RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk!

RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! (Full Version)

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WhipTheHip -> RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! (9/8/2006 6:24:03 AM)
There is picture of an alligator standing on its hind legs and tail begging for food.. The alligator I fed stood on its hind legs and tail.

WhipTheHip -> RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! (9/8/2006 6:47:39 AM)
> The gator stood up on its hind legs like Godzilla? Er, their morphology doesn't > quite support that. They can raise themselves up from the water a ways, but it's > not exactly a stand. Alligators can stand on dry land. Or more precisely said, they can sit-up straight balancing themselves on their tail and hind legs. In this position, their back legs are not supporting the full weight of their body. Most of their weight is being supported by their tail. My gator was over ten-feet from the front of its snout to the tip of its tail. It always looked like it was grinning. It maintained this position for just a second. I don't know if he could have done so for longer, because I immediately moved away from him toward the water, and he followed me. I saw a picture of a tame, small four-foot alligator doing this in a book. I wouldn't have know that a large ten-foot alligator could do this except for the fact I saw it with my own eyes. I went to a fish store and bought several big fish. I fed the gator one fish out of my hand. He was in the water. I went to get another piece of fish, and as I was approaching the water, he came out of the water. I had feed him hundreds of times before out of my hand while he was in the water, but he had never come out of the water. I didn't want to feed him out of the water because I feared they would kill him, if he ever did this with anyone else. He walked on all fours right up to where I was standing, and nearly sat straight up on his tail and hind legs. He would not have been able to walk like this. At first I was scared because I didn't realize what he was doing. But it quickly became evident he was begging for the fish. I quickly moved away from him and walked to the water's edge. He returned to the water, and I gave him the fish in the manner that I was accostomed to doing. He never came out of the water again. It all happened very fast, and after it happened, I couldn't believe that it actually happened, but it did.

Najakcharmer -> RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! (9/8/2006 11:25:05 AM)
Um, I'd really like to see this picture. So would a lot of people I know who work in the field of crocodilian research. You'd make yourself famous at the next CAG meeting if you could show this picture, but if the animal in the pic is also breathing radioactive fire it won't count. LOL

NastyDaddy -> RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! (9/8/2006 5:48:11 PM)
Here's a before picture of a well-fed crocodile "getting ready" to sit on it's ass and beg for dessert: http://www.berryburger.com/funstuff_45.htm Here's the tail sitter giant "lunging" after what was dangled and what he thought was to be his dessert: http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Steve-Irwin-baby-concerns-prompt-law-change/2005/02/23/1109046983142.html Note the rear legs are used to "spring" or "propel" the lumbering giant towards the anticipated menu item... The hind legs are not long enough to form a tripod with the fulcrum of the tail, note that close to a third of the leg is foot... webbed foot ending in clawnails.... perfect for standing tip-toed upon, and well suited for crocodile dancing and crocodile golf. Should the half of the lumbering giant's body known as the tail even be capable of bending back to form a tripod, the dancing croc would need stilts for his squatty botty hind legs to sit upright. Notwithstanding alternate reality and self invented physics, should the lumbering creature sit straight up... his ass would be broken like your back would be if you laid on your side and bent both legs straight up... major gator sized ouch! Let's not even talk about "bullfrog upright" or frogs having wings to prevent bumping their asses when they jump... rribbitt! Hunting out of rodeo season and keeping gators as pets is illegal today yes, but tell that to boys growing up in south Florida. Ever "grunted up" a gator? [;)]

Najakcharmer -> RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! (9/8/2006 6:35:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NastyDaddy Hunting out of rodeo season and keeping gators as pets is illegal today yes, but tell that to boys growing up in south Florida. Ever "grunted up" a gator? [;)] I will admit to speaking fluent crocodilian. ;) As NastyDaddy mentioned, the "jump up" stance is not physically sustainable due to the biomechanics of how these guys are put together. I have some even more striking pics of adult Cuban crocodiles with their hind legs completely off the ground when jumping after food that a handler is holding up on Pilstrom tongs. If you were watching it in person or even on video, it would be apparant that while crocs can lunge upward when sufficiently motivated, gravity has the expected result and they come right back down again. You have to be a fast click with the camera to catch the moment. The people who may mistakenly believe that a crocodilian can stand up like that to "sit up and beg" may have seen those dramatic still pictures of a croc in mid-jump. Viewed from that perspective, I guess I can see how that belief might have gotten started. A croc can get nearly vertical, especially if it's a smaller, streamlined animal with good supporting musculature like a Cuban croc. An alligator cannot achieve nearly as impressive an angle as they're just not built for speed like their more streamlined cousins. Compared to some of the other crocodilians, they're pretty ponderous and clunky. One of the reasons they're substantially more pleasant to work with, since they don't go all velociraptor on your ass like Cubans do. Cuban crocs are the shit, though. The neonates and small juveniles can just about levitate, and the adults can vault fences that would keep any other species penned. They're colloquially known as "kangaroo crocs" for the obvious reason, and if you get a good look at their hind legs, you'll see a degree of development that doesn't exist in any other crocodilian. Really nifty animals.

WhipTheHip -> RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! (9/8/2006 7:02:11 PM)
You will find a picture of an alligator balancing on its hind legs and tail in the book below. My alligator assumed the exact same posture for roughly a second. Dick Bothwell, The Great Outdoors Book Of Alligators And Other Crocodilia, (St. Petersburg, Florida: Great Outdoors Publishing Co., 1962)

Najakcharmer -> RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! (9/8/2006 9:32:48 PM)
It's not balancing and it's not sitting. It's lunging and falling. The croc is never in that position for more than a split second because gravity does not permit. There is no counterbalance other than the force of the leap. The tail doesn't work that way. Look at this sequence closely: http://www.villagephotos.com/pubbrowse.asp?folder_id=1746476 This species (C. rhombifer) has the largest and best developed hind legs of any croc, and is arguably the most powerfully athletic species, capable of physical feats that other crocodilians cannot duplicate. They're far more agile than alligators, which are definitely on the low end of the crocodilian athletic achievement scale. They still can't sustain what you see here for any longer than it takes for gravity to counteract the force of their initial jump. This behavior was duplicated some really unreasonable number of times in order to get these shots, which required some split second timing with the camera. These athletic feats by an adult crocodilian, even a small one like this, are considered to be remarkably impressive. What you are seeing in this sequence is definitely on the extreme end of what crocodilians can physically do. I imagine that some folks look at photos like these and say, "See, crocodilians DO sit up and walk or stand on their hind legs", but the photo doesn't show the action that is going on before and after the shot. If I tossed a brick in the air and took a photo that had it hovering in midair, this would not be evidence that a brick could levitate. Crocs can't sit up and beg, either. They can aim themselves like a toothy missile and jump at the food with varying degrees of launch power depending on their body weight. It's not flying, it's not walking and it's not sitting. Basically it's jumping and falling. In these circumstances, the camera essentially lies. You kinda have to be there, or at least be seeing a video rather than a still image.

Lordandmaster -> RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! (9/8/2006 9:37:09 PM)
Laugh. If you run film at twice the normal speed, that doesn't mean a man can run the 100-meter dash in 5 seconds... If you take a picture of me holding a pencil and show it through a slide projector backwards, that doesn't mean I'm left-handed... Ummm...I've run out of ideas. It's late. Ohh, I thought of one: If you take a picture of Earth from the moon, that doesn't mean the planet is the size of a swallow egg... quote: ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer If I tossed a brick in the air and took a photo that had it hovering in midair, this would not be evidence that a brick could levitate.

Najakcharmer -> RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! (9/8/2006 9:58:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip Alligators can stand on dry land. Or more precisely said, they can sit-up straight balancing themselves on their tail and hind legs. In this position, their back legs are not supporting the full weight of their body. Most of their weight is being supported by their tail. I have seen crocodilians assuming variations on the position shown here a not inconsequential number of times. I find it puzzling that anyone who has seen it in person or even on a video, as opposed to a trophy photo of the coolest looking split second of the jump, could imagine that any weight is being supported by the tail. The trophy photos sure do look neat, but they can perhaps be a little misleading. The animal lunges, its body goes more or less upwards, and then it falls down and goes floppity on the ground. The tail goes floppity too. No support is possible from that quarter. No sitting up and begging, no standing in that position. The only thing that supports the full weight of their body while they are up in the air is the force of their takeoff, which is rapidly countered by gravity. Perhaps you saw a high walk culminating in a high head posture, or a brief lunge from the water that was semi-supported by soft mud. But if a 10' American alligator was doing the high walk and posture, that would be an unusually slender and gracile animal for its length and species.

wingie -> RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! (9/9/2006 6:14:25 AM)
Actually, one of the last reported deaths from Stingrays, aside from Steve, was in 1988, in almost identical circumstances. I grew up, and live in QLD, and am educated enough to know the dangers of sea, land. The dangers are less than ppl percieve, esp if you respect and understand how it is. Respectfully, wing P.S. In case anyone needs facts on above, i have supplied a link.. http://www.abc.net.au/melbourne/stories/s1735146.htm?backyard R.I.P Steve.

IronBear -> RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! (9/9/2006 6:38:25 AM)
From the Beenleigh Grizzly aka Beenleigh Dunny Door Kicking in Emu, thank you wingie for that post... You rock lass.

WhipTheHip -> RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! (9/9/2006 10:26:09 AM)
Najakcharmer, please pay attention. In the photo in the book I listed is an alligator that is clearly sitting-up straight, balancing on his tail, and begging for food. The gator is not lunging. It is virtually stationary. It is clear from the photo, that the gator could not walk or move in this position.

cuddleheart50 -> RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! (9/9/2006 10:40:38 AM)
Why does it matter if an alligator is standing on its hind legs or not?

Lordandmaster -> RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! (9/9/2006 10:49:10 AM)
Because, by his perverted logic, that would prove that Najakcharmer doesn't know what she's talking about, which would mean that everything else she's said doesn't hold water either, which would mean that everything he has said must be true. Right?

cuddleheart50 -> RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! (9/9/2006 11:03:07 AM)
It sounds like she knows what shes talking about to me, she is very smart.

NastyDaddy -> RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! (9/9/2006 11:24:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cuddleheart50 It sounds like she knows what shes talking about to me, she is very smart. It's simply a matter of morphing what is obviously a straight line into a shorter line that now has two opposing right angles, one towards each remaining straight end... all the while rotating the line's orientation by a factor of ninety degrees, flipping it vertical.... all must occur in order to complete the action undergoing discussion. A side debate is the weight bearing capability of various contorted joints and non-joints during and particularly while the morphing action is complete... that's all.

cuddleheart50 -> RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! (9/9/2006 11:28:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NastyDaddy quote: ORIGINAL: cuddleheart50 It sounds like she knows what shes talking about to me, she is very smart. It's simply a matter of morphing what is obviously a straight line into a shorter line that now has two opposing right angles, one towards each remaining straight end... all the while rotating the line's orientation by a factor of ninety degrees, flipping it vertical.... all must occur in order to complete the action undergoing discussion. A side debate is the weight bearing capability of various contorted joints and non-joints during and particularly while the morphing action is complete... that's all. Huh????

WhipTheHip -> RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! (9/9/2006 2:58:35 PM)
NastyDaddy is really just nasty. He is not my official interpreter. Don't believe his allegations. He just likes blowing a lot of smoke out his ass.

NastyDaddy -> RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! (9/9/2006 3:48:06 PM)
[Awaiting Approval]

Najakcharmer -> RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! (9/9/2006 5:04:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip Najakcharmer, please pay attention. In the photo in the book I listed is an alligator that is clearly sitting-up straight, balancing on his tail, and begging for food. The gator is not lunging. It is virtually stationary. It is clear from the photo, that the gator could not walk or move in this position. And I repeat, ain't happening without some outside assistance to support the animal in a position it can't physically support itself in. The gator cannot be stationary in this position unless someone or something is supporting it. A still photo of a crocodilian jump stance or tail walk up from the water is comparable to a picture of a brick in flight, and it can be highly misleading. The book you cited from 1962 is not exactly one of the classics of crocodilian biology, and there's a whole lot of inaccurate garbage about crocs on the popular market and in the popular media. How do I know this? Because I've worked on a number of them. [:-] I do not claim to be infallibly knowledgeable about everything. But on the specific subject of the biomechanics, behavior and physiology of crocodilians (among other critters) from both a practical and technical perspective, I'd have to say that I'm reasonably clueful. I am not blowing smoke out my ass when I state uncategorically that crocodilians cannot under any circumstances balance themselves under their own power with no outside support or assistance on hind legs and tail. I've done my best to explain what you may have seen both in person and in this photo, and provided additional photos of this stance with an explanation of how the biomechanics actually work. I can't say for certain what you saw, but I can say that any still photo of an upright crocodilian stance is missing an important element called "gravity". In answer to another poster who asked why it matters, it probably doesn't to the average person. But I've spent a good percentage of my life and my passion attempting to dispel foolish and sometimes potentially harmful myths about wild animals. I am very much dedicated both professionally and personally to the dissemination of good science and real facts, especially in this particular field. I understand that no one else cares. But I definitely do. I am no good at inspiring people to care along with me. I'm just a boring research geek, and nobody is going to care about the stuff I think is incredibly nifty about these animals. That's what Steve Irwin did best. Most of us on the academic end were very angry at him for dumbing down science to sound bytes, occasionally omitting, exaggerating or outright fudging the facts and using unnecessarily showy, stressful or daredevil handling techniques that we feel are unprofessional and inappropriate. Our opinions haven't changed one bit on that score. But he reached more people in a single show and made them care along with him than most of us will do in a lifetime of working with the same animals. That is something we cannot fail to acknowledge and appreciate. RIP, mate. You'll be missed.

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