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RE: Do we believe change is not possible? - 9/7/2006 9:59:36 AM   
Lashra


Posts: 4900
Joined: 2/9/2006
Status: offline 		I believe people CAN change IF they want to. That is the core, the deep desire to want to change. If a person doesn't want to change they will not, not matter how much someone else may wish them too. If that is the case in these relationships then my advice is IF you cannot live with that person IF they are unwilling to change either you change yourself, which could make you miserable in itself OR you move on. Life is just too short to be miserable.

~Lashra


_____________________________

“We can never judge the lives of others, because each person knows only their own pain and renunciation. It's one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path.”






(in reply to TNstepsout)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Do we believe change is not possible? - 9/7/2006 10:00:37 AM   
Owned1


Posts: 847
Joined: 7/6/2005
From: Toronto, Ontario
Status: offline 		What if we exchanged the word in your statement from change to grow?

Yes we are all hardwired to some degree in regard to certain traits and personalities, however over time as we age we should also grow.  (and I am not starting another overweight whatevers)

As we become more experienced and find what we need I believe we do change.  We mature, refine ourselves and understand what it is that truly makes us happy and content.

If 20 years ago my present day self and given my previous self a glimpse into where I am today my previous self would have laughed until she fell on the floor.  I never would have thought or anticipated where I would be today in my self exploration and relationship, and I mean NO friggin way!!

As LA said an individual usually will not change for another person.  I agree it is a growth from within.  It is to some degree a skill set we learn.

As a result of the self exploration and soul searching I have changed big time, I am a very different person now that I was 20 years ago.

Owned

_____________________________

~~in His Chains i am free~~

(in reply to TNstepsout)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Do we believe change is not possible? - 9/7/2006 10:06:26 AM   
marieToo


Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
Status: offline 		General Reply to the OP :

I think people adjust, more than they actually change. 

Just dont ask me to explain it.

marie.

(in reply to justheather)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Do we believe change is not possible? - 9/7/2006 10:07:09 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		It's a complicated question.  People do change--in many ways, I'm not the same person I was five years ago, and wouldn't make the same decisions--but that doesn't mean people always can or will change, and they certainly can't be forcibly changed by someone who wants to turn them into something they aren't.  So generally I think it's a very bad idea to go into a relationship, for example, with the idea that you'll change or the other person will change and that very big fat red flag waving in your face will just go away over time.  That kind of change doesn't happen.  If it appears to happen, it's generally because one person is suppressing something basic about himself or herself, and in those situations the chickens usually come home to roost, sometime in the future.

Most personal change happens as a result of direct personal experience.  You can change because you personally decide that you want to change something about yourself--your appearance, your habits, whatever--and although that kind of change isn't easy to bring about, it certainly happens all the time.  Then there is change in response to unexpected experiences.  Something happens, that you DIRECTLY experience, that makes you question a few things you've always held dear, or always assumed to be true without pondering them seriously, and as a result you can be a changed person.

But there are things that I don't think you can ever change.  I don't really think you can change your sexual orientation.  You can discover things about yourself that you never knew, or never really wanted to know, or always repressed, but I've noticed that if someone feels sexually dominant or submissive at some point in their life, they are pretty much never going to be satisfied with a vanilla life.  I don't think homosexuals ever morph into heterosexuals.

< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 9/7/2006 10:08:49 AM >

(in reply to justheather)
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RE: Do we believe change is not possible? - 9/7/2006 10:11:43 AM   
justheather


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Joined: 10/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

General Reply to the OP :

I think people adjust, more than they actually change. 

Just dont ask me to explain it.

marie.


Marie - do you mean "adjust" as in "fine tune" or "adjust" as in "shift to accomodate"?

_____________________________

I want the scissors to be sharp
And the table perfectly level
When you cut me out of my life
And paste me in that book you always carry.
-Billy Collins

(in reply to marieToo)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Do we believe change is not possible? - 9/7/2006 10:23:48 AM   
justheather


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Joined: 10/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

It's a complicated question. 

Thank you for acknowledging that. I thought perhaps I was just being obtuse.

quote:

  So generally I think it's a very bad idea to go into a relationship, for example, with the idea that you'll change or the other person will change and that very big fat red flag waving in your face will just go away over time.  That kind of change doesn't happen.

I agree. Im not so much talking about ignoring red flags as I am about giving up on a relationship because of issues that might not be issues if one party or the other was willing to be open to a different orientation toward the issue at hand than he or she is used to. This would require work, but would offer the possibility of great benefit as well.

quote:

and in those situations the chickens usually come home to roost, sometime in the future.


You know I love a good chicken metaphor.

quote:

Most personal change happens as a result of direct personal experience.  You can change because you personally decide that you want to change something about yourself--your appearance, your habits, whatever--and although that kind of change isn't easy to bring about, it certainly happens all the time.  Then there is change in response to unexpected experiences.  Something happens, that you DIRECTLY experience, that makes you question a few things you've always held dear, or always assumed to be true without pondering them seriously, and as a result you can be a changed person.


The second type of change you talk about is more the type Im referring to. It seems like we accept these opportunities when they come to us as great big earth-shattering events, but Im wondering about the times when we might be able to choose to create an opportunity or are listening closely for one as opposed to having one thrust upon
us in a manner we can not ignore.

quote:

I've noticed that if someone feels sexually dominant or submissive at some point in their life, they are pretty much never going to be satisfied with a vanilla life.

I know of doms who have relayed that their former subs have reported that they are "over" BDSM or that whatever it was they were seeking to access through the exercise of power control, they felt they had sufficiently explored. I personally do not anticipate being fulfilled in a relationship where there is no overt power exchange, but as a wise person recently reminded me "you can't tell the future".


_____________________________

I want the scissors to be sharp
And the table perfectly level
When you cut me out of my life
And paste me in that book you always carry.
-Billy Collins

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Do we believe change is not possible? - 9/7/2006 10:49:29 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I do think people change, in fact I know they do.

Here is my formula for sticking it out with someone.

Person does action "A". It bugs me but I can live with it.

Person does action "A". It bugs me but I cannot live with it.

Solution: Ask person if they will stop bugging you by stopping action"A". If they can't or won't you may have to leave.

We cannot change others, they can only change themselves, and if what they do or do not do is unacceptable to you then you have to decide whether you can live with that and not count on them changing... This is something I dealt with in my first marriage when I was married to a wife beating drug addict that screwed around on me. I had to decide if I could change him and if I couldn't was the relationship worth living with. My personal answer was "No". Others may differ

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to justheather)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Do we believe change is not possible? - 9/7/2006 10:52:22 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		Found some possibly applicable Kahlil Gibran quotatons. Hope some enjoy.

"It is wrong to believe that love comes from long compatibility and perservering courship. Love is the off-spring of spiritual affinity, and unless the affinity is created in a moment, it will not be created for years, or even generations".

I almost want to make that above quote say "each" moment re: The second line, because it almost sounds like he bellieves in "love at first sight". And also, it says to me: Are you dealing with a generally loving person? (but that's prejudiced of me). UhOh. There's that "L" word again. Well, Kahlil GiBran was a spiritual and visionary poet, so I guess I understand. Make that potential for deep caring at first sight, then, for some. *But I agree with heather. I think he is referring to just how people can envision or perceive those they partner with on an ongoing basis. I think it can sound idealistic, or even to some maybe perfectionistic, but I also still think it's true.

and another one is:

"Strange that we all defend our wrongs with more vigor than our rights".

Hmmm.  It is strange, I think.  People vehemently defending their "rights", people upset about something wrong? Well actually, that sounds like it's pretty historically enduring, as a general human phenomena, now that I think about it.



- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/7/2006 11:47:33 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to justheather)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Do we believe change is not possible? - 9/7/2006 11:03:39 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: justheather
The second type of change you talk about is more the type Im referring to. It seems like we accept these opportunities when they come to us as great big earth-shattering events, but Im wondering about the times when we might be able to choose to create an opportunity or are listening closely for one as opposed to having one thrust upon
us in a manner we can not ignore.

Yeah I'd like the universe to stop bonking me on the head with the same lesson, too.  But until I wake my ass up and start being aware and really LEARNING the lesson and being that way, it's unfortunately what it resorts to.

Plus, we're so invested in outcomes, and so desparate to prove ourselves, it's REALLY hard to just go with the flow and accept sometimes.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to justheather)
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RE: Do we believe change is not possible? - 9/7/2006 11:14:00 AM   
mstrjx


Posts: 2045
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		When I mentioned 'change' in that particular thread, I don't think I was misinterpreted, but I'll cover this here.

When we first enter the Lifestyle, or whatever we call it, we might not see the big picture.  We might not know what interests us or not.

You begin, you get exposed to some things, you think of new things that interest you.  You change.  You aren't being asked or forced to change.  Your mind and emotions are expanding.  It's not about the mud you're being dragged through.

This goes for Doms and subs alike.

Jeff

_____________________________

Know thyself. It's the best gift you can ever give yourself.

(in reply to justheather)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Do we believe change is not possible? - 9/7/2006 11:27:14 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		good point, I think, mstrjx. I am thinking too, that posssibly due to that sometimes, (not all the time, of course) some people might have partners that they feel "forced" to change for, due to a lack of affinity with eachother in some nature (or even the basic nature) of their particular relationship. I agree that it doesn't pay to make it all about "whose fault" that is, but instead see it as an opportunity for growth, or to attempt "re-framing" possibly mis-understood expectations and seee if it's more fuilfilling that way. Not everyone is looking for a LTR. Some are, some aren't. Some don't know, some do know, or are are simply not sure, and waiting to see "what develops".


- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/7/2006 12:14:38 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to mstrjx)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Do we believe change is not possible? - 9/7/2006 11:53:53 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: justheather

It seems like we accept these opportunities when they come to us as great big earth-shattering events, but Im wondering about the times when we might be able to choose to create an opportunity or are listening closely for one as opposed to having one thrust upon
us in a manner we can not ignore.

  I really liked this heather. I do think some people probably are more growth-oriented than others. How they got that way is anybody's guess, I think. But I do think two (or more) people can be inspired by eachother to want to grow (but like Lashra's remark kind of insinuated, they have to maybe want to be inspired by another person first (and I am not attaching a judgment to wanting to be inspired to any particular person,or not. Because I think this question is situationally specific). But I think your remark does tie-into the first Kahlil Gibran quote:

"It is wrong to believe that love comes from long compatibility and persevering courtship. Love is the off-spring of spiritual affinity, and unless the affinity is realized in a moment, it will not be created for years, or even generations." - Kahlil Gibran

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/7/2006 12:54:01 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to justheather)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Do we believe change is not possible? - 9/7/2006 12:57:02 PM   
justheather


Posts: 1532
Joined: 10/4/2005
Status: offline 		Susan, thank you for such a lovely quote and your insightful comments.

"The moment" is such a powerful concept in many ways. I can see how applying the concept of the moment and being present in the moment and loving one's partner in the moment regardless of circumstances or emotions or fears could be the way to remain connected to that person and make it through difficult times. Moment to moment to moment, it is really all we have, isnt it. A series of "this moment(s)".

Kind of off-topic, but also kind of related -- There is a certain act, if you will, that my dom has had me perform which in the past left me feeling very claustrophobic, frightened and anxious. In my head, I would go off to this place of awfulization where I wondered "Oh my god how long can I do this?????" because I had no idea how long he would require it of me. I expressed this to my dom and he urged me to think in terms not of "Can I do this for _________ long", but rather "Can I do this for this moment, right now?" Likewise, I think there are times when we have to choose in that moment to focus on nothing else but the moment and choose in that moment to act in love and openness and not in fear (fear of being hurt, fear that things "arent fair", fear that I'm giving up some kind of "right"...)
Again it all goes back to choosing to orient yourself to a situation in a way that is open to change (or growth).

_____________________________

I want the scissors to be sharp
And the table perfectly level
When you cut me out of my life
And paste me in that book you always carry.
-Billy Collins

(in reply to SusanofO)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Do we believe change is not possible? - 9/7/2006 1:03:27 PM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		justheather: You're welcome. I agree with you. As I heard someone else say once, you're playing my song. When I think of cherished memories I have of anyone I' think I've loved, I remember loving moments, or what I've loved or appreciated about the person. What they taught me, what made them unique to me, what I learned from them, and sometimes, what I think they might have learned from me, too. Maybe all strung together, like beads on a necklace. The necklace never breaks and the beads don't fall off, in the moment I'm remembering them. (that's just an analogy too, not necessarily a submissive one).

In some cases, perhaps extreme cases, I know people do choose to leave a significantly committed relationship that they've deemed truly harmful to them. That can take some courage, too, I think. - Susan  

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/7/2006 1:24:15 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to justheather)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Do we believe change is not possible? - 9/7/2006 1:07:04 PM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: justheather

It struck me this morning as I was reading the advice given by some of our members in various threads, that it seems to be the opinion of some people here, if not many, that people can not change. When people post questions about compatability in one form or another, often times the answer given by more than a few people is "If this person is not compatible with regard to XYZ, the answer is simply 'move on'".

I have heard often times throughout my life the adage "People don't change." Usually I hear this when there is a discussion among women about why a particular relationship failed. While I agree that "People don't magically change just because you offer them love and you want them to change" I do believe that people are capable of change.

How many of us are on a spiritual path that involves self-exploration and subsequent growth? Is growth not change? And are relationship "issues" not also opportunities for people to go inside, look at themselves honestly, come to realizations and move toward change?

I believe that by meditating on positive thoughts, I can change my attitude. I believe that by choosing to process experiences in a different way, I can create change in the way I respond emotionally to situations. I believe change is possible. One of the reasons I love my relationship with my boyfriend is that he challenges me to see things in new ways and, if I come upon a new way of thinking that works better for me than the way Im doing it presently, to integrate those ways into my own thought patterns. He loves me as I am, but still encourages me to grow and yes, I believe even to change.

Is it somehow a disservice to one party (I guess it would usually be the sub) to expect or suggest that he or she change something for the sake of the relationship if that change is inevitably going to be one that improves his or her self-awareness and results in personal growth? For me, that is a huge part of what draws me to this type of relationship to begin with. We talk about training and behavior modification of the slave, but yet when the submissive partner in a relationship expresses that "a need is not being met" so many people say "leave the relationship". Are we not doing them a disservice by offering this kind of broad, sweeping advice?

Or, are we setting them up for failure by suggesting that he or she can change and find a way to be happy under the present conditions?


I do believe that people can change.  Like many here though, I believe that the person has to truly want to change.  I use the word 'truly' because there are  many people that say they really  'want' to change things about themselves but somehow end up never doing so.  Unless you are willing to do the work...really know and accept that this is a change you want, look within at yourself honestly, have a clear focus on what aspect of you it is that you want to change, decide what course of action is most likely to be effective, seek help to make that course of action work, and don't be ready to throw your hands up at the first failure (if there is one)...then the change you say you seek won't happen.

As to whether or not someone should be advised to leave a relationship because of a stated area of incompatibility... I say you have to look at it from the person's perspective and knowledge gleaned from an honest appraisal of them.  Those that advised her to look within and decide whether or not she could change to meet her dominant's way in regards to this area were...in my mind...the ones giving her the right advice.  You have to go within first...as I stated in my first paragraph.  Shrugging your shoulders and just accepting it without any introspection and changing of her needs will only lead to heartache.  Expecting him to change because she needs this is unreasonable.  If she has looked within and does not want to change because she truly feels this is one of her needs, then it should be discussed with her dominant but again, expecting him to change his ways to accomodate her need is unrealistic...and unfair.  If she does not/ cannot change her need, why would she have a right to expect it of him?

As someone else noted, if I could bring my 15 year ago self to the present day so I could meet myself now, there are a lot of changes about me that I yearned to make then and I would be happy with that.  There are also some changes I have made that would sadden that self from 15 years ago.  More honest and truthful within a relationship, learning this from the devastation of my divorce and consequences of my own actions within that marriage?  Yes.  More wary and cautious and a bit roughed up from wear and tear on the heart and body after becoming more honest and truthful about what I want and will/will not put up with and determined to stick by it?  Yes.

(in reply to justheather)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Do we believe change is not possible? - 9/7/2006 1:09:45 PM   
justheather


Posts: 1532
Joined: 10/4/2005
Status: offline
Susan, yes, of course, there are relationships that are "bad". I guess in my thoughts about the subject Im assuming that the relationship is a healthy one presented with some challenges, not something like what was described by juliaoceania.

And please understand, Ive left relationships. I know what healthy boundaries are. I am not saying a person should hang on to a bad situation and try to somehow transcend perpetual chaos, or that they should be miserable for the sake of self-exploration and growth. My offspring's father may very well have been the long lost twin brother of julia's ex. And, well, he's now my ex.

_____________________________

I want the scissors to be sharp
And the table perfectly level
When you cut me out of my life
And paste me in that book you always carry.
-Billy Collins

(in reply to SusanofO)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Do we believe change is not possible? - 9/7/2006 1:19:03 PM   
gentlethistle


Posts: 186
Joined: 10/28/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
Change can happen in general.  It just rarely ever happens because someone ELSE thinks it should. 


How many dominants does it take to change a light bulb?
One.  But the light bulb has to really want to change.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Do we believe change is not possible? - 9/7/2006 1:22:16 PM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		justheather: I know that's not what you were saying. I work on week-ends at a shelter as a volunteer, so I see people in abusive relationships. And I was in a relationship for 15 years that had reached a definite end-point after 5 of those years, probably, in terms of spiritual affinity (but not completely). This topic made sense to me to want to read. One reason I was so glad I tuned into this thread this morning. It really helped me clarify some of my thoughts.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/7/2006 1:56:25 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to justheather)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Do we believe change is not possible? - 9/7/2006 1:39:32 PM   
spankablecyn


Posts: 16
Joined: 1/1/2005
From: Brampton, Ontario
Status: offline 		I think that someones personality does not change but likes and dislikes can change

_____________________________

Respectfully,
cyn
Driving the grammatically correct insane,one posting at a time.

(in reply to justheather)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Do we believe change is not possible? - 9/7/2006 1:59:01 PM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline 		Change is dependent on a few things.

The desire to change.
The opportunity to change.
The guidance in how to change.
The ability to change.

Our sexuality, our orientation, may not be something we can change. We might be able to learn techniques or how to express ourselves but if we're straight or gay, top or bottom, vanilla or kinky, poly or monogamous, that might not be changeable. Many people are bi or swith or experimental but that isn't them changing so much as them just expanding on what they desire all ready.

That's my opinion.



_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to justheather)
Profile   Post #: 40
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