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RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films - 9/10/2006 12:51:45 PM

Amaros

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

> There really is no comparison to the Third Reich, which lasted
> less than ten years - the inquisitions went on for more than three
> centuries...

Actually, the Inquisitions went on for more than ten centuries.

With varying degrees of intensity.

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RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films - 9/10/2006 12:52:05 PM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

I've read The Rise and Fall of the Thrid Reich. I know everything Hitler did to the Jews

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

> read up on WW2

I have. Much more than you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

I know every single thing Hitler did.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

I've studied history, apparantly you have not.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

Every concentration camp survivor would agree with me.

Ahhh, hubris and meglomania has a name ...

I'm not sure that reading William Shirer's The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich qualifies you as anything other than a layman. And the reading comprehension skills (or lack thereof) that you have displayed here doesn't bode well for even classifying yourself as a well-read layman.

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RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films - 9/10/2006 12:52:43 PM

WhipTheHip

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> last time I checked a Degree means you know something.

The last time I checked, a BS or BA doesn't mean a damn
thing. What do you think you can do with a BS or BA?
Nothing! Oh, maybe you can teach high school.

BAs and BSs only mean something to people who don't know
what they really mean.

I have some respect for people who recieved their Master's or
their PhD. Even then they really only know something in one
narrow field. And then there are a lot of PhDs who are total
idiots, despite having a lot of knowledge.

Sadly, our education system does not teach people how
to think logically.

< Message edited by WhipTheHip -- 9/10/2006 1:01:37 PM >

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RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films - 9/10/2006 12:56:47 PM

Amaros

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Flame war aside, how do you feel about being fined and/or imprsioned for indulging your current sexual proclivities? Title 18 is vaguely worded enough to permit almost any level of enforcement to "protect public morality" - which itself is undefined.

Politically, it's a great vote getter, particularly when all your other shit is going South.

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RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films - 9/10/2006 1:10:51 PM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

And just how many Christian states exist today? I can't think of a single one--other than the Vatican.

I'm sorry, but your whole line of thinking is unpersuasive for two reasons. It's simplistic in the extreme to think that you can characterize nation-states today as exponents of a specific religion, and it's invalid generally to rank religions according to how well they allow nation-states to survive. Aside from the fact that there's a whole lot of triumphalist emotion behind your viewpoints that I find unsettling, to say the least. It's sort of like, I'm an American, and we're great; I'm also a Christian, and most Americans are Christians--yeah, that must mean Christianity is great!

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

But how many other Buddhist states exist today?

ahhh ... why is it "invalid" to "rank" religions based on their utlity in the survival of civilizations, cultures or nation-states?

As far as "triumphalist" because you preceive me as an American and a Christian (and those are suppositions on your part), what do you know of my beliefs as far as the probable outcome of the survival of the Christian Western civilization, or my opinion of current American culture?

As I stated in the begining, it is indeed difficult to make impartial value judgements as to the "best" religion, because we are all part of the universe we are discussing. My value judgements in this thread have simply been about the value of religions in reinforcing and assisting (nations, cultures, civilizations) to prosper.

In reality, yes, I do wish to see Christian based civilization and society to survive and flourish. After all, it's the culture I grew up in. But I also think that there is a strong possiblity that Western civilization will fail and be supplanted by another due to the fact that we have successfully marginalized many aspects of our guiding religion. Some see this as a good thing. I do not.

And finally, you did indeed fail to understand most of what I was saying. I regretfully accept my inablity to assist you in understanding my point, especially in the confusing mixture in my discussions on "nations", "cultures", "nation-states" and "civilizations".

FHky

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RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films - 9/10/2006 1:23:02 PM

Amaros

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I give up.

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RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films - 9/10/2006 1:28:45 PM

FirmhandKY

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I'm sorry Amaros. Where you addressing me in your last post?

I thought your posts have been insightful, but not specifically addressed to me, so I didn't address them.

FHky

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RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films - 9/10/2006 1:41:52 PM

Level

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaros

Flame war aside, how do you feel about being fined and/or imprsioned for indulging your current sexual proclivities? Title 18 is vaguely worded enough to permit almost any level of enforcement to "protect public morality" - which itself is undefined.

Politically, it's a great vote getter, particularly when all your other shit is going South.

Such policing of morality is a slippery slope.

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RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films - 9/10/2006 1:46:03 PM

LTRsubNW

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaros

It's said that the Emperor Fredrick nearly de-populated Germany.

That may be true but it's also been said that Clinton singularly increased the population of D.C. by well over 11%.

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RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films - 9/10/2006 3:02:56 PM

Lordandmaster

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FHky, you have to admit that you're caviling at this point. First you ask how I could possibly know that you're an American and a Christian and proud of both ... and then you go on to assert exactly what you just said I have no good reason to infer from your prose. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

As far as "triumphalist" because you preceive me as an American and a Christian (and those are suppositions on your part), what do you know of my beliefs as far as the probable outcome of the survival of the Christian Western civilization, or my opinion of current American culture?

As I stated in the begining, it is indeed difficult to make impartial value judgements as to the "best" religion, because we are all part of the universe we are discussing. My value judgements in this thread have simply been about the value of religions in reinforcing and assisting (nations, cultures, civilizations) to prosper.

In reality, yes, I do wish to see Christian based civilization and society to survive and flourish. After all, it's the culture I grew up in. But I also think that there is a strong possiblity that Western civilization will fail and be supplanted by another due to the fact that we have successfully marginalized many aspects of our guiding religion. Some see this as a good thing. I do not.

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RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films - 9/10/2006 3:53:45 PM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

FHky, you have to admit that you're caviling at this point. First you ask how I could possibly know that you're an American and a Christian and proud of both ... and then you go on to assert exactly what you just said I have no good reason to infer from your prose. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

As far as "triumphalist" because you preceive me as an American and a Christian (and those are suppositions on your part), what do you know of my beliefs as far as the probable outcome of the survival of the Christian Western civilization, or my opinion of current American culture?

As I stated in the begining, it is indeed difficult to make impartial value judgements as to the "best" religion, because we are all part of the universe we are discussing. My value judgements in this thread have simply been about the value of religions in reinforcing and assisting (nations, cultures, civilizations) to prosper.

In reality, yes, I do wish to see Christian based civilization and society to survive and flourish. After all, it's the culture I grew up in. But I also think that there is a strong possiblity that Western civilization will fail and be supplanted by another due to the fact that we have successfully marginalized many aspects of our guiding religion. Some see this as a good thing. I do not.

I disagree.

I was trying to make the point that it is virtually impossible to make a "value free" judgement in this case, and you should be aware of your own procivities to assume.

Just because you made some assumptions that have some truth to them, doesn't mean they aren't assumptions. And even if they are true, your logical conclusions flowing from those assumptions aren't necessarily true. I was trying, in my own way, to point that out to you without being crass about it.

There is a major difference in the way you describe "triumphalist emotionalism" versus what I see as a cold hard appreciation of what the Christian religion has brought into the world. Your description of my opinion is actually false. You made an incorrect conclusion, although at least two of your predicates had merit (I'm an American and nominally a Christian). It does not inevitability follow that being an American and a Christian automatically gives me "triumphalist emotions". I think there are plenty of examples to the contrary.

We all make assumptions when we communicate. I have my own assumptions about you, but I try not to let any negative ones that I might have color my discussion and I try to keep an open mind.

I'm not always sure I always get the same back.

I have, however, tried to address each of your points. I think I've asked you a question or two, and received little back in response. I'm particular interested in my last one, where I asked why you don't consider it "valid" to "rank" religions based on their utility in the survival of civilizations, cultures or nation-states?

FHky

edited for: clarity

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 9/10/2006 3:57:13 PM >

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RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films - 9/10/2006 4:17:12 PM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

And just how many Christian states exist today? I can't think of a single one--other than the Vatican.

I wanted to address this a bit more, too LaM.

I'm not saying that a nation has to be a theocracy in order to be a "Buddhist nation" or a "Christian nation". But the religion should be the major source of the political philosphy of the nation, and the nation should reflect the social impact of the religion. Political parties in the West are a good example. There are plenty of "Christian" parties in Europe, although none with that name in the US (or, no major ones).

Some interesting reading: Protestant Political Parties: A Global Survey

FHky

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RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films - 9/10/2006 4:39:25 PM

MzMinx

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*laughs* I was in india less than 2 years ago ... and I stayed in a few hotels or at least one would call them lodgeings that cost about 25 cents american a day ... ruppees are approximatly equal to usa cents ... and yes I could find lodgeings at that price out in the non touristy areas ... especially if the price was negotiated by a local for us

dont even know what thread Benji posted that comment on .. but i can certainly attest to the fact its true

they where certainly not star rated but Ghandi would have found them acceptable ....

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RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films - 9/10/2006 5:18:03 PM

WhipTheHip

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The guys name is "Gandhi," not "Ghandi."
I know you are lying about the price of
lodging in India. I traveled to the most
desolate parts of the country, and stayed
in hotels that only locals stayed in and
payed the same price as locals. If you
think you can stay in any hotel in the world
for .25 cents a day, you are crazy. Electricity
and running water costs as much in poor
countries as they do in rich countries. I
stayed in hotels that have no toilets, just
a hole in the floor, and no hot water to
shower. These places went for $15 a
day. I stayed in private homes of poor
families throughout the world. You can't
get any cheaper than this. If I had offered
them .25 cents, they would have thrown
me out on my ass.

====================================================
*laughs* I was in india less than 2 years ago ... and I stayed in a few hotels or at least one would call them lodgeings that cost about 25 cents american a day ... ruppees are approximatly equal to usa cents ... and yes I could find lodgeings at that price out in the non touristy areas ... especially if the price was negotiated by a local for us

dont even know what thread Benji posted that comment on .. but i can certainly attest to the fact its true

they where certainly not star rated but Ghandi would have found them acceptable ....

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RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films - 9/10/2006 6:22:31 PM

Lordandmaster

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I can't figure out exactly what position you're taking because you keep changing the terms. If all you're saying is that there are Christian political parties, obviously I'll agree. If you're trying to say that there are Christian nation-states, I'm not going to agree. The difference isn't trivial--and yet you keep conflating terms like "culture," "people," "nation," "state," and "nation-state," and then blame me for not understanding what you really mean.

Now to get to you other question, namely why I don't consider it valid to rank religions "based on their utility in the survival of civilizations, cultures or nation-states." First, that's not what I said; YOU brought in "civilizations" and "cultures," and I can only assume it was to avoid the inconvenient fact that America as a nation-state cannot be called Christian. You'd like to equate America as a nation-state with America as a "civilization" or "culture," because then you feel you can declare that our "civilization" or "culture" is (or was, or should be) Christian, even if our nation isn't. It's a totally invalid leap. Second, I've already given some reasons as to why I don't think that's a legitimate or even illuminating way to compare religions. For one thing, it's not what the founders of these religions had in mind. That's what I meant when I said it's not even a Christian viewpoint. Jesus most certainly did not believe that the religion of the strongest nation must be the strongest religion. The one concrete example you gave was the Chinese occupation of Tibet, and I already stated my objections to it: your analysis simply disregarded the many geopolitical reasons why China took that step and was successful. It's not persuasive simply to say that it was because Communism is more ferocious than Buddhism. There are plenty of places in the world where the influence of Communism cannot hold a candle to that of Buddhism--such as Thailand.

But I really get the feeling that you're not interested in historical details like this, because all they do is clutter your analysis and detract from what seems like a very appealing theory. I don't find theories about world civilizations very persuasive if you can't show concretely how they apply.

Even your thinly veiled implication, namely that America is the strongest power in the world because of our supposed Christian roots, is based on a dangerous myth about America that I hope not to have to refute point by point. America is not a Christian nation; it was founded specifically as a non-religious state. This issue is all over The Federalist Papers; the founders were deathly afraid that posterity might misunderstand their purpose and wrongly infer that America was supposed to be a Christian nation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

And just how many Christian states exist today? I can't think of a single one--other than the Vatican.

I wanted to address this a bit more, too LaM.

I'm not saying that a nation has to be a theocracy in order to be a "Buddhist nation" or a "Christian nation". But the religion should be the major source of the political philosphy of the nation, and the nation should reflect the social impact of the religion. Political parties in the West are a good example. There are plenty of "Christian" parties in Europe, although none with that name in the US (or, no major ones).

Some interesting reading: Protestant Political Parties: A Global Survey

FHky

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RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films - 9/10/2006 6:32:35 PM

FirmhandKY

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Well, LaM, I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

FHky

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 9/10/2006 6:34:50 PM >

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RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films - 9/10/2006 6:54:34 PM

mnottertail

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So, look --- I was talking to god just recently, we had a lttle tete a tete over a cigar and huevos ranchos--you know what the fuckin guy said to me? He said, I ain't the reason they are throwing tons and tons of steel up in the air and killing everyone somebody wrote the shit down wrong-- I said, get tons and tons of blowjobs -- now how can you fuck that up?

Iehovah

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RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films - 9/10/2006 7:08:43 PM

MzMinx

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Opppps two corrections ... 1 rupee equals about 2 Us cents ... (I think in Australian not Us dollars ) .. and yes his name is Gandhi ... I made a spelling mistake

Whip ... just because my experience does not match yours ... does not make me a liar ... I see your self professed empathy is hard at work again

The places we stayed at in the range of 15 to 50 rupees per night did not have electricity and water came in buckets .... but that is how a large majority of indians live ...( and we certainly spend more on food for others, and giveing away other life necessaties, particularly children and in purchasing handycrafts direct from the makers than we did in accomodation by at least 10 fold )
I will say 150 to 400 rupees was the more normal amount per night

Your claim and I quote

"These places went for $15 a
day.   I stayed in private homes of poor
families throughout the world.   You can't
get any cheaper than this."

Does not match mine, nor many of my friends, nor those I met in my travels

I met many americans traveling for less than US$10 per day for food and lodgeings in india .... and most of my friends where traveling for less than AU $30 (approx US$ 20) per day for everything except their original airfairs ... many of whom spent upwards of a year in india.... I personaly only spent just over three months

Even in places like Dehli, I was paying about 400 rupees (US$8 ) which included electricity, aircon, hotwater and all the bollywood I desired to watch on TV *grins* ....My friends payed 250 rupees per night for their smaller room without aircon ... so roughly US $2.50 each ,. and they still got their bollywood

Even in Goa, India.. a world renown beach resort in peak christmas season where they where charging 2 to 3 times normal prices ..... I only payed 700 rupees ... so yes I hit your magic minumum US$15 per night .... but I was splurging and had a fabulous room, huge bathroom, brand new bed in a brand new hotel with water views etc .... most of my friends where paying round 300 rupees (US$6) per night

India is a land of contrast and extremes .... I may have had   some of the cheapest accomodation I have ever  experienced, but I also stayed in some of the most expensive as well .. where you had private gardens and butlers for every little villa in a walled hotel complex with gardens and pools etc

I have traveled extensively and in the last 3 years have found accomodation for under US $15 dollars per night in many places in the world ..... thailand, cambodia, portugal, egypt, morroco, vietnam and as already stated india ..... even in australia I have stayed for less than your so called ridiculous amount ... although that was my own tent in a  camping ground... but it did include electricity and shower blocks with hot water

< Message edited by MzMinx -- 9/10/2006 7:38:19 PM >

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RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films - 9/10/2006 7:31:51 PM

NastyDaddy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

I'm not saying that a nation has to be a theocracy in order to be a "Buddhist nation" or a "Christian nation". But the religion should be the major source of the political philosphy of the nation, and the nation should reflect the social impact of the religion. Political parties in the West are a good example. There are plenty of "Christian" parties in Europe, although none with that name in the US (or, no major ones).

These type of "concepts" are the biggest part of the global problem. The USA was founded on the principle of "seperation of church and state", that means keeping the religious zealots out of state and foreign policy, period!

Western religious zealots have ammended/supplemented portions of the founding fathers groundwork and continuously hammer away at combining state with "their" church, simply to attempt validation of their own ferverous agendas. The pledge of allegiance is a prime example of being ammended by adding "under God" to the "one nation, indivisible" original version... making sure US currency is essentially religious propaganda by stamping "In God we trust" somewhere on it. A disturbing recent example was the "hoopla" in Alabama over a Judge's insistance on having the Ten Commandments prominantly displayed at the courthouse.

Freedom of religion was intended to be just that... freedom of religion. It was never intended to be "Christian USA", a nation of christianity standing ready to send crusaders out into the world once again, as was attempted by european christianity whom the USA founders broke away from "in order to form a more perfect union" (it did NOT state a more perfect christian state!).

I'm a US citizen and vetreran of US armed forces. As a US citizen, I find it appalling to be "expected" to be a christian and a member of the clique by those zealots who want to save me from myself... just allow me the same freedom you push so hard at me!

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RE: Bush administration collars maker fetish films - 9/10/2006 8:10:50 PM

FirmhandKY

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Nasty,

You need to think back a little further. The US is part of the Western philosophical tradition. Perhaps instead of calling it "The West", I should call it the Greco-Roman-Hebraic tradition.

FHky

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