Do we believe change is not possible?

Do we believe change is not possible? (Full Version)

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justheather -> Do we believe change is not possible? (9/7/2006 8:38:27 AM)
It struck me this morning as I was reading the advice given by some of our members in various threads, that it seems to be the opinion of some people here, if not many, that people can not change. When people post questions about compatability in one form or another, often times the answer given by more than a few people is "If this person is not compatible with regard to XYZ, the answer is simply 'move on'". I have heard often times throughout my life the adage "People don't change." Usually I hear this when there is a discussion among women about why a particular relationship failed. While I agree that "People don't magically change just because you offer them love and you want them to change" I do believe that people are capable of change. How many of us are on a spiritual path that involves self-exploration and subsequent growth? Is growth not change? And are relationship "issues" not also opportunities for people to go inside, look at themselves honestly, come to realizations and move toward change? I believe that by meditating on positive thoughts, I can change my attitude. I believe that by choosing to process experiences in a different way, I can create change in the way I respond emotionally to situations. I believe change is possible. One of the reasons I love my relationship with my boyfriend is that he challenges me to see things in new ways and, if I come upon a new way of thinking that works better for me than the way Im doing it presently, to integrate those ways into my own thought patterns. He loves me as I am, but still encourages me to grow and yes, I believe even to change. Is it somehow a disservice to one party (I guess it would usually be the sub) to expect or suggest that he or she change something for the sake of the relationship if that change is inevitably going to be one that improves his or her self-awareness and results in personal growth? For me, that is a huge part of what draws me to this type of relationship to begin with. We talk about training and behavior modification of the slave, but yet when the submissive partner in a relationship expresses that "a need is not being met" so many people say "leave the relationship". Are we not doing them a disservice by offering this kind of broad, sweeping advice? Or, are we setting them up for failure by suggesting that he or she can change and find a way to be happy under the present conditions?

knees2you -> RE: Do we believe change is not possible? (9/7/2006 8:46:34 AM)
*I've changed in alot of ways.* *For the better I might say!* *Was it hard? Yes in some ways.* *But it was for the best!* quote: *"Change in a person is Great, but so is dollars."* *Ant, & LilBecque[sm=news.gif][sm=idea.gif][sm=news.gif]*

LadyEllen -> RE: Do we believe change is not possible? (9/7/2006 8:48:31 AM)
I believe we all have to change in some way or another to accomodate to the other person in a LTR of whatever sort. Those with whom we form a LTR are those with whom we have to accomodate to a degree which is acceptable to us - if the degree of change we have to make is unacceptable then we move on and the relationship ends. Although I'm eminently wonderful (and modest) the way I am, even as the dominant party in a relationship I would still change a little for the right person, without feeling that I had abandoned who I am. As for the broader question of whether we change - of course we do. Our priorities change as we get older for one, and so our behaviour changes in line with those priorities. Having said that though, many aspects of our being are pretty well hard wired and less malleable. E

spankmepink11 -> RE: Do we believe change is not possible? (9/7/2006 8:55:07 AM)
Heather, thats such an interesting point, and one that i've thought about a lot over the years. I believe that change is possible to a point. But the change has to come from somewhere within. No one can change any other person, the best they can do, is offer guidance, support, alternatives, and maybe even motivation, the rest is up to to the individual to enact those changes. just my $.02 (got change of a dollar?...ha ha) i know...corny...but i sure crack me up

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Do we believe change is not possible? (9/7/2006 9:00:25 AM)
Change can happen in general. It just rarely ever happens because someone ELSE thinks it should. It just rarely happens because someone is disturbed by it. It also happens over years usually. And few people have enough self awareness, communication skills and discipline to make it work. And there are some things that either can't be changed, or isn't worth the energy to make change.

justheather -> RE: Do we believe change is not possible? (9/7/2006 9:02:27 AM)
But could many of the things we tend to accept as "hard wired" also be changed with effort and sacrifice and commitment? And where is the line drawn between "being myself" and being willing to change? I guess that was really what I was getting at... not so much a cut and dry answer as to whether or not people change but are we open to the idea of change as readily as we are to the idea that a person "just wasnt right for us" when the change we would have to make involves some hard work and perhaps to a vanilla world would seem like a giving up of a part of oneself (and not in a good way) whereas the ultimate result could really be some amazing growth. I don't have the answer...and honestly the more I think about it the more nuances I see and the more questions pop up... I guess Im interested in other people's ideas about personal growth, change and submission.

darkinshadows -> RE: Do we believe change is not possible? (9/7/2006 9:02:38 AM)
A person can change - but they have to want to. No matter what their partner wants or what others think, change only happens when its personal. No more no less - nor should it be any different. Peace and Rapture

raiken -> RE: Do we believe change is not possible? (9/7/2006 9:04:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: justheather It struck me this morning as I was reading the advice given by some of our members in various threads, that it seems to be the opinion of some people here, if not many, that people can not change. When people post questions about compatability in one form or another, often times the answer given by more than a few people is "If this person is not compatible with regard to XYZ, the answer is simply 'move on'". This answer is pretty much valid, for most of the time, we are only given a "part" of the situation, one view, and one person's subjective perspective. I have heard often times throughout my life the adage "People don't change." Usually I hear this when there is a discussion among women about why a particular relationship failed. While I agree that "People don't magically change just because you offer them love and you want them to change" I do believe that people are capable of change. i believe that most of us feel that there is room and opportunity to change. However, "some old stubborn dogs really can't (or really don't want) to be taught new tricks". Some folks when they post, are seeking certain answers that validate their feelings expressed, and tend to ignore the comments of those who ruffle their feathers or call them on their shit, etc. Given the nature of this board, and what is shared and what is or may be "selectively omitted" or forgotten nuances of situations, folks are limited to making only general speculations and assumptions. How many of us are on a spiritual path that involves self-exploration and subsequent growth? Is growth not change? And are relationship "issues" not also opportunities for people to go inside, look at themselves honestly, come to realizations and move toward change? These are are valid points to consider, but i believe there is always more depth and other perspectives than what is often shared on one side of a relationship issue. I believe that by meditating on positive thoughts, I can change my attitude. I believe that by choosing to process experiences in a different way, I can create change in the way I respond emotionally to situations. I believe change is possible. One of the reasons I love my relationship with my boyfriend is that he challenges me to see things in new ways and, if I come upon a new way of thinking that works better for me than the way Im doing it presently, to integrate those ways into my own thought patterns. He loves me as I am, but still encourages me to grow and yes, I believe even to change. You are fortunate to have this vision and awareness, and i believe that is part of why you found another who complements who you are. Others are not there yet, while some others may be way ahead. Is it somehow a disservice to one party (I guess it would usually be the sub) to expect or suggest that he or she change something for the sake of the relationship if that change is inevitably going to be one that improves his or her self-awareness and results in personal growth? For me, that is a huge part of what draws me to this type of relationship to begin with. We talk about training and behavior modification of the slave, but yet when the submissive partner in a relationship expresses that "a need is not being met" so many people say "leave the relationship". Are we not doing them a disservice by offering this kind of broad, sweeping advice? That is an area, where we can only generalize without knowing the details and the other perspectives involved in relationship issues. It is also a disservice to the other party involved, when only one side of the issue is presented by the poster. Emotional posts tend to be very subjective. Other issues may not be conveyed objectively during these situations. Advice is just that. It is asked for and given. There are no rules as to what type of advice will be given or received, nor should there be. The poster has the choice to either accept the advice offered, or breeze past it and move on. This is NOT a professional counseling board. It is a place of community support, nothing more. Or, are we setting them up for failure by suggesting that he or she can change and find a way to be happy under the present conditions? We, as an online community have the ability to offer support, thought, advice, perspectives and encouragement, but beyond that, we are not responsible for the outcomes of each of these individuals. That is something they have to decide for themselves. We are each responsible for our own happiness and the measures we take to get there. To go beyond that line of thought would be detrimental to think that online boards and their posters, should be weighted with that type of responsibility of setting others up for failure, simply by offering advice at the request of those who seek it... Just my thoughts...

jesskitty -> RE: Do we believe change is not possible? (9/7/2006 9:19:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: darkinshadows A person can change - but they have to want to. No matter what their partner wants or what others think, change only happens when its personal. No more no less - nor should it be any different. Peace and Rapture i think this is a really good response here. change is possible but i think we should all recognize we are humans. being human most of us will have some bumps and hills in our overall growth. i feel that it goes back to the you can't teach an old dog new tricks saying. if the person doesn't want to change, they won't. you can tell someone who eats alot of fat and fast food all they want to eat healthy, they might try it but not like the taste and go right back, but until they find something within themselves that want to you, it is then that they probably will change. it seems most of the time if we aren't being challenged in life then most people stay stagnent.

NastyDaddy -> RE: Do we believe change is not possible? (9/7/2006 9:20:22 AM)
Amazing how many subs/slaves that are standing on their tiptoes ancticipating being changed, molded into the perfect sub/slave for their Dominant... IF they can only deal with this or that "thing". [:D]

Celeste43 -> RE: Do we believe change is not possible? (9/7/2006 9:25:14 AM)
I don't think it is appropriate to expect or demand other people to change for you. Change is certainly possible, but it should be wanted by the person themselves. For example, quitting smoking. Many people find it difficult to quit but it is almost impossible if the smoker doesn't want to quit. You have to want to do it for yourself.

LadyWhisper -> RE: Do we believe change is not possible? (9/7/2006 9:30:41 AM)
All during life I believe you change, either for the better or the worse. You learn from this or that, therefore you change your standings on things. As if someone could change you themselves, no not really, not to me, they couldn't make me change, but I would change if I wanted to for that person. Does that make sense? Lady Whisper

LadyEllen -> RE: Do we believe change is not possible? (9/7/2006 9:33:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: justheather But could many of the things we tend to accept as "hard wired" also be changed with effort and sacrifice and commitment? And where is the line drawn between "being myself" and being willing to change? I guess that was really what I was getting at... not so much a cut and dry answer as to whether or not people change but are we open to the idea of change as readily as we are to the idea that a person "just wasnt right for us" when the change we would have to make involves some hard work and perhaps to a vanilla world would seem like a giving up of a part of oneself (and not in a good way) whereas the ultimate result could really be some amazing growth. An extreme example perhaps, but illustrates how hard wired some things are and a question I have asked many heterosexual men. "If you found the ideal woman for you, she was pretty, had a great body, was intelligent and witty etc etc and you desperately wanted to marry her, how would your feelings for her change when she told you she was a man until her op a few years back, or would you change your ideas to accept her for who she is now?" I have to say here and now, they usually run a mile and question themselves as to whether they might be gay. This is a change in attitude which is not acceptable to them, even though it shouldnt really matter than much (?). I don't have the answer...and honestly the more I think about it the more nuances I see and the more questions pop up... I guess Im interested in other people's ideas about personal growth, change and submission.

SusanofO -> RE: Do we believe change is not possible? (9/7/2006 9:38:30 AM)
justheather: I love your thread topic. I believe that people can and do change, but they change at their own pace. For either person to not be aware of this, (bdsm questions of who is "really in control", etc. not-withstanding) I believe, is to ultimately defeat the purpose of relationship (I wish I had a Kahil Gibran quote to insert right here, too, but don't have my book right now). I don't believe people make fundamental character changes on command, but I do believe they can have a very positive (or negative) influence on eachother, and I think people, being inspiring, as well as flawed human beings, can also under-estimate (or over-estimate) their own influence on another, at times. I remain steadfast in believing that deep caring for another can definitely conquer many relationship woes, but that it remains a judgment call dependent on more than superficial reflection, as well as honesty with oneself, regarding when, or if, mutual goals are ultimately not compatible. Personally, I am not one for hurriedly "throwing in the towel", or stating "well we simply out-grew eachother" so to speak, without some honest striving first, to attempt to decipher whether there are mutual goals that can be met, or are already being met, with someone I've made a significant committment with. Partners can "out-grow" eachother, I suppose. It still means, though (to me), that (for whatever reason), one person (or however many) chose not to be involved with the other. Maybe they "grew" faster than the other, and one did not care or help the other(s) "catch-up" or care if they did, necessarily. People can change. I see it all the time. What specific yard-stick is one using to assess another's skill, or capacity for growth? I think that if people want to deem "moving on" internally as "failure" and lay blame, and choose to not "re-frame it" they can see it as a stagnant character assessment. Or they could instead look at relationships in a new context in general, perhaps. I do believe your assessment is absolutely right. I think sometimes it's tempting for people to become stuck on "whose fault it all is" (or was), etc. and either fail to move on (emotionally), or they couled stay in the relationship and accept eachother with more patience, perhaps.Ending a relationship can be emotionally painful, of course. But, the sometimes so-called "work" to make a relationship more satisfying can be fun and interesting and very rewarding, too. The phrase: "Know thyself" comes to mind, and it seems to me, one can't see oneself as a stagnant or simple description of unchanging "traits", or have self-perception become completely dependent on another's assessment entirely, or growth could tend to be inhibited. Good topic! [:)] - Susan

MasterFireMaam -> RE: Do we believe change is not possible? (9/7/2006 9:39:36 AM)
If you go into a relationship expecting the person to change, you are falling in love with who you want them to be, not with you they are. This does them and you a great disservice. People can and do change, but only on their time schedule and in their own way. Isn't it better, not to mention easier, to find someone who already matches what you want? Master Fire

KatyLied -> RE: Do we believe change is not possible? (9/7/2006 9:39:37 AM)
quote: Amazing how many subs/slaves that are standing on their tiptoes ancticipating being changed, molded into the perfect sub/slave for their Dominant... IF they can only deal with this or that "thing". I know what you are saying. Some subs want to be "formed" or "fixed" (I hate that word) into a better/new/different person. I feel sorry for them. If someone feels they need to "change", please do it for yourself. People's personalities do not change significantly over the course of a lifetime. But people can and do grow and change. I see nothing wrong with making accomodations for a relationship that is important to you. I have gone to my Dom with specific things I needed help with. He steered me in the right direction, but he didn't "fix" me or "reform" me, at least I don't consider it that way. He gave me some tools that help me to take pause and look at things in different ways.

MstrssPassion -> RE: Do we believe change is not possible? (9/7/2006 9:43:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NastyDaddy Amazing how many subs/slaves that are standing on their tiptoes ancticipating being changed, molded into the perfect sub/slave for their Dominant... IF they can only deal with this or that "thing". [:D] Very true It is also amazing just how many people go on & on about this word: unconditional-- which translates (to me anyway) that I like you just like you are, don't worry about changing a thing.

justheather -> RE: Do we believe change is not possible? (9/7/2006 9:45:02 AM)
Yes, it does make sense. I appreciate yours and all the other thoughtful responses. Yes, NastyDaddy, a lot of people come to D/s relationships with the expectation that someone else is going to change them. The experience Im talking about, while it may require the presence of an external locus of control for initiation, would really be more of an internal discovery as a biproduct of "figuring out how to deal with the one thing"... Every relationship is going to end some day. Whether they break up with you or you break up with them or you stay together until one of you dies. When that happens, each of us is left with ourself. It is my hope that I can view the difficulties presented in my interpersonal relationships as opportunities for growth and change for myself. I guess Im just enjoying exploring, in my head where all my ideas make perfect sense ( ;-) ), the relationship between freedom to be myself and seeking out growth opportunities, between wanting a relationship that is organic and natural and doing the hard (hopefully joyfully hard) work or keeping a relationship healthy. I like hearing what other people who think about the same things have to say. Okay, unless you are a Mormon.

TNstepsout -> RE: Do we believe change is not possible? (9/7/2006 9:46:14 AM)
Of course people change, but they have to be want to do it and some people (many actually) don't want to. If a person has basic, innate character flaws and isn't willing to work to become a better person then it's really pointless to try to change them. It's best to move on. As far as imcompatibility goes, that's a different issue I think. People can each be wonderful but together they clash. Maybe they just have very different overall life perceptions and goals. Neither is wrong, so why should either change? If they really WANT to make a relationship work, despite these obstacles, both will have to be willing to adapt and compromise, but I don't see that as changing.

justheather -> RE: Do we believe change is not possible? (9/7/2006 9:59:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TNstepsout If they really WANT to make a relationship work, despite these obstacles, both will have to be willing to adapt and compromise, but I don't see that as changing. Perhaps if I offer one of the situations that got me thinking about this as an example: A slave states that her Master is not a very physically affectionate person. She also states that she is a "physical person" which I took to mean she believes she needs a lot of physical affection in a relationship. It was advised that she move on because her needs were not being met and they were not compatible with regard to physical affection. Some people offered other advice. Some people offered the advice that she might want to change her expectations with regard to physical affection or look for affection somewhere else. Some people also thought this might be an opportunity for her to explore her orientation toward affection and process his not being affectionate in a way that involves her submitting that perceived need to him. This type of self-discovery would be, in my opinion, a change. She would go from "a person who needs a lot of affection in a relationship" to a person who is able to meet her needs in other ways or a person who is able to find meaning in not having her needs met, or any other of an array of possible internal changes that might occur. This is why I see an opportunity for compromise as more than that - as an opportunity for change. I can compromise and "let" my boyfriend decide what we eat every night of our lives, perhaps holding in some resentment for it, perhaps letting it go completely, or I can take the situation and use it as an opportunity to find meaning internally and change my orientation toward making personal choices as a result. What meaning I might find, I dont know, what change would occur, I can't say, but I think there is opportunity there for a number of things to happen beyond just compromising or sucking it up or ending the relationship because I want to order my own food. I hope I didnt just muck up the waters any more than I already have. I do appreciate your response.

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