RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films

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Level -> RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films (9/9/2006 6:06:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster I really don't agree that all groups are equally barbaric, if that's indeed what Julia meant to say. Do you really believe that oceanographers as a group are as barbaric as, say, lieutenants of Al Qaeda? Sure, all groups have the potential to be equally barbaric, but that's not saying much, because all human beings are equally barbaric. In fact, one of the main virtues of religion that we keep hearing about is that it civilizes human beings and keeps them from going anywhere near their potential for evil. quote: ORIGINAL: Level She can answer on her own, but I'd guess she meant all groups are barbaric, or have that potential. That's what I took from it. Lam, all groups, or people inside all groups, have that potential, and some act on it, is indeed what I meant. One of my favorite words is "some".... some religious people do grow and become more compassionate and and some atheists do as well and some religious people are wicked motherfuckers, and some atheists are too. Same with blacks, whites, gays, straights, Republicans, Democrats.....

WhipTheHip -> RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films (9/9/2006 6:06:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster I personally prefer none of the above. Look, I have no objection to the idea that a Christian might consider his religion better than any other. It's a personal choice, and I don't anticipate that a Christian will say, you know, I really wish I was a Muslim, Islam is so much more appealing than the nonsense I believe. Christians who feel that way are free to become Muslims. Sometimes they do. But what I've noticed, and what makes no sense to me as a rhetorical strategy, is Christians who take the "We're no worse than anyone else" line when confronted with criticisms of Christianity or Christian behavior. Aside from the fact that it's defensive and defeatist, to me it represents a complete disavowal of everything that, at one time, made Christianity special. "We're no worse than anyone else" is hardly an inspiring credo. quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Would you prefer to live in a world that was shaped and formed by the Aztec belief system? The Muslim belief system? Or the Christian belief system? Take your pick of belief system. Roman Catholicism is worse than just about every other belief system. It is on par with Pol Pot, Stalin, and Hitler. One only needs to study Western history.

Lordandmaster -> RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films (9/9/2006 6:17:29 PM)
Ya quoted me before I went back and changed that sentence to "... because all human being have the potential to be equally barbaric." Dastardly, Level. Sure, if that's what you mean, and what Julia meant, there can't be much disagreement, because most people do in fact agree that all human beings have the potential to be evil. I just find it rather uninspiring when it's used as a justification for any particular belief system. If "We're no worse than anyone else" is the best they can muster at the religions fair, I'ma hafta pass on that--especially when "We'll keep you from evil" is also supposed to be one of their main selling points. quote: ORIGINAL: Level quote: ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster [snip] Sure, all groups have the potential to be equally barbaric, but that's not saying much, because all human beings are equally barbaric. In fact, one of the main virtues of religion that we keep hearing about is that it civilizes human beings and keeps them from going anywhere near their potential for evil. Lam, all groups, or people inside all groups, have that potential, and some act on it, is indeed what I meant. One of my favorite words is "some".... some religious people do grow and become more compassionate and and some atheists do as well and some religious people are wicked motherfuckers, and some atheists are too. Same with blacks, whites, gays, straights, Republicans, Democrats.....

Level -> RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films (9/9/2006 6:25:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster Ya quoted me before I went back and changed that sentence to "... because all human being have the potential to be equally barbaric." Dastardly, Level. Sure, if that's what you mean, and what Julia meant, there can't be much disagreement, because most people do in fact agree that all human beings have the potential to be evil. I just find it rather uninspiring when it's used as a justification for any particular belief system. If "We're no worse than anyone else" is the best they can muster at the religions fair, I'ma hafta pass on that--especially when "We'll keep you from evil" is also supposed to be one of their main selling points. quote: ORIGINAL: Level quote: ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster [snip] Sure, all groups have the potential to be equally barbaric, but that's not saying much, because all human beings are equally barbaric. In fact, one of the main virtues of religion that we keep hearing about is that it civilizes human beings and keeps them from going anywhere near their potential for evil. Lam, all groups, or people inside all groups, have that potential, and some act on it, is indeed what I meant. One of my favorite words is "some".... some religious people do grow and become more compassionate and and some atheists do as well and some religious people are wicked motherfuckers, and some atheists are too. Same with blacks, whites, gays, straights, Republicans, Democrats..... lol Lam. [:D] I agree that any group wishing to stand above the crowd needs more than "we're not worse than anyone else"... hell, that sounds like it would come from the Woody Allen Ad Agency lol. And some do so, and more importantly, try to live up to their billing.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films (9/9/2006 6:29:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster I personally prefer none of the above. Look, I have no objection to the idea that a Christian might consider his religion better than any other. It's a personal choice, and it's hardly reasonable for a Christian to say, you know, I really wish I was a Muslim, Islam is so much more appealing than the nonsense I believe. Christians who feel that way are free to become Muslims. Sometimes they do. But what I've noticed, and what makes no sense to me as a rhetorical strategy, is Christians who take the "We're no worse than anyone else" line when confronted with criticisms of Christianity or Christian behavior. Aside from the fact that it's defensive and defeatist, to me it represents a complete disavowal of everything that, at one time, made Christianity special. "We're no worse than anyone else" is hardly an inspiring credo. LaM, I understand and agree to a large extent. I don't think I've said anything defeatist and defensive. What I have attempted to do, primarily, is hold up a mirror to the posters who got all "holier than thou" about Christianity. I think your last post and this line of discussion is from something that julia posted. Sometimes the concept of "we are all just imperfect humans, regardless of our religion" appears close to the "all religions are pretty much the same" line of reasoning. I don't see them that way, however. And, actually, the fact that you hear "all religions are pretty much the same" from some Christians should tell you something of their humbleness. And that's just the opposite from what some of the posters have said about Christians, isn't it? However, I submit that all religions are not equal in the effects that they have on human society, and the ability of individuals to reach a high level of "self actualization". Also, there may be (or may have been) religions that might have made a better world than the one that Christianity produced ( theoretically). But the history of any religion seems to be tied up with other issues of power and politics within a society or civilization. The society that a religion "grows up in" has an effect on the impact, reach and growth (or death) of a religion and of the society it's in. A religion can be an impetus for growth in a civilization, or it can be a hinderance. Bascially, there is a synergy between a religion and a society. I've seen cogent arguments that the "problems" in Islamic countries is more of a problem with ancient bedouin culture, than with the words of the Koran. Because the roots of Islam are in that culture. Max Weber wrote a book years ago (The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism) about the synergy between Protestantism and Capitalism within Western society. The premise is that we probably wouldn't have this thing called "Capitalism" without the Reformation. I tend to agree. If nothing else, this simple concept of "free will" and "free markets" makes up (to me) for any of the atrocities that "Christians" have supposedly commited throughout history. Does this mean I condone the atrocities? No. But I certainly can't change them. I can't go back and change history. We live in the world we live in, shaped and molded by our Christian heritage. Write me down as pro-Christian. FHky

juliaoceania -> RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films (9/9/2006 6:37:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster I really don't agree that all groups are equally barbaric, if that's indeed what Julia meant to say. Do you really believe that oceanographers as a group are as barbaric as, say, lieutenants of Al Qaeda? Sure, all groups have the potential to be equally barbaric, but that's not saying much, because all human beings have the potential to be equally barbaric. In fact, one of the main virtues of religion that we keep hearing about is that it civilizes human beings and keeps them from going anywhere near their potential for evil. Oh, and Julia, I wasn't calling YOU an apologist. You know, sometimes you take these forums a little too personally--and then react in kind. What I said about the particular apologist strategy I was referring to (let's call it the "Hey, the Nazis killed people too" strategy) is something you see and hear everywhere. It doesn't have anything to do with you. quote: ORIGINAL: Level She can answer on her own, but I'd guess she meant all groups are barbaric, or have that potential. That's what I took from it. It had my name on the quote, I was making sure everyone knows I do not consider myself a Christian... although Jesus was a cool dude! Usually when people quote me I think their comments are to me, if it was not intended that way, cool, but I do not think it is odd to think it was addressed me me since you quoted my words in the context of your own. I do not take the topic of religion personally at all.. now politics... that is another matter[:D]

FirmhandKY -> RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films (9/9/2006 6:37:42 PM)
Whip, You've posted the exact same post three times. Having a problem with your browser or just going for emphasis? FHky

Level -> RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films (9/9/2006 6:37:58 PM)
*Kentucky, you might like a book called The Victory of Reason, by Rodney Stark.*

cuddleheart50 -> RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films (9/9/2006 6:41:55 PM)
Ok, I'm a little on the dumb side here, what does Kool-aid have to do with anything....I always feel so stupid posting in these threads..lol

Lordandmaster -> RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films (9/9/2006 6:43:07 PM)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown Edited to add: According to that article, they drank Flavor Aid, not Kool Aid. Who knew?

WhipTheHip -> RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films (9/9/2006 6:43:23 PM)
> If nothing else, this simple concept of "free will" and "free markets" makes up (to me) > for any of the atrocities that "Christians" have supposedly commited throughout history. You are lumping all Christians together. Protestants opposed the Roman Catholic Church and it is the Roman Catholic Church which is responsible for 99.999% of Christian atrocities. > We live in the world we live in, shaped and molded by our Christian heritage. Study Western history. We are what we are despite the Roman Catholic Church and Christians trying to keep us in the Middle-Ages. Islam is to the Muslim world what Christianity is to the Western world. Both these backwards religions have done everything to keep believers poor and in the dark. Look what Roman Catholicism is doing today in third world countries. It is destroying them. We owe what we have to today in the United States to the Free Masons. Just about every signator of the Declaration of Independance was a Free Mason. The Free Masons worked to undermine darkness brought upon the world by Christianity. Officially, the Free Mason were Christians, but they clearly had quite different beliefs than Roman Catholics. They would have been burnt at the stake, if it had been in the power of any Pope to have done so.

WhipTheHip -> RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films (9/9/2006 6:44:51 PM)
It is like a Nazi defending Nazism by saying sure a few Nazis did a few bad things, but sometime in history there must have been some Buddhist who committed an atrocity. Just like you can't blame Buddhism for the conduct of one renegade Buddhist, you can't blame Nazism for the conduct of a few renegade Nazis Where is the fallacy here? It is the same fallacy used by Level and Julia to defend Roman Catholics and the Roman Catholic Church.

cynthiamarie -> RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films (9/9/2006 6:45:50 PM)
quote: Roman Catholicism is worse than just about every other belief system. I'd rather not confuse a belief system with with the political choices religious leaders made for whatever reasons they had, real or imagined, hundreds or thousands of years ago. Yes, their witch hunts, and war on demons and "heretics" and anyone else who committed "blasphemy" was horrible, the tortures inexcuseable...and none of us would support them in this if it were happening in the present day. Science has mostly overcome the fear and ignorance that made some religious groups believe that medical problems like epilepsy and multiple personality disorder were caused by demon infestation. Christian doctors prescribe medicine now, not burn people slowly over a low fire. I refuse to take responsibility for something I didn't do, nor supported, just because I am Christian, btw. You are right, tortures were horrible acts...and torture is still going on today. If you feel so strongly against it, instead of insulting others, why not either join Amnesty International or manage to give them more of your financial support? I'm Christian, and have disagreed with other Christians who told me to my face that my son being autistic was in punishment for my own past sins, and that if I got right with God then my lymphoma would disappear. I walked away from them after reminding them of Job, and wouldn't attend any church with a similar belief system as these people. My spirituality is very personal and deep; what others think doesn't matter unless they try to force their beliefs on me, or cause me or mine pain or difficulties. About overpopulation, I disagree. The world's problems caused by "overpopulation" are caused by politics and greed. Something to think about...the entire population of the world could be crammed into the state of Texas...and the people per acre would still not match the status quo for New York City nor Tokyo.

Level -> RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films (9/9/2006 6:47:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cuddleheart50 Ok, I'm a little on the dumb side here, what does Kool-aid have to do with anything....I always feel so stupid posting in these threads..lol According to Lam, it has nothing to do with it. [:D] *gets out some Flavor Aid instead* And you have mail, cuddles.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films (9/9/2006 6:58:57 PM)
Whip, Tell me this, please. How do you square this statement: quote: ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip I am super empathic, compassionate, understanding, comforting, patient, and loving. I am an atheist, pesco-vegetarian who worships loving-kindness, and lives to lessen human and animal suffering. With your personal attacks against posters in this thread, and in your other threads (especially on benji in your 25 cent attack)? How much empathy have you displayed? How much compassion have you displayed? How much comfort have you given? How much patience have you displayed? How much human grief have you lessened with your attacks? How have you displayed your worship of "loving kindness"? Tell me one more thing. What is a person called, who espouses one thing, yet does another? FHky

losttreasure -> RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films (9/9/2006 7:01:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Level quote: ORIGINAL: losttreasure quote: ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip blah, blah, blah, blah... ad nauseam... fingertips to temples and wincing in pain Oh do shut up, Whip. I don't think he's capable. Kind of like Castro and his 6 or 7 hour long speeches.... he goes on and on..... sighs Honestly... he's a bit like nails on a chalk board.

KnightofMists -> RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films (9/9/2006 7:08:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip Study Western history. We are what we are despite the Roman Catholic Church and Christians trying to keep us in the Middle-Ages. Islam is to the Muslim world what Christianity is to the Western world. Both these backwards religions have done everything to keep believers poor and in the dark. Look what Roman Catholicism is doing today in third world countries. It is destroying them. you know your conspiracy theories sound alot like the words that I have heard from others...

WhipTheHip -> RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films (9/9/2006 7:08:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cynthiamarie quote: Roman Catholicism is worse than just about every other belief system. I'd rather not confuse a belief system with with the political choices religious leaders made for whatever reasons they had, real or imagined, hundreds or thousands of years ago. I don't know what you are talking about. The Roman Catholic Church has never said it was wrong to exterminate all the peoples they exterminated and all the belief systems they eradicated. The inquisitions lasted until very recently. > Yes, their witch hunts, and war on demons and "heretics" and anyone else > who committed "blasphemy" was horrible, the tortures inexcuseable...and > none of us would support them in this if it were happening in the present day. You sound exactly like a neo-Nazi. The only reason it is not happening today is the church and the Pope don't have the power to do it. The Roman Catholic Church has never repudiated torture or any of the dogma that led to the extermination of the Cathars and all the others. If you study in Roman Catholic seminary you will find justification given for all the atrocities. You will find Roman Catholics doing everything they can to deny or minimize all the atrocities. They will claim today that the four inquisitions that lasted a thousand years only tortured and killed a few people. They claim it was a good thing they did exterminating the Cathars and the Gnostics and all the other herisies. > Science has mostly overcome the fear and ignorance that made some religious > groups believe that medical problems like epilepsy and multiple personality > disorder were caused by demon infestation. And yet we still have problems with getting stem cell research funded, and the morning after pill available to the public. Roe vs Wade will soon be overturned. > I refuse to take responsibility for something I didn't do, nor supported, > just because I am Christian, btw. Neo-Nazis say the exact same thing. > I'm Christian, and have disagreed with other Christians who told me > to my face that my son being autistic was in punishment for my own > past sins I'm reminded of a member of the KKK I once knew who said he disagreed with other KKKers who wanted to lynch niggers. He told me this to convince me he wasn't so bad. > My spirituality is very personal and deep; bin Ladin says the exact same thing. > what others think doesn't matter Yup. > About overpopulation, I disagree. Of course, you are right. China, Haiti and the Philipines are not overpopulated. Why we could cram a few hundred million more people into the Philipines. > Something to think about...the entire population of the world could be > crammed into the state of Texas... And what a great life they all would have. Of course, you don't need any land to grow food for world's population, or any natural resources to cloth them and keep them warm. > the people per acre would still not match the status quo for New > York City nor Tokyo. We could pack the whole world like NYC and Tokyo. Of course, there is not enough natural resources now for all the people on Earth, unless the vast majority lives in abject poverty. I don't see a problem, do you?

WhipTheHip -> RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films (9/9/2006 7:10:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists quote: ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip Study Western history. We are what we are despite the Roman Catholic Church and Christians trying to keep us in the Middle-Ages. Islam is to the Muslim world what Christianity is to the Western world. Both these backwards religions have done everything to keep believers poor and in the dark. Look what Roman Catholicism is doing today in third world countries. It is destroying them. you know your conspiracy theories sound alot like the words that I have heard from others... I don't believe in conspiracy theories. I have no idea what you are talking about.

KnightofMists -> RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films (9/9/2006 7:17:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists quote: ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip Study Western history. We are what we are despite the Roman Catholic Church and Christians trying to keep us in the Middle-Ages. Islam is to the Muslim world what Christianity is to the Western world. Both these backwards religions have done everything to keep believers poor and in the dark. Look what Roman Catholicism is doing today in third world countries. It is destroying them. you know your conspiracy theories sound alot like the words that I have heard from others... I don't believe in conspiracy theories. I have no idea what you are talking about. Of course you don't... your prejudice can only be held on to if you leave out rationality and logic and embrace your own hypocritical words and ideas.... it's unfortunate that such virturous words such as... quote: ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip I am super empathic, compassionate, understanding, comforting, patient, and loving. I am an atheist, pesco-vegetarian who worships loving-kindness, and lives to lessen human and animal suffering. can not be actively demonstrated to any measureable degree of significance.

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