RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (Full Version)

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Mercnbeth -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (12/5/2006 4:06:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

The west doesn't have to use car bombs, it has F16 fighter jets, Abram Tanks, Black Hawke helicopters etc. etc. The west was killing people in the middleeast for decades before 9/11, Madrid, the London bombings. It really doesn't matter what badge people decide to wear, whether religious or national affilliation, they are just outward manifestations of a deep rooted problem and that has been for decades western imperialism and the exploitation of other people's natural resources and the undermining of legitimate governments to get at them.


MC,
Accepting as fact everything you posted. You point out, it is war that is not, nor should be, limited to the battlefields of the middle east. Should reciprocity of all actions is appropriate for the west? I won't assume you justify their actions, but pose the question. Such as, exclusion of Islam as an allowed religious practice? Subjecting Islamic practicing woman to the same enforcement of Koran interpretation as occurs in Saudi Arabia or Iran?

Iraq was lost because the west has neither the desire nor the courage to fight the battle as it is being fought against us.

I take from your position, that the Muslims are no worse than the west has been to them. My position is the west has been no worse than they've been to themselves. The error occured in applying western versions of "freedom" and "liberty" to a people who had no similiarly defined words in their language. The idea didn't work for Carter and it isn't working now. Meanwhile, we provide a target and common enemy, which is the biggest reason I have to leave and let them go about their centuries old hobby of oppressing and killing each other. 

Was the difference between the Carter abandoned Shah of Iran and the resulting religious regime first led by Ayatollah Khomeini anything more than a different group being in charge of the oppression, torture, and death? Since the fall of Saddam the change is different brands of Muslims are being killed by a different brand of Muslims in charge. Carter = Good / Bush = Bad; you'll have to explain why that is.

Our "decades of western imperialism" pales the millennium long history of slavery, exploitation, and misery the Muslims have imposed upon themselves. This "religion of peace" has no example of freedom among it's members in its history. "Peace" is only the peace from enforced adherence to a doctrine which does not permit disagreement, dissension, or debate.



LordODiscipline -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (12/5/2006 4:36:34 PM)

My Dearest MeatCleaver:
 
There is a  question on the table which has nothing to do with previous history in the middle east or any apologistic rhetorical discourse about "why people kill people over there"...-----> (The Middle East)
 
This is not "splitting hairs" at all - and the characterization of it in such a way is really demonstrating your "lack of" in regard to the current issue on the table.
 
This section of the discussion was started by myself to get  opinions based on that question I posited in the first posting (#177) that was deposited heretowith earlier on this day.
 
In the military they would mark your response with "RTFQS"
-and-
... fail you for a lack of basic comprehensive skills
-and-
...you would be looked at with that "wow - and, he can really walk?" wide eyed amazement so often held in abeyance for usage on people of a low intellectual bent ...
 
Please do stay with the program at hand.
 
I am sure that what you are saying
(for the thirtieth time in this thread)
IS indeed important 
for someone to learn
(somewhere)
who has not heard it...
(or, read it thirty times as of this date)
-and-
...who does not have a very basic understanding of the history of the area under consideration... 
-and-
...who is seeking a means of rationalizing why people  commit violent atrocities against others...
 
But, this is not the time for it -
as it is non-sequitor/not germaine to the question posed.
 
Thank you for your assured attempt at getting this straight and alleviating the entire affair from further discourse not direclty related to what is being asked in your blunt attempt at gettting a point accross that was spewed and absorbed the twentieth time you expressed it through a posting.

Sincerely your's in historical regurgitation.... 
 
~J

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

It is moronic to carry on splitting hairs. There is Islamic terrorists, for the most part the west created them. The Shah of Iran was a western place man, he stifled all voices apart from a religious voice, thinking he could control that so all desenting voices gravitated to Islam, hence you get an Islamic revolution against the US place man and not a communist revolution or whatever. The fact that people are identifying with a religion in their fight, merely makes the religion a convenient label, just like for decades after the war communism was a convenient label. This is where the US got it wrong in Vietnam, they believed it was an ideological war against communism, when many countries recognized it as a war for national liberation, which was the reason the then British Prime Minister Harold Wilson refused to send British troops to Vietnam.

Pat Buchannon doesn't have to worry himself about car bombs,  he is not trying to kick an enemy out of his country nor is a war by proxy being fought against the occupiers of his country by its neighbours.



Sinergy -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (12/5/2006 5:23:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LordODiscipline

Just to make a point that is being missed (*in some cases on purpose - in others because there seems to be some need to balance peoples in places where it is not possible).
 
There are Muslim fundamentalists who perpetrate terror in the world.
 
There are Christian fundamentalists who state that they would like to perpetrate violence against mulsims because of the violence that is being perpetrated by them.
 
I do not see "Christian Fundamentalists" using car bombs and other means of terrorism.
 


You are right.  Christian Fundamentalists use the United States military instead of a BMW with explosives in it to terrorize a native population.

Apparently, this is ok with you because no BMWs were injured in the process of killing of thousands of civilians in their own country.

Sinergy



WyrdRich -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (12/5/2006 5:28:50 PM)

        Oops, sorry.  I forgot we're not allowed to say anything bad about people who want to kill us until there is a Democrat in the White House.  Tell you what, send me an addy on the other side and I'll e-mail you the video of a dumb kid having his head cut off by guys chanting "our God is cool" and then you can explain my error in stating that Middle Eastern culture is tolerant of violence.

       Maybe GlassGuitar can provide a link to something similar happening in an Irish pub to an English civilian?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

Thank you, WyrdRich, for taking what I said as a reason to further denigrate muslims.

You are entirely incorrect. 

Sinergy



LordODiscipline -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (12/5/2006 5:43:57 PM)

Now, because I am not so bright, connect the dots for me...
 
 
This is one of those things often alluded to and seldom challenged.
 
I would like someone to place Pat or one of hte other rhetoric spewing idiots so often called "fundies" in the driver's seat for this car bomb called Iraq...
 
The entire premise is faulted and no one (to my knowledge) of credibility has yet (even) inferred this -
 
But it seems a prominent and repetitive undertone of the "non-bible thumping political zealots"
 
And be 'snarky" if you care - my point is that your silly statements are not founded on anything except a circular illogic of an entrenched stance.
 
Too many people on both sides of the issue are simply repeating what has been said to them without any effort to (actually) think about what is escaping from their lips (let alone is entering other people's minds).
 
Thank you
 
~J
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: LordODiscipline

Just to make a point that is being missed (*in some cases on purpose - in others because there seems to be some need to balance peoples in places where it is not possible).
 
There are Muslim fundamentalists who perpetrate terror in the world.
 
There are Christian fundamentalists who state that they would like to perpetrate violence against mulsims because of the violence that is being perpetrated by them.
 
I do not see "Christian Fundamentalists" using car bombs and other means of terrorism.
 


You are right.  Christian Fundamentalists use the United States military instead of a BMW with explosives in it to terrorize a native population.

Apparently, this is ok with you because no BMWs were injured in the process of killing of thousands of civilians in their own country.

Sinergy



Sinergy -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (12/5/2006 6:07:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LordODiscipline

The entire premise is faulted and no one (to my knowledge) of credibility has yet (even) inferred this -
 
But it seems a prominent and repetitive undertone of the "non-bible thumping political zealots"
 
And be 'snarky" if you care - my point is that your silly statements are not founded on anything except a circular illogic of an entrenched stance.
 


My arguments.  Hrm.  Well, ok.  The point I keep making is that people in this country went to war and killed a whole lot of them because their culture is considered "violent."

If you are making the same point I am then I apologize for being snarky.  I misread the post thinking it was another of the people here who seem to go on the basic idea that the we should kill all the muslims, because they are "bad terrorists" who "kill people," and the only reasonable solution to bad people who kill people is to kill them.  Such circuitous reasoning boggles my imagination.

I personally think we should do what Erich Marie Remarque proposed and put all the leaders of everyone involved in a room with sticks, let them have their war since they are the ones who want it, and pin a nice merit badge on the one who is still alive at the end.

Just me, could be wrong, but there you go.

Peace out.

Sinergy




juliaoceania -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (12/5/2006 6:48:22 PM)

quote:

Oops, sorry.  I forgot we're not allowed to say anything bad about people who want to kill us until there is a Democrat in the White House.  Tell you what, send me an addy on the other side and I'll e-mail you the video of a dumb kid having his head cut off by guys chanting "our God is cool" and then you can explain my error in stating that Middle Eastern culture is tolerant of violence.


I can likewise send you a pic of an American GI on a missile getting his pic taken with a big grin, and on the missile is painted slogans such as "Fuck Allah" and references to killing Muslims on Ramadan... this was right after we started operations in Afghanistan and right after 9-11, but it still is what it is, and to me it denotes the fact that one group of people are not inherently more violent than another group of people.



WyrdRich -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (12/5/2006 7:19:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

Oops, sorry.  I forgot we're not allowed to say anything bad about people who want to kill us until there is a Democrat in the White House.  Tell you what, send me an addy on the other side and I'll e-mail you the video of a dumb kid having his head cut off by guys chanting "our God is cool" and then you can explain my error in stating that Middle Eastern culture is tolerant of violence.


I can likewise send you a pic of an American GI on a missile getting his pic taken with a big grin, and on the missile is painted slogans such as "Fuck Allah" and references to killing Muslims on Ramadan... this was right after we started operations in Afghanistan and right after 9-11, but it still is what it is, and to me it denotes the fact that one group of people are not inherently more violent than another group of people.



     And again with the putting words in my mouth.  I said the CULTURE was more tolerant and accepting of violence.  The video of Nicholas Berg being murdered in cold blood came out during the Abu Graib scandal.  Consider the outrage here over those pics to the fact that beheadings are an ancient custom there.

      I would actually argue that we in the West are currently the most violent people on earth, but our culture is not accepting of it without extreme provocation.  I would argue it, but that alarm clock goes off too damn early tomorrow.

     G'nite 



juliaoceania -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (12/5/2006 7:41:56 PM)

How did I put words in your mouth?

I will say that the American people spend more money on weapons, have their soldiers in more countries, and our companies provide more weapons to other people, than any other country on the face of the planet... under the guise of "defense". We have built a military, and have used it repeatedly, even when our people were not at stake. Our military was on Muslim soil long before they ever attacked us, and I have to say most of their people have been very tolerant toward us considering the fact we have been playing in their backyard for decades, funding coups and little wars. They know these things all too well having lived them, unfortunately our people are not informed as to the activities of their government and hence ignorant about it all....

I call it like I see it, we venerate the gun in this country, it seems we have much more in common with the Mddle East, than lets say, Norway...

Just another view.



FangsNfeet -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (12/5/2006 8:00:02 PM)

Islam Religion of Peace???  
Hmmmm. Well, if musilims are so peacefull, then why aren't the Sheites, Curds, and Suni, getting along?



meatcleaver -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (12/5/2006 11:39:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LordODiscipline


This is not "splitting hairs" at all - and the characterization of it in such a way is really demonstrating your "lack of" in regard to the current issue on the table.
 


No. I fully comprehend you, you are doing what every politician does. Reduce the scope of the argument to a specific point as though there are no contributing issues beyond that point. In this case 99% of the issue is beyond your point and shouldn't be ignored. Why and how many people are being killed is the point.

Is Islam a religion of violence? No more and no less than Christian. Thomas Aquinas defined the just war and Christians have been discussing it ever since. It just depends on how you justify war which is very subjective and usually in favour of ones own perception of the world. I see no difference in that than what Islam does.



meatcleaver -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (12/6/2006 12:19:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth


Was the difference between the Carter abandoned Shah of Iran and the resulting religious regime first led by Ayatollah Khomeini anything more than a different group being in charge of the oppression, torture, and death? Since the fall of Saddam the change is different brands of Muslims are being killed by a different brand of Muslims in charge. Carter = Good / Bush = Bad; you'll have to explain why that is.

Our "decades of western imperialism" pales the millennium long history of slavery, exploitation, and misery the Muslims have imposed upon themselves. This "religion of peace" has no example of freedom among it's members in its history. "Peace" is only the peace from enforced adherence to a doctrine which does not permit disagreement, dissension, or debate.


By the time Carter came along the damage had been done in Iran. The change of President in the US and a new policy never had time to bed in. I don't think Carter was wrong, it was just a pity there hadn't been a President with his view some twenty years before. Perhaps then all other voices and means of desent in Iran wouldn't have been banished and people wouldn't have graduated towards religion as the only way of expressing themselves. I think this episode also shows up the weakness in the US political system, there is no coherence. Every administration has their own policy and puts in their own place men in key positions in ministries (depts?). Many democracies replace the administration but do not cull the heads of civil service with every new administration so there is some continum and coherence in policy and change is gradual (except in emergency of courde). Yes, this is the American democratic system at work but to the outsider, particularly one who feels they are on the wrong end of US policy, this sudden change of policy doesn't always appear to be the genuine article but more manipulation. Carter was onto a loser from the start and it wasn't his administration that destablized the area, it was administrations before him. As for Bush, he destabilized the middle east with his invasion of Iraq and his administration's lack of plans for the security in Iraq. When he ordered the invasion of Afghanistan, just about every respectable government in the world thought the US had a right to do that after 9/11 because Afghanistan was seen as harbouring the guilty party. When the US invaded Iraq, just about every respectable government in the world was against it precisely because it was seen that the US was using a trumped up intelligence and 9/11 as an excuse to invade for its own imperial reasons. Just about everyone in the world has read The Project For The New American Century and everyone was aware that Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and Perle were Strausian deciples and had the President's ear. Yep, there are many more countries contributing the odd soldier towards the coalition of the willing but this is more to do with 'real politik' than with belief in the US's policy.



seeksfemslave -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (12/6/2006 1:50:35 AM)

Meatcleaver why do you refuse to face up to the situation as it is now. The fact that the Crusades of the 10th/11th centuries may have been non PC, the fact that the Shah may or may not have been a Western placeman the fact that Israel has been totally ruthless in some of its military activities etc etc are probably the cause of what we face today but what we do face has changed in character. For example when the Islamic revolutionaries eventually overthrew the Shah they did NOT do it by releasing nerve gas or blow ing up buildings/ trains  in Western cities.

The AlQueda members have shown that they will do that and want to do it again and again. and whatsmore they see RELIGIOUS salvation in doing it.
That is what we face. Its bloodie dangerous and we MUST do something, not debate past wrongs. 



meatcleaver -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (12/6/2006 2:37:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

The AlQueda members have shown that they will do that and want to do it again and again. and whatsmore they see RELIGIOUS salvation in doing it.
That is what we face. Its bloodie dangerous and we MUST do something, not debate past wrongs. 


Well as far as we can tell what Al Queda wants, it is the US out of Saudi Arabia, the Islamic holy land. Why are the US there? To protect a western created and supported government for oil. Now if a mythical Islamic superpower was resident in a key western country for the sole purpose of supporting a puppet, undemocratic and repressive government just to get oil, westerners would be pretty pissed off about it. The problem is that when violence starts it becomes warped and self perpetuating.

The west is fighting for oil, the west will put up with a certain amount of violence for oil. Al Queda are merely giving our governments a convenient pretence of fighting a threat and an excuse for further troop deployment in the middleeast to safe guard oil supplies. If the west was serious about peace it would have withdrawn from the middle east and allowed people to govern themselves. Several government reports have stated that government policy in the middle east is only putting oil on the fire so what does the government do? Pour more oil on and claim it is fighting for peace.

Let's have a little objective rational thought here.



seeksfemslave -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (12/6/2006 6:29:48 AM)

Meatcleaver: As I understand it Oil in the Middle East was discovered and extracted by Western expertise. The Arab nations in that area have benefitted by their geographical good fortune, which benefit left to themselves they almost certainly  would not have had.

It is true that to maintain that Oil flow Western nations have supported governments and setup states that would not be likely to harm Western interests. In the real world that is what one would have expected to happen. It is inconceivable that things could be otherwise.

I think Islamic fundamentalists with their medieval outlook on life just dont grasp this fact. Therefore they have embarked on the current slaughter innocent civilians approach.

Pointing at and consistantly blaming the West for doing what in reality they had no choice but to do is futile.

If fundamentialst regimes were installed in the Middle East and they tried to choke off the Oil, what then ?

I expect you know that one reason Japan invaded Pearl Harbour was that the US had imposed an Oil embargo on them because they had invaded Manchuria. Just an example of what differences over Oil can lead to.



meatcleaver -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (12/6/2006 7:00:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

If fundamentialst regimes were installed in the Middle East and they tried to choke off the Oil, what then ?

I expect you know that one reason Japan invaded Pearl Harbour was that the US had imposed an Oil embargo on them because they had invaded Manchuria. Just an example of what differences over Oil can lead to.


It was liberal middle eastern governments the west overthrew or prevented in the first place. The reason things have got more and more extreme in the middle east is precisely because the west keeps interfering.

If you are talking about pre-war Japan, you really need to ask why they militarized in the first place. If you answer the 'unequal treaties' you would be correct. Commadore Matthew Perry of the US navy forced open Japan in 1854 with an ultimatum which the Japanese were quick to understand. It was this interference that convinced Japan it had to militarise and create an empire like the west in order not to become another western colony. Hardly an irrational response.  Without western interference Japanese history might have been quite different.

But you are right about oil. The opening title of this thread should be 'Why are we westerners prepared to commit war crimes and crimes against humanity for oil?'



Mercnbeth -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (12/6/2006 7:19:27 AM)

quote:

It was liberal middle eastern governments the west overthrew or prevented in the first place.


MC,
By "liberal" are you referring to an open democracy or even a benevolent liberal minded monarchy? Turkey may be considered an example, but it accomplished the conversion by distancing themselves from religion, particularly Islam.

Please name one country that is an example of your point.

I'd especially like to be pointed to any "liberal" government that was "prevented" by western influences.



juliaoceania -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (12/6/2006 7:56:00 AM)

quote:

Please name one country that is an example of your point.



I can name one, Iran... here is a link to explain what we did there and why those Iranian college students took hostages when Iran had in the 1950s been heading toward democracy, the Shah that replaced Mossadegh, was ruthless and murdered 100s and 1000s of his own people... more brutal than Saddam ever thought of being, but because of the oil the USA supported his reign of terror... you see we hate the idea of true democracy in oil rich countries. It is hard to buy off an entire nation of people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Mossadegh
http://www.iranchamber.com/history/mohammad_rezashah/mohammad_rezashah.php

http://www.irvl.net/USMI.htm



seeksfemslave -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (12/6/2006 8:09:32 AM)

If true democracy entails expropriating, ie stealing assets financed, developed and organised by someone else then I am not keen on it either.!

Another point MsJ, I hope you dont believe that Al Queda want to reimpose democracy wickedly removed by the west ?



meatcleaver -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (12/6/2006 8:16:09 AM)

JO mentioned Iran. Egypt was constantly interfered with by Britain. Afghanistan by Britain. However, it was the west that created unstable regimes and drew lines across sand, dividing peoples and forcing people to co-exist with historical enemies. It was Britain that refused the Kurds a homeland, another reason for instability in the area.



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