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RE: Should I of lied? - 9/9/2006 8:35:00 PM

Lordandmaster

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Kenin, I was talking about YOU.

Calling him a "weasel" for not supporting the cause is pressuring him.

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RE: Should I of lied? - 9/9/2006 9:15:14 PM

SirKenin

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No it is not. I am not pressuring him to do anything. It was his choice and he made it.

In case you could not figure out, this is all "after the fact". So it would seem to be a little bit too late to start pressuring him now, would it not?

No, the weasel thing was simply a result of Me being disgusted. Nothing more.

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RE: Should I of lied? - 9/9/2006 9:20:01 PM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet

should I have been more witty and come up with "I'm allergic to latex" or "It's to tight and upsets my carpel tunnel"

No...

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RE: Should I of lied? - 9/9/2006 9:22:29 PM

Lordandmaster

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It amounts to the same thing, Kenin. You think it's all right to call him a "weasel" just because you're disgusted that he would refuse to participate in a cause that you evidently support.

I don't insult people just because they don't support my causes, and I think that reflects an important difference between your character and mine.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

No, the weasel thing was simply a result of Me being disgusted. Nothing more.

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RE: Should I of lied? - 9/9/2006 9:40:54 PM

SirKenin

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Ok. I admit. I should not have called him a weasel. But that does not change the fact that I was not pressuring him into anything.

And yes, I do support breast cancer research, but that is not the point. I DEFINITELY 100% support my friends, family and colleagues.

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RE: Should I of lied? - 9/10/2006 1:16:25 AM

BlueHnS

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

Oh fuck. Talk about overanalyzing everything. My goodness. Ever heard of choosing your battles? Likening this to Tiannamen Square and other worthy causes? ROFL. Give Me a break. There is no comparison here. This is not about establishing rights. Nobody gives a shit about your "cause against pink" or "I am taking a stand against pink". Wear it or do not wear it. Whatever. He was given the option of showing his support for a suffering coworker. What did he do? "I do not like pink". You poor baby. I am sure your coworker does not like breast cancer either. I do not like pink either, but that is not like standing up the Square and taking your stand. It is being selfish. Thinking only of yourself and your needs.

There is a time to make your stand, and a time to join ranks with your peers. You, My friend, had your chance and you blew it.

So if everyone had decided to show support by doing something ridiculiously stupid like say ... lighting thier asses on fire for a dollar a light to go towards research then you'd have been right there with your own zippo?

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RE: Should I of lied? - 9/10/2006 1:35:19 AM

SirKenin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueHnS

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

Oh fuck. Talk about overanalyzing everything. My goodness. Ever heard of choosing your battles? Likening this to Tiannamen Square and other worthy causes? ROFL. Give Me a break. There is no comparison here. This is not about establishing rights. Nobody gives a shit about your "cause against pink" or "I am taking a stand against pink". Wear it or do not wear it. Whatever. He was given the option of showing his support for a suffering coworker. What did he do? "I do not like pink". You poor baby. I am sure your coworker does not like breast cancer either. I do not like pink either, but that is not like standing up the Square and taking your stand. It is being selfish. Thinking only of yourself and your needs.

There is a time to make your stand, and a time to join ranks with your peers. You, My friend, had your chance and you blew it.

So if everyone had decided to show support by doing something ridiculiously stupid like say ... lighting thier asses on fire for a dollar a light to go towards research then you'd have been right there with your own zippo?

That is right up there with some kid saying "if your friend said jump off the bridge, would you?"

Come on. That is preschool material. The intelligent call it a "non sequitur".

< Message edited by SirKenin -- 9/10/2006 1:36:47 AM >

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RE: Should I of lied? - 9/10/2006 2:36:09 AM

BlueHnS

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Mayhap it is preschool material. But then again ... isn't that where we begin to decide if we will follow the path of least resistance, or express our individuality?

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RE: Should I of lied? - 9/10/2006 3:33:04 AM

SirKenin

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Express your individuality over a bracelet to support your teammate whose health is failing? Are you completely off your rocker? Have you nothing better to do? Is that what this world has come to? ME ME ME ME ME?!?!?!?!?!

Twisted Sister should write a new song. "We're not going to wear it. No we're not going to wear it. We're not going to wear it...anymore!!". It will be the turning point of a new generation. First, slavery was abolished. Then women got the right to vote. Now, the dawn of a new era... We do not have to wear a fucking bracelet.

lol.

Ok. I should really get to bed. It is wayyyyyy past My bed time and now *I* am starting to lose My mind. Good night all.

< Message edited by SirKenin -- 9/10/2006 3:36:04 AM >

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RE: Should I of lied? - 9/10/2006 10:53:35 AM

BlueHnS

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I believe that you are missing the point. When someone says would you do this or that or the other to support a certain cause/ friend / coworker/ pet/ whatever they have given you a choice. Just because one choses not to follow the mainstream does not make them "selfish".
I'm gonna return to my preschool comment which you sidestepped before. It isn't about wearing a braclet, or lighting your butt on fire. It's about how we chose to, or not to show support.
I would also point out that a co~worker relationship is different from a friend relationship. There is absolutely no indication where that line lies. For all any of us know FnF could be secretly wishing the woman was run over by a bus, though I doubt it from the gist of the post.

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RE: Should I of lied? - 9/10/2006 11:07:48 AM

juliaoceania

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fast reply,

Part of me agrees with Sir Kenin, I cannot really conceive of not wearing a little bracelet as a symbol to show someone they were in my thoughts and I was sending positive energy their way, you know, on their side. That is me though, and I cannot expect everyone else to feel as I do.

It was Fang's right not to wear the bracelet, he does not have to, but there are consequences for the stands we make in this world. Now his coworkers probably think him a little odd, or they think some of thing that makes him 'less' in their eyes. He had a right not to wear the bracelet, they have a right to think less of him... rights go both ways. Picking battles is an interesting term, because he picked a battle and took a stand, was the outcome worth it? Only he can decide.

I make a stand not to salute the flag, go to church, or sing the national anthem, that is my stand to make. I make a stand when I am actively against the war in Iraq, my stand to make. I know very well there can be repercussions for this stand and I accept that. I accept others may not want to know me because of these stands, or they may think less of me. Like I said, these are stands that I find meaningful to me. If Fang's stand has meaning to him he made the right call... But for people to say that those in his office had no right to be "offended", well they have the right to feel any damn thing they want, just like he has the right not to do the "socially acceptable" thing.

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RE: Should I of lied? - 9/10/2006 11:24:34 AM

urtoy

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The idea that one would feel compelled to lie about such a matter boggles my miind. I just don't lie.
Nor do I feel so much importance should be attached to a piece of plastic. I'm sure the cancer patient would feel more 'supported" by a coworker who treats her as a human being rather than a "woman" or a "breast cancer patient" and provides whatever personal assistance or encouragement seems comfortable and appropriate.
I'd also question what the "supportive" boss who handed out the bracelets is going to do when the employee's treatment leaves her too sick to keep to a regular work schedule. IMO, it's silly to think some symbolic gesture such as handing out or wearing a pink bracelet can take the place of true, real-life support where it counts.

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RE: Should I of lied? - 9/10/2006 12:20:40 PM

PlayfulOne

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Well I agree with Sir Kenin, you should have just put the damn thing on. For the ones who compare this to Rosa Parks or Teinanmen Square that is just absurd.

Fangs, you are working in a group where one has become ill. The others in the group are rattled and worried, not only for their coworker but this has hit close to home for them. Someone they interact with daily has been hit and they feel vunerable. If you were not going to wear it then yes, you should have lied unless (and apparently it doesn't matter to you) you don't mind looking like a selfish ass to those you work with on a daily basis. Would you be so flippant if you had testicular cancer and they were trying to support you?

K

< Message edited by PlayfulOne -- 9/10/2006 12:22:44 PM >

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RE: Should I of lied? - 9/10/2006 12:32:19 PM

missturbation

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet

It's interesting. I don't wear pink to show support for cancer victims but I'll dress in drag to raise money for cancer research.

Have you ever heard of the Ms Bodacious contest for Cancer Relay for Life events?

In my opinion i think u cud have worn the bracelet around the office and shown ur support. You could always remove it and leave it there over night on finishing work. I find the 'i dont wear pink' a little feeble on the excuse chart.

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RE: Should I of lied? - 9/10/2006 12:48:37 PM

Emperor1956

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This post is really addressed to everyone, and I have two thoughts on Fangs' OP.

First: Oh boy. It amazes me how folks get riled up. I probably would have contributed to the cause, taken the bracelet and displayed it in my office, but not worn it as I don't like ANY of those rubber bracelets. They have become ubiquitious and therefore meaningless. Case in point: This summer there were Red, White and Blue bracelets supporting the "hope for the Cubs" in Chicago. pffffffft. But I also find myself agreeing with SirKenin (and that ALWAYS gives me pause, but...he makes some good points here).

My two contributions: 1. It is NOT legally recognized job place harassment for a workplace to support a political/health/etc. cause. There are 100s of reported cases on this issue, and by and large a "boss" can mandate the social / political participation of his or her workers. The two legally recognized exceptions are mandating participation in a religious act, or mandating support of a particular political candidate. (This by the way is based on general employment law -- some states have enacted broader "freedom of ideas at work" laws, but they are rare). Employers may mandate participation in school spirit rallys, wearing of "support our downtown" buttons and United Way contributions, to name some of the recent cases I remember. Therefore Fangs probably can be compelled to wear the bracelet, should his boss mandate it, and her boss back her up on it.

2. This brings up a second question no one has commented on. Should Fangs have lied? No. Should he have considered the effect this little bit of rebellion has on the perception of his colleagues and superiors at work? Yes. I don't know what Fangs does for a living, and maybe he is the all fire best at it in his workplace and no one can touch him. But I have been a "boss" and I will tell you that there is a little "check box" in EVERY boss' evaluation (whether it is written or not) that says "Plays well with others?" And Fangs might just have given himself a big fat pink ZERO on that score card. Maybe it matters not; maybe he's independently wealthy and work is only a hobby for him. Maybe he sees this as the first blow in the Revolution (like LA -- come on, ROSA PARKS???) But having the perspective of one who has hired AND fired people, I'd advise a worker to be careful what battles are fought so vociferously in the workplace. Just a thought.

E.

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RE: Should I of lied? - 9/10/2006 1:01:43 PM

Lordandmaster

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I disagree. If Fangs refused to wear the bracelet and his employer fired him for it, he'd have a case. (The only exception I can imagine would be if he had been informed, before taking his job, that his employers expected him to wear whatever items of clothing and jewelry they deemed appropriate at work. But I doubt that anything of the kind ever happened.)

Of course, the details would depend on the law in his state, but I'll bet there would be plenty of attorneys eager to take a case like that.

Besides, what you're saying is generally invalid. Do you really mean that employers can compel their employees to support any political or social cause they choose? Cuz that's what you're saying, and it's ridiculous. I'd love for my employer to "compel" me to attend a Neo-Nazi rally... I could retire!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Emperor1956

It is NOT legally recognized job place harassment for a workplace to support a political/health/etc. cause. There are 100s of reported cases on this issue, and by and large a "boss" can mandate the social / political participation of his or her workers. The two legally recognized exceptions are mandating participation in a religious act, or mandating support of a particular political candidate. (This by the way is based on general employment law -- some states have enacted broader "freedom of ideas at work" laws, but they are rare). Employers may mandate participation in school spirit rallys, wearing of "support our downtown" buttons and United Way contributions, to name some of the recent cases I remember. Therefore Fangs probably can be compelled to wear the bracelet, should his boss mandate it, and her boss back her up on it.

< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 9/10/2006 1:02:21 PM >

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RE: Should I of lied? - 9/10/2006 1:09:09 PM

juliaoceania

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IF the employer gave that as a reason for firing him, he might have a case, but like Emperor said it is an invsible check box. It can cost people to take stands, like promotions for example... there is no law that anyone has to promote you.

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RE: Should I of lied? - 9/10/2006 1:21:16 PM

gentlethistle

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FangsNfeet

I feel that you should be able to choose which charities you wish to support and how you show that support and it would be wrong for your boss to try to enforce something otherwise.

No, I don't think you should have lied, and I think you are perfectly within your rights to display the bracelet in your cubicle rather than wearing it. If your boss would prefer it back to offer to someone who does wish to wear it then I don't think that would be unreasonable either.

I often reserve the right not to contribute to charity collections on the street, even if it might be a charity that I would happily choose to support. I don't enjoy feeling pressurised into something. Ditto if work colleagues ask me for sponsorship I would like to feel free to either contribute, possibly out of friendship to the person and possibly in favour of the cause. But I would resent feeling pressurised and that I had to do so.

Actually, in general, I'm not a huge fan of rubber bracelets and ribbons and such, although I do appreciate that some people wish to demonstrate solidarity with a cause/charity this way. That is perfectly their right. If you felt that you wished to do something in response to your co-worker's illness then maybe it would appease your other co-workers' shock if you made a small contribution to cancer research (or other relevant donation). But that should be your choice, not theirs (or mine). If you say 'I prefer not to wear a pink rubber bracelet' then they ought to respect that (regardless of your gender) and that should be the end of it.

Laura

P.S. I think ownedgirlie said it perfectly in her post, "It is an individual choice."

P.P.S. I just wonder if anyone has checked with the coworker who has cancer how she feels about having to spend every moment in the office with a reminder of her illness wrapped around each of her colleagues wrists. It actually occurs to me that in this situation I would, personally, find that really opressive rather than supportive. But of course, hopefully your boss would have at least talked to her first before passing out the pink.

< Message edited by gentlethistle -- 9/10/2006 1:35:45 PM >

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RE: Should I of lied? - 9/10/2006 1:26:50 PM

moose

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Replying to the OP because (sorry!) I don't have time at present to read all three pages of replies (though have read most of the first two...)

Wearing a bracelet you have not bought is not a show of support to the person inflicted, it's a show of support to office politics. Avoid at all cost. Show your support the practical way - hey [name of person], want to go for lunch? I'm doing photocopying, have you anything you want doing? - simple things right through to "if you want to talk I'm here for you", demonstrating that 'I'm not avoiding you like you have the plague or anything'. We have a similar situation at work at present where at every turn one breast cancer charity or another is thrust down your neck, to the exclusion of all others. I avoid them like the plague in public, and give generously in private.

I am a relative of someone in the latter stages of the more aggressive form of this cancer, so strongly support the cause when I can. Office politics, I have no time for. Making a big deal out of someone not wanting to wear something thrust upon them, I am against.

No, you should not have lied, you were tactful and said things much more politely than I would have.

Never, ever, ever feel bullied into saying or doing anything in your work life that you do not believe in.

Support your colleague by all means, but do not feel obliged to support in the same way that others do.

In my own position, I know there are people who wholehearteldy support my cousin. I also know they don't wear pink bracelets. They don't need to. The money they have donated in the past goes 100% towards research into a cure for breast cancer, not 1% towards producing pink plastic bands to wear about their wrists. The fact that they are still with her, supporting her, is all I need to see.

best regards,

moose

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RE: Should I of lied? - 9/10/2006 1:28:36 PM

ownedgirlie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Emperor1956

My two contributions: 1. It is NOT legally recognized job place harassment for a workplace to support a political/health/etc. cause. There are 100s of reported cases on this issue, and by and large a "boss" can mandate the social / political participation of his or her workers. The two legally recognized exceptions are mandating participation in a religious act, or mandating support of a particular political candidate. (This by the way is based on general employment law -- some states have enacted broader "freedom of ideas at work" laws, but they are rare). Employers may mandate participation in school spirit rallys, wearing of "support our downtown" buttons and United Way contributions, to name some of the recent cases I remember. Therefore Fangs probably can be compelled to wear the bracelet, should his boss mandate it, and her boss back her up on it.

Where I was coming from in my post on that bit is that I have witnessed claims of a "Hostile Work Environment" for very similar things. All it takes (in California, anyway), is for one person in a group to feel pressured and/or ostracized. Mind you, in a case like this, the supervisor would probably just get an easy talking to, educating her on the risks of singling a person out who isn't going with the flow of something non-work related. It wouldn't be a big deal, but the supervisor wouldn't feel too great about the complaintant after that, and everyone would be sensitized to the situation.

Yeah, I know Tienanmen square was a ridiculous notion. I was on pain meds, can I recant it?!

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