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BrutalAntipathy -> RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films (9/9/2006 8:44:42 AM)

Whip, that holy water weeping tree was in San Antonio. The lady whose property it was on was claiming all sorts of healing power coming from it. But when the water company shut of the water to the house, the tree miraculously stopped leaking. It seems that the miracle was caused by the trees roots penetrating a water line. Gosh darn it, those damn skeptical utility guys just have to crush another miracle by applying common sense!



WhipTheHip -> RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films (9/9/2006 9:30:19 AM)

> This is just a personal observation, but I think that a lot
> of the animosity toward Christianity stems from the
> outlook of Christians that their religion makes them
> somehow superior to others. The whole " One True God "
> thing grates on peoples nerves.
 
It doesn't grate on my nerves one iota.  Just about everyone
thinks their belief makes them superior to others.  My
animosity toward Christians comes from their exterminating,
torturing and burning at the state anyone and everyone
who deviated from their dogma one electron. 
 
The Nazis by-in-large did not torture those they killed.
Mangle was an exception. Neither did Stalin.  Christians
routinely, systematically engaged in prolonged torture
of countless "heretics" over the course of more than a
thousand years.  Just about every Pope sanctioned the
use of torture, and Roman Cahtolics believe the Pope
is infallible when it comes to religious edicts like this.
No Pope has ever apologized for the atrocities
committed by the Roman Catholic Church.
 
They tore women's breasts from their bodies, with
devices made for this purpose.  They forced mothers
to swallow barley, then forced water into their mouths. 
Their stomachs slowly expanded till they burst, but
before this happened they would lose their minds
from the agony.   The very word "torture" comes from
a type of toture Christians inflicted.  They would tighten
ropes around limbs till bones snapped under the pressure.
They slowly burned people to death from their
extremeties.   They pain they inflicted is unimaginable.
 



WhipTheHip -> RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films (9/9/2006 9:33:50 AM)

I once witnessed an event that could only be described as miraculous.
Even though I was a hard atheist at the time, it led me to believe I
might be mistaken.  Then I discovered the truth.  The event was
a normal, natural phenomenon.    

I was hit in the head twice by what seemed to be an invisible
object.   Extensive investigation could not produce a natural
cause.

> "I was hit in the head twice . . ."

Of course, many here may say this explains a lot, but it
wasn't that hard, and more like being struck by an object
that squished like a wet newspaper, but wasn't wet.



PALEHORSERIDING -> RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films (9/9/2006 10:00:30 AM)

question for u is it Christianity u dislike or white people for white people we the ones who used Old school Christianity to Enslave and conquer all the people "who dont have souls" so they are not Human.

Islam was based upon the ethos of conquering. Christianity on turn the other cheek. Islam caused the crusade by conquering Christian lands in the middle east. The burning of the witches was so MEN could become the doctors of the world and also some actually were satanic worshipers. The reason the Pope never said anything against the Jews being Killed in WW2 was the simple fact he did not want the Nazi or the Fascist to destroy him and the christians there as well its called real politic. I wonder would u have said something against what the Nazi did since by definition all Master and Doms share alot of the same philosophy as Nazism except without the Racism.




WhipTheHip -> RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films (9/9/2006 10:17:12 AM)

> The reason the Pope never said anything against the Jews being Killed in WW2 was
> the simple fact he did not want the Nazi or the Fascist to destroy him and the
> christians there as well its called real politic.

And what is the reason why no Pope has ever apologized for all the people
totured and exterminated by the Church?

> I wonder would u have said something against what the Nazi did since
> by definition all Master and Doms share alot of the same philosophy
> as Nazism except without the Racism.

My philosophy is the exact opposite of Nazism in every respect.




WhipTheHip -> RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films (9/9/2006 10:19:20 AM)

I judge every  person as an individual.   Not every Nazi was a bad person,
likewise not every Christian was a bad person.



Level -> RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films (9/9/2006 10:36:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Fast Reply.

My, my, my what venom and hatred ooze from the screen when someone dare mention the possibility that Christianity isn't all bad.

I'm not trying to convert or convince anyone to accept any specific religion or belief.  I am asking that you don't let your personal prejudices make you out to be the very thing you are railing against when you condemn Christianity.  Narrow minded.  Hate filled.  Smug in your beliefs.  Self-righteous.  Especially self-righteous.  That seems to be a common theme in the "anti-religion" believers.

Some specific comments:

Crappy:

1.  The DaVinci Code:  Do you mean Holy Blood, Holy Grail  or the works of Pierre Plantard?

Some people will take the slightest whiff of a bad aroma to declare that the cheese is bad.

And the lawsuit is over.  Dan Brown was found not to have "stolen" anything.  But ... if you wanna believe what you wanna believe ... far be it from me to suggest you look for facts.

Judge: 'Da Vinci Code' did not breach copyright laws

2. The Pope not helping the Jews during WWII. 

You haven't kept up much with the latest research and publications I don't guess.  This meme was given a lot of momentum by the publication of  Hitler's Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII in 1999.  Why not check out the rebuttal in Hitler, the War, and the Pope published 2000?  Or even better, the book The Myth of Hitler's Pope: Pope Pius XII and His Secret War Against Nazi Germany written by Rabbi David G. Dalin in 2005?

But, I guess, since you already know everything, you've spent a lot of time reviewing, reading, determining the most probable facts already, haven't you?  No, you aren't the kind of man who simply operates on his prejudices, are you?

3.  Things "going over people's head".  While not everyone has the same knowledge and experiences you may have, neither do many of them have the haughty ego either.  Give me an uneducated, down-to-earth person without an attitude of condescension any day.  However, I am also well versed in the manner and methods of condescension myself.  But I tend to withhold my blessedly righteous displays of superiority for people who deserve them, not condemn the entire CM readership as stupid and uneducated.

Brutalapathy:

4.  Give your heart to Quetzacoatyl. Better yet, give someone elses heart to Quetzacoatyl!

I spewed my Sam's Choice Clear American White Grape Naturally Flavored Sparkling Water Beverage all over my keyboard!  No, wait ... condescension ... hmmm ... I spewed my Chateau Lafite Rothschild Pauillac all over my foie gras.  Yeah, that's the ticket ...

Great joke Brutal.

Invictus:

5. Wikipedia:

Wikipedia survives research test

Special Report: Internet encyclopaedias go head to head

There are others.  Nothing touched by the hands of man is perfect (hey, didn't I say that before?).  I don't wish to get into a slug fest over the overall accuracy of the Wiki system, but I think that anything you read should always be read with critical thinking skills.  Anything.

6.  Eucharist = cannibalism.  Got it.  No shock here, I'm afraid.

7.  Your argument against my argument re: Did the Christian religion bring any good concepts to human society or provide any comfort and benefit to people through the ages is fatally flawed.  Actually, I do think that Ghengis Khan was a great leader and did a lot for the peoples of Asia.  Did he kill a bunch too?  Seems so.  Please go back and read benji's post about morals of the time.

What I find amusing is that even the people who scream how evil and detestable Christianity has been throughout history seem to unconsciously use the Christian morality as the touchstone of their diatribes.

8.  God in a building.  Hilarious.  And shows me the great void in your understanding of what Christianity is suppose to be about, as well.  "Sound and fury ... "

So that it doesn't get lost in all the outrage, I'll say it again.  From my experience, too many people who rail against Christianity act and speak in perfect mirroring of the things that they condemn. 

FHky

edited for:: Grammar and clarity


Kudos, Kentucky. Good job.



Level -> RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films (9/9/2006 10:40:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BrutalAntipathy


I don't have a religion. I have a deep, personal relationship with a dead guy, Carl Sagan. Hey, does that sound any crazier than claiming that I have a deep, personal relationship with a guy that died on a stick 2,000 years ago?


Only if you have the esteemed Mr. Sagan's body propped up in a chair in your basment [:D].

"The well-meaning contention that all ideas have equal merit seems to me little different from the disastrous contention that no ideas have any merit." ---Carl Sagan



Lordandmaster -> RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films (9/9/2006 10:46:07 AM)

I'm not really too eager to leap into this fray--mainly because I think everyone knows how I feel about these issues--but this is the kind of comparison that makes my skin crawl.  OK, we all know about the Inquisition, the Thirty Years' War, blah blah blah...but hey, the Nazis and Commies killed a lot of people too!  So religion can't be all that bad.

It's called "tu quoque," for those of you who are scoring the who-can-construct-the-least-original-fallacy derby at home.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

And I am not a Christian apologist, but I would bet that there have been many more people killed in the name of some type of athiestic fascism (fascism, nazism, communism,etc.) than have been killed by religious zealots through history.



GeekFreak -> RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films (9/9/2006 11:14:53 AM)



Hmmm...I thought this would be a political post...guess not.


I don't have much here to comment on, as this post has already become pretty argumentative...but I did want to mention one thing. Out of all the times I've read posts here that delve into "Christianity" discussions I see a lot of hateful and mean spirited comments towards Christians...typically these comments have to do with how awful and hateful and unaccepting Christians are. Just seems ironic is all...I'd have a hard time taking myself seriously if I was making those comments.



juliaoceania -> RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films (9/9/2006 12:29:43 PM)

fast reply,

Human beings have been around a lot longer than Christianity, and they have been killing each other indiscriminately a lot longer. As far as torture goes, well mankind is just not very nice and it has nothing to do with religion. Romans could be very brutal way before Christianity became the state religion.

It seems to be rather narrow to measure someone's brutality by their religion. Religion is often used as the justification for many things, but war is usually an economic activity. If someone else has land you want you have to kill them, if someone has access to water and you want it, you kill them... and so on. You might have to convince the little people to go along by telling them how "evil" their enemy is, but that extends much further than Christianity. As someone that has studied other cultures one of the easiest ways to get people to go to war is to tell them that the enemy "eats children" or some other sort of hate mongering bullshit... this tactic is much older than Christianity.. it is human nature to want things that do not belong to you.

Now we can demonize any group of people in order to get others to hate them enough to kill them, this thread is a prime example of hate mongering against Christians.. Christians are no worse or better than any other group of people, and to assert otherwise is just nonsense... next someone will accuse Christians of cannibalism...geesh



Level -> RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films (9/9/2006 12:45:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GeekFreak



Hmmm...I thought this would be a political post...guess not.


I don't have much here to comment on, as this post has already become pretty argumentative...but I did want to mention one thing. Out of all the times I've read posts here that delve into "Christianity" discussions I see a lot of hateful and mean spirited comments towards Christians...typically these comments have to do with how awful and hateful and unaccepting Christians are. Just seems ironic is all...I'd have a hard time taking myself seriously if I was making those comments.


Seeing as how Bush is so linked with Christianity, the bile aimed at Christians can be translated as feelings towards him, I would imagine, so there's some politics for ya. Bush/Republicans/Christians, makes no difference to some.



Lordandmaster -> RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films (9/9/2006 12:56:28 PM)

I thought the whole point of Christianity was that it's supposed to better because it teaches us to love one another and live in peace.  If it's no better than the barbarian shit we had before Christianity, what did we need it for?

I'm impressed by the way the terms of the debate have shifted.  Back in the good old days, a self-respecting Christian proselytizer would say something like, "We're better and we're going to save all those poor souls who haven't had the benefit of our glorious teachings."  Now all the Christian apologists seem to be saying, "Well, we're no worse than any other religion."  Sure, if that's your self-justification, knock yasself out.

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Human beings have been around a lot longer than Christianity, and they have been killing each other indiscriminately a lot longer. As far as torture goes, well mankind is just not very nice and it has nothing to do with religion. Romans could be very brutal way before Christianity became the state religion.

It seems to be rather narrow to measure someone's brutality by their religion. Religion is often used as the justification for many things, but war is usually an economic activity. If someone else has land you want you have to kill them, if someone has access to water and you want it, you kill them... and so on. You might have to convince the little people to go along by telling them how "evil" their enemy is, but that extends much further than Christianity. As someone that has studied other cultures one of the easiest ways to get people to go to war is to tell them that the enemy "eats children" or some other sort of hate mongering bullshit... this tactic is much older than Christianity.. it is human nature to want things that do not belong to you.

Now we can demonize any group of people in order to get others to hate them enough to kill them, this thread is a prime example of hate mongering against Christians.. Christians are no worse or better than any other group of people, and to assert otherwise is just nonsense... next someone will accuse Christians of cannibalism...geesh



FirmhandKY -> RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films (9/9/2006 2:16:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

I thought the whole point of Christianity was that it's supposed to better because it teaches us to love one another and live in peace.  If it's no better than the barbarian shit we had before Christianity, what did we need it for?

I'm impressed by the way the terms of the debate have shifted.  Back in the good old days, a self-respecting Christian proselytizer would say something like, "We're better and we're going to save all those poor souls who haven't had the benefit of our glorious teachings."  Now all the Christian apologists seem to be saying, "Well, we're no worse than any other religion."  Sure, if that's your self-justification, knock yasself out.



ahhhh, now we are getting into the real meat of the matter, as far as I am concerned.

If you want to measure how "good" a religion is, based on some esoteric moral principles, you will be debating until the cows come home ... and go out again the  next day.

In the end, religions are about beliefs.  Beliefs from a religious perspective are simply that - concepts primarily based on feelings, emotions, rhetoric and a scarcity of facts.

I'd make the argument that even what is called "modern secularism" is in fact a belief system.  Generally (although you will hear screams of disagreement) any belief system can be seen as something that we commonly call a "religion".

There is some interesting research that tends to support the hypothesis that mankind is evolutionary adapted to embrace "belief systems" i.e. religion.  I "believe" this is hypothesis to be credible.

IF (notice the caps) you accept that religion is therefore something that is inherent in the mind of man, the questions then become:

1.  What is the advantage and purpose of  religion?
2.  Are certain religions and beliefs more conducive to what you believe to be the best form of society for people?

Now, based on those questions, I don't mind debating the issue of Christianity (or any religion).

However, there are certain circular logical constructs and inherent prejudices even in the questions.  Your current belief system (or the one that shaped you as a child and a person) lend you to either favor your definition of "best form of society" or make you react in opposition to your formative beliefs depending on your experiences and your personality.  Think of the observer effect in the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle.  Because we are an integral part of the thing we are studying, it is impossible to be totally impartial.

Makes for some very interesting, never ending arguments.  [:D]

Further, the question of what causes human behavior has to be thrown into the mix.  Are certain (disgusting, hateful, "bad" however you want to define it) human behaviors reinforced or somewhat suppressed by certain belief systems?  Likewise, are there certain (good, laudable, desired) behaviors that are reinforced or somewhat encouraged by certain belief systems?

In other words, do the body of beliefs that are common called "Christianity" ameliorate the crudity of mankind, or encourage it?  And whatever your answer, if you accept that belief systems and religions are inherent in our genetic structure - how does it compare to all the other belief systems that mankind has gone through in history, and pre-history?  Would you prefer to live in a world that was shaped and formed by the Aztec belief system?  The Muslim belief system? Or the Christian belief system?  Take your pick of belief system.

This is not a debate for the faint of heart.

I have worked through, in my mind, the answers to these questions.  Do I expect anyone else to accept my conclusions?  No.  I am willing to calmly discuss them, but that's not something that is often possible, simply because of the visceral and personal nature of "religion".

FHky



juliaoceania -> RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films (9/9/2006 2:23:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

I thought the whole point of Christianity was that it's supposed to better because it teaches us to love one another and live in peace.  If it's no better than the barbarian shit we had before Christianity, what did we need it for?

I'm impressed by the way the terms of the debate have shifted.  Back in the good old days, a self-respecting Christian proselytizer would say something like, "We're better and we're going to save all those poor souls who haven't had the benefit of our glorious teachings."  Now all the Christian apologists seem to be saying, "Well, we're no worse than any other religion."  Sure, if that's your self-justification, knock yasself out.

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Human beings have been around a lot longer than Christianity, and they have been killing each other indiscriminately a lot longer. As far as torture goes, well mankind is just not very nice and it has nothing to do with religion. Romans could be very brutal way before Christianity became the state religion.

It seems to be rather narrow to measure someone's brutality by their religion. Religion is often used as the justification for many things, but war is usually an economic activity. If someone else has land you want you have to kill them, if someone has access to water and you want it, you kill them... and so on. You might have to convince the little people to go along by telling them how "evil" their enemy is, but that extends much further than Christianity. As someone that has studied other cultures one of the easiest ways to get people to go to war is to tell them that the enemy "eats children" or some other sort of hate mongering bullshit... this tactic is much older than Christianity.. it is human nature to want things that do not belong to you.

Now we can demonize any group of people in order to get others to hate them enough to kill them, this thread is a prime example of hate mongering against Christians.. Christians are no worse or better than any other group of people, and to assert otherwise is just nonsense... next someone will accuse Christians of cannibalism...geesh


If I am not condemning Christianity then I am an apologist? That is just too damn funny... Im not a Christian, you won't find me bashing anyone based on their religion. All people are equally barbaric



FirmhandKY -> RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films (9/9/2006 2:26:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

... next someone will accuse Christians of cannibalism...geesh


Too late.  Already happened.  Read Invictus754's post # 23.

[:D]

FHky



WhipTheHip -> RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films (9/9/2006 2:46:37 PM)

> All people are equally barbaric

Yep, let's lump the Dalai Lama, Gandhi, Einstein, and Bertrand Russell with Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Sadam Hussien, and bin Ladin.
You've gotta love juliaoceania.  

Christianity exists today because for two thousand years Christians murdered, tortured, and slaughtered, exterminated, and burned at the stake anyone and everyone who didn't accept Christian dogma 100%.  They even burned and tortured fellow Christians.   There has never been another belief system in the hisotry of humanity which has caused so much grief, agony, torment, suffering, and has in general so held back the development of human civilization.




Level -> RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films (9/9/2006 2:58:44 PM)

Well, we do "love julia", especially Sinergy lol. She can answer on her own, but I'd guess she meant all groups are barbaric, or have that potential. That's what I took from it.



juliaoceania -> RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films (9/9/2006 3:11:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

Well, we do "love julia", especially Sinergy lol. She can answer on her own, but I'd guess she meant all groups are barbaric, or have that potential. That's what I took from it.


Thanks Level, that is exactly  what I meant.. I will assume the straw man making of certain people to prove my position ludicrous was an honest mistake... I am charitable today[:)]



juliaoceania -> RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films (9/9/2006 3:17:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

> All people are equally barbaric

Yep, let's lump the Dalai Lama, Gandhi, Einstein, and Bertrand Russell with Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Sadam Hussien, and bin Ladin.
You've gotta love juliaoceania.  

Christianity exists today because for two thousand years Christians murdered, tortured, and slaughtered, exterminated, and burned at the stake anyone and everyone who didn't accept Christian dogma 100%.  They even burned and tortured fellow Christians.   There has never been another belief system in the hisotry of humanity which has caused so much grief, agony, torment, suffering, and has in general so held back the development of human civilization.




I noted that you included groups of victimized Christians to prove all Christians are murderers. Gnosticism is an interesting branch of Christianity, as is Coptic Christianity, and the Cathars...they just rocked! You have lumped some of these peaceful branches of Christianity in with all the rest and then say I am generalizing.... Not all sects of Christianity are barbarous... any sort of extremism whether it be political or religious has the propensity to be abused and used as a force of violence... Here is a link to a book called The Ambivelance of The Sacred, which documents faith being used as a force of violence and a force of peace. It is far more profitable to identify the key factors in what causes religious extremism than to wipe out anyone that has a particular faith... here is the link
http://wwics.si.edu/subsites/ccpdc/pubs/apple/frame.htm



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