data.   Science is not the end result of having all the answers, but the process of getting the answers. What we know about the universe is constantly changing, because the methods and the data we use are (and should be) constantly updated as we continue gathering more and better information. 

What I have actually stated is that hard science is applicable to the issue, and there are some specific items that are generally known to be factors in the biochemistry of calorie partitioning.  What you eat and how much energy you expend are critical factors, the baseline equation.  There are a great many other factors involved that significantly modify the equation.  Feel free to take a printout of this paragraph to any medical doctor or researcher in this field and see if any disagreement can be mustered.  Better yet, see if they can explain it to you in words you will understand.

I'm not posting my resume here for the obvious reasons, but you seem to have managed to get yourself in the middle of discussions in two specific areas that are in fact relevant to my work.  I certanly don't claim to know everything about everything, but this is one of those situations where it is a shame that I cannot point out why I do have reason to know whereof I speak on these particular subjects.   To those of you on this site who are in the know, I'm sure this has all been remarkably entertaining.  [;)]


quote:

I guess the 1,000 plus researchers researching the topic can now
change their field of research..


We're doing just fine where we are, thank you.  [8D]



I wish you could post your resume. I really do.

Akasha
(in the know, and laughing her ass off)






Najakcharmer -> RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! (9/7/2006 9:50:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NastyDaddy
I've lived all over Florida most of my life, hunted alligators and wild hogs in the everglades barefooted, had alligators as pets my entire youth after catching their little six inch long asses and raising them on coldcuts and hot dogs until they were big enough to eat raw chicken legs. Toted them in my shirt pocket as I rode my bike delivering newspapers. I've dressed out alligators and eaten alligator tail steaks all my life.


As I'm sure you already know, keeping gators as pets is currently illegal in Florida without very specific permits.  

Crocodilians are pretty tough buggers, but cold cuts and hot dogs as an exclusive diet leads to conditions such as steatitis and MBD (metabolic bone disease) aka secondary nutritional hyperparathyroidism.  Unsupplemented factory chicken with the skin left on is also not recommended.  If nothing else, the high fat diet leads to a keeper-unfriendly condition in captivity generally known as the shit slick, aka oil on the water.  Anyone who has ever had to clean up in a crocodilian enclosure where this type of diet is fed will know whereof I speak.  Anyone who hasn't isn't missing a damn thing and shouldn't hanker after the experience any.

Feed crocodilians whole prey if possible, please.  Formulated diets work reasonably okay too, and third choice (also the cheapest and usually the most feasible for big facilities with hundreds of animals) is chicken plus supplementation minus some of the skin and fat. 


quote:

There is no fucking way in hell ANY alligator can stand on it's hind legs, namely because the joints would never support the full weight as they swivel and get pushed out of their sockets. The legs only support weight when at a 90 degree angle (right angle) to their body, and the only other option is angled back parallel to the body for swimming... propelled by horizontal tail sweeps.


All crocodilians below a certain threshold of body weight can do something of an upright "stand" with their four legs under them and at nearly right angles to the body, as well as the usual belly-flopped crawl/drag.  The really big boys either can't do it or can't sustain it.  Some of the smaller, lighter animals (juveniles and even adults of some species) can "gallop" in this position, and it is a sight to behold.  The freshwater crocs of Australia and Cuban crocs are particularly known for their "high gallop".  None of this translates to an upright bipedal stance, at least not outside of old Japanese monster movies.  [8D]




Najakcharmer -> RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! (9/8/2006 12:57:39 AM)

Not sure how clear I was on describing crocodilian gaits.  When I say at right angles to the body, I don't mean that the animal is flat on the ground with its belly touching the ground and its legs sticking out or sweeping back. I mean the legs can be rotated and held stiffly directly under the body to support a smaller, lighter animal all the way off the ground.  You wouldn't think they could do it, but they can.  Nice pics and video at the link below, well worth a look.

http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/cnhc/cbd-faq-q4.htm

Video here: http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/natsci/herpetology/brittoncrocs/images/cj-highwalk1.mpg

Note that none of the crocodilians in these images is standing up on its tail or breathing radioactive fire.  [8D]




LadyNeets -> RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! (9/8/2006 2:18:16 AM)

Since Steve's passing there has been over $500.000 raise for His Wildlife Warriors and just today Here in Queensland Aust We had a You canr't see Me shirts and all the money raised will go to Help the Hospital that He was building soooo lets just say He did take risks and No lets just let Him Rest In Peace and Help turn the Hevens into His Own Wildlife park.

Lady Neets





MisPandora -> RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! (9/8/2006 2:30:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnSteed1967

Hell no one else has died of a stingray attack since 1945!



But people do die from stupidity every day.




LadyEllen -> RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! (9/8/2006 5:58:01 AM)

"Crikey mate - these little fellas are about the most dangerous animals in the world; CM posters getting their dander up that is!"

How can a discussion of such a genuinely good bloke as Steve Irwin, turn into such an "incendiary topic"? Surely our first thoughts should be on the loss of such an icon for the world, (people, fauna and flora included) and the loss of a husband and father, even if this thread is about how much risk he did/nt take, how stupid it did/nt appear to us outsiders etc - and we could out of respect for him and his work, not descend into personal argument rather than reasonable discussion?

I'm with Mod 11 - calm down folks! (but then, I did used to sit at the front of the class and bring an apple into school every day)
E




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