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RE: Not good enough? - 9/12/2006 9:24:23 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		I'm also having fun playing this conversation out in my head.

Her:  I'm just not worthy of you, you deserve so much better.

You:  Are you saying you are insecure and need me to remind you how great you are?

Her:  No...

You:  Oh ok.  What did you think of House last night?

Conversation continues, her becoming slightly agitated

You:  Is something wrong?

Her:  I just don't know what to do, you need so much better.

You:  Look, you already know I don't agree with you on that.  Eventually you are going to prove one of us right.  Until then, shut up about it.  If you want me to remind you of what I think of you, ask me directly, but I don't want to hear you putting yourself down anymore.

Not that I'm saying this is what will happen, but I enjoyed fleshing out the conversation in my head.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Not good enough? - 9/12/2006 9:32:10 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I have put myself down from time to time without even realizing it, and when I do it he points it out and does not tolerate it.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Not good enough? - 9/12/2006 9:32:13 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		My marriage was exactly like this - every week I'd be asked why I was with them. True enough, I was more intelligent, more confident, more educated, earned more money, wasnt fat (as they were) etc - you name it, on most peoples' measurements, I could have "done better".

It didnt alter the fact that I loved them. And all the time I spent on reassuring them did nothing for their self esteem either.

Strangely, the instant I didnt measure up to the model they had of me (and I mean literally the instant), they were gone - after nearly twenty years with me, (straight from school), and two little UMs.

Maybe some people need to feel inadequate?
E

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Not good enough? - 9/12/2006 9:39:20 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
Strangely, the instant I didnt measure up to the model they had of me (and I mean literally the instant), they were gone - after nearly twenty years with me, (straight from school), and two little UMs.

Maybe some people need to feel inadequate?
E

Sadly there is some measure of security by playing the "under dog" and an easy source of atention and reassurance from the "No you're fabulous!" brigade.  It can become quite addicting.  The White Knights could probably recount hours upon hours upon HOURS of phone talking and going over the SAME drama issues.  It's easy to get addicted and stick with that sort of source.

And self esteem is NOT easy to get or keep, it's NOT natural to everyone.  I've allowed myself to be insecure, as long as I'm aware of them and don't allow it to control me. 

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Not good enough? - 9/12/2006 9:42:27 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I am finding it takes a lot more strength to admit when I am insecure than it does to pretend I am not feeling that way. Like I said in another post on this thread, building a relationship without being authentic because of insecurities is like building a house on sand... it just doesn't work in the long term from everything I have seen and experienced personally.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Not good enough? - 9/12/2006 9:59:48 AM   
OhReallyNow


Posts: 249
Joined: 9/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Relatively new to this all, I am still trying to find ways to... well... effectively deal with my current sub when she says, "i am not good enough for You... You deserve better."

Try telling her that you are the luckiest person in the world to have found such a wonderful submissive
 
I often told my partners 'what did I ever do to deserve you" , 'i feel so unworthy of the luck that has been brought my way' etc.
 
They were never meant as put downs on myself, only a way of expressing how lucky I felt to be in their presence.

_____________________________

~ When anger rises, think of the consequences
CONFUCIUS ~

(in reply to Horadell)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Not good enough? - 9/12/2006 4:25:57 PM   
Horadell


Posts: 47
Joined: 9/6/2006
From: SW Florida
Status: offline
Alright, I feel like I should clarify things... That would help, wouldn't it? Haha! Sorry to anyone who spent a terrible time pondering over long responses.

First, Conversations usually go...

You deserve so much better, I am such a bad person, I am worthless, all I ever do is hurt you! (after she spent an afternoon talking to a new male friend about nothing inappropriate whatsoever)

You know that isn't true... I told you it is okay for you to talk to people, I am not going to keep you from being happy simply because I am busy at work, or anything else.

You deserve so much better... You could easily find someone better than me!

No... I just need to be a stronger person and not get upset when you do the little things you do. I need to be better, I'm not as amazing as you think I am, I am stubborn, overly analytical, (random list of things I feel are my own flaws) I am NOT Perfect...

Yes you are! Even with all of those things! You treat me so well, I don't deserve someone as good as you!

Listen... You just need to realize that if you think I am too good for you, sit back and count your blessings that you have someone so wonderful, and in the mean time, let me worry about what I do and don't deserve. I deserve someone who can take care of me, like you do, who fulfils my desires, as you do (another random list)... You just need to trust my judgement. If that judgement is to be with you, so be it, if it is to be without you, well, thats my choice to make. Just sit back and relax, I'm NOT perfect... and you are amazing. Deal with it. ;)

And then the conversation usually breaks off... Some of that was exaggeration, the rest was almost dead on.

BUT! the point remains, today, she is in a very good mood and seems very happy. I think my talk with her last night had a very positive effect.

(in reply to OhReallyNow)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Not good enough? - 9/12/2006 5:00:50 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Well sure, she got the attention and reassurance fix that she wanted.

What happens next time she gets into a slump?

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Horadell)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Not good enough? - 9/12/2006 5:06:36 PM   
Horadell


Posts: 47
Joined: 9/6/2006
From: SW Florida
Status: offline 		The same thing that happens every night pinky, We try to take over... wait... wrong line.


I see your point... is it bad that I see it and I do it anyways? She cries out for attention and I give it to her. Through giving it to her, she gives me attention as well. At the same time that she puts herself down, using a variety of demeaning terms, she also pushes me up. I am often left feeling better about myself too.

Is it possible she sees that I need a lift and sees her little tirade as a way to boost my self confidence? I had never thought of it before, but it always does seem to happen when I am feeling down, and it usually does a grand job of getting me back into perspective.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Not good enough? - 9/12/2006 5:15:36 PM   
michaelGA2


Posts: 1533
Joined: 4/26/2006
Status: offline 		after the number of years i've spent on this site, i can relate. (not saying this site is bad, just not sure i'm a worthy submissive)

_____________________________

Are we having fun, yet?

(in reply to Horadell)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Not good enough? - 9/12/2006 6:25:52 PM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

is it bad that I see it and I do it anyways? She cries out for attention and I give it to her


It's only bad if you can't stand someone that needy who requires constant reassurance of her place.  It would drive me nuts, because I can't stand to be around people who are that needy.  You'd be much better served by having her work on concrete things to build her self-esteem and confidence so she has tools and won't need to go running to another person for esteem.


_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to Horadell)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Not good enough? - 9/12/2006 6:43:22 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Horadell

The same thing that happens every night pinky, We try to take over... wait... wrong line.


I see your point... is it bad that I see it and I do it anyways? She cries out for attention and I give it to her. Through giving it to her, she gives me attention as well. At the same time that she puts herself down, using a variety of demeaning terms, she also pushes me up. I am often left feeling better about myself too.

Is it possible she sees that I need a lift and sees her little tirade as a way to boost my self confidence? I had never thought of it before, but it always does seem to happen when I am feeling down, and it usually does a grand job of getting me back into perspective.


Did you even read the advice I gave you?

A short term happy high isn't what will work over the long term.  You need to start looking beyond the immediate high into long term security.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Horadell)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Not good enough? - 9/12/2006 6:56:42 PM   
Horadell


Posts: 47
Joined: 9/6/2006
From: SW Florida
Status: offline 		I know... I know... I am working on that, believe me I am... These things take time. I haven't seen another Im not good enough episode yet, so, I will take it as it comes.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Not good enough? - 9/13/2006 5:27:47 AM   
TNstepsout


Posts: 1558
Joined: 8/3/2005
Status: offline 		I have to agree with LA on this one. This sort of behavior is pretty common among women. They make self-deprecating statements in order to get a compliment or reassurance, but in the long run, it's self defeating. I think it's a situation you have to avoid feeding into. In the long run, if she keeps going this way, you'll get tired of it, and she will have created the very situation she most fears. She WILL be unworthy, abandonded etc.... Instead of learning to ask directly for what she needs, she's passively manipulating the situation.

I think a better response would be to simply cut off the conversation with "I have deemed you worthy, are you disagreeing with me?" or "I have chosen you, are you questioning my judgement?". Often times questions will help someone find the answers for themselves a lot faster than if you "tell" them what you think they need to hear. Or I would just tell her that she is NOT, under any circumstances, to say anything like that again. If she fears she has disappointed or upset you, she is permitted to ask you "Have I disappointed you?", but your answer "no" is to be taken with no further discussion. That's it.

I also agree with the suggestion that she should enter counseling.

(in reply to Horadell)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Not good enough? - 9/13/2006 7:40:22 AM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline 		Speaking entirely personally here.....

Sometimes I really do think that my Master deserves a lot more than I can offer.....it's been said that I have him on a pedestal and it's true, I do. He knows it, I know it....but he has done whatever it takes TO be there. He is a pragmatic person and knows that he has worked rather hard to help me and I know full well what he's put in also.

When I have done something particularly stupid, I feel horribly *not good enough* but it's based in fact..........not in a lack of confidence or self-worth.

I'm a little like LA in that I can actually ask for a bit of reassurance quite openly really......not everyone can do this.

You can be helped with gaining a sense of self-worth but ultimately it really is something that you have to find yourself. It can't be based on a reflection of what someone else *thinks or feels* of/for you.

Quote ( I tried to reaffirm her worth...that she should measure her worth by what I think she is)

With regards, agirl









(in reply to Horadell)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Not good enough? - 9/14/2006 6:12:13 AM   
Darke


Posts: 33
Joined: 9/3/2005
Status: offline 		Obv, it is important to be supportive of one who has issues, and guide them towards help, s many have suggested.  However, there comes a point where a Dom has to be well, Domly,  and point out:

A.) The inherent oxymoron in what she says-point out that if I am the great Dom you purport to be unworthy of, then you should trust Me, trust Me for choosing you for the qualities I saw in you, and understand that if you think I am wrong, you are naysaying not only My property but My judgement as well.

B.)  Point out that the constant fishing is not a way I prefer to spend My time, and if I am a good-Dom-of-which-you-are-unworthy, and wish to bring Me happiness, drama and constant fishing are not the ways do it, are in point of fact actively upsetting.

(in reply to agirl)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Not good enough? - 9/14/2006 7:01:01 AM   
Horadell


Posts: 47
Joined: 9/6/2006
From: SW Florida
Status: offline 		I agree to an extent Darke, especially with what others have said.

The last episode she had ended with,

Do you trust my judgement?
yes...
I have chosen you, I love you, I believe you are everything I want and need, do you think I am wrong? thereby not trusting my judgement?
no...

Okay then,  How was your day today?
(conversation continues.)

Of course, before that, there was ego stroking, me telling her she was good and fine and not as bad as she said, that I didn't find all the qualities she felt were bad as bad, and all... but this episode happened -before- I started this thread. I am waiting to see if it happens again

(in reply to Darke)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Not good enough? - 9/14/2006 8:46:59 AM   
karensgirl


Posts: 7
Joined: 9/13/2006
Status: offline 		The subject of this post could have easily have been written by my dominant.  *sigh*  Thank You for sharing it because it gives me insight as to how she feels.  i know it causes her discomfort perhaps even pain when i put myself down.  she is gentle and tender, never waivering and i have zero reasons not to trust her judgement.  my issues were inherited by her from previous relationships and taken on knowingly by her and she charishes me as hers in ways i had only drempt of before.  My true fear is not that i am not good enough, it is that she will leave me and then i will once again be incomplete which i would completely blame myself.
Someone said that they thought abuse might play a part in this lifestyle.  please let me add 2 cents here.  i think that with a natural born sub, we are born with needs (wired different than many others) which are not validated, understood, charished or acknowledged.  We are told to be strong, independent, decision makers yet search for our perfect partner on a subconcious level. We are strong, independent, decision makers with one little thing added, we live to serve and can not be happy unless this is a part of our lives.  Society on the other hand tells us that it is bad to serve others in the way we wish to be of service.  In this search we run across others that seem strong enough for us but it is not strength but abuse we find.  Our submissive nature keeps us in the situation until we can stand it no longer, not understanding why our tender hearts are not seen or charished for the love we have to give. Each search for the dominant that will complete us does more damage until one day, I cry for those who never find, we are in the arms of the one that completes us.  If society accepted us as we are born then we would not have the self esteem issues that have come from being told how wrong simply every aspect of our inner feelings is from early childhood.
With the above being said, it is hard for many of us to accept ourselves when we are finally accepted.  We can not see ourselves as you do due to a life time of being told not to trust our inner feelings or being abused when we tried and failed.  What will it take for her to accept your love for her?  she has to understand that the others were wrong, she searched and searched until she found you and you have searched and searched until you found your perfect submissive. 
It is easy to see how much you love your submissive in your writings.  its wonderful to know that there are other dominants out there like my Karen.  Best of luck.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Not good enough? - 9/14/2006 10:32:09 AM   
AutumnChild


Posts: 6
Joined: 7/14/2006
Status: offline 		Wow. This is pretty close to home, so I'll offer what I can in the way of insight.
 
The background on my circumstances; I'm in a poly situation and currently involved with two Doms. Each of them has relatively little patience for my insecurities! Horadell, I don't recall if you said this - but if your sub is fairly new to the scene, or to having a Dom/Master, then it is to be expected that she will have certain concerns about how well she is living up to what you expect of her. I think this is something many submissives struggle with. Being very strongly motivated by approval, we seek to know, particularly in the early stages of a relationship, that we are in fact 'pleasing' our partner. It becomes a serious burden for me if I feel I've done something to displease Him...
 
However, there IS a lot of truth in what LuckyAlbatross is saying. If someone relies on the opinions of others to buoy their sense of self-worth, it can become a never-ending cycle which is draining for the Dom and ultimately unsatisfying for the sub. A short-term 'fix' of reassurance and/or flattery may patch the hole for a few hours...but ultimately it's like trying to suture the San Andreas fault. The effect wears off quickly and that person goes back to their old thought cycles of insecurity and self-doubt. As a long-term solution, the only thing that will have an effect is to establish a sense of self-worth for that person that is completely independent of outside influence. This is something I'm working hard on at the moment. It's an old cliche, but the person has to WANT to change. For many people, that old 'I'm not good enough' mindset becomes comforting, in a strange way. It's familiar, and it doesn't require any work on their part to see themselves as worthless and undeserving. It requires WORK to haul yourself up out of that rut, and it can be a scary concept at first. But nothing worth having ever came easily, or so the saying goes.
 
It's possible that you can help with building her self-esteem. The motivation and the effort of will has to come from her, but it doesn't mean that you can't aid her on this journey. Encourage her to develop talents and interests separate to the relationship. What is she good at? What does she enjoy? What is an activity she could seek validation from, safely, that would consolidate her view of herself as a worthy person? I'm thinking of something like...martial arts, where a participant can work through a 'belt' system, thereby achieving objective validation of their skills and a DESERVED boost to their confidence. This is much more effective than solicited flattery. If not martial arts, maybe a musical instrument she can achieve successive 'grades' in? Something she can seek to progress in, and become proficient at, may help give her confidence a boost. It will also probably lead to her developing friendships, another source of healthy validation. 
 
Are there are physical concerns she has which might be affecting her self-image? If so, could you gently assist her to change them, if possible? (without making her feel that you're rejecting her as she is already) For example, one of my Doms intends to draw up a work-out schedule for me. I am by no means 'fat', but dropping a dress size (back to then size 10 I was a few years back!) would certainly function as a confidence boost to me.
 
There has to be a balance in terms of the reassurance you are giving her. Reassurance IS valid, and very rewarding, particularly for many people who identify as submissive. But it should not be her ONLY source of validation, and she should be aware of her behaviour - in terms of when she is asking a genuine question she can seek an answer for (say..."Did I behave as you wanted me to in that scene, Sir?") rather than seeking nebulous flattery which won't ultimately make any difference to the bigger problem. She also needs to learn to trust that when you reply ONCE to a question with a positive answer ("Yes, you did fine, I'm proud of you.") that she needs to accept that judgement at face value and not continue with pointless worrying. I'm giggling as I write this, because I DO this! But it's a work in progress
 
It's a tough question. As with all things, there has to be balance. Some subs can be very emotionally fragile, and it's important to be firm with her, but also kind and compassionate. I'm encouraged to see that you are looking for ways to support her, showing that you care a great deal about her wellbeing. I wish you both the best with this issue. :) 

< Message edited by AutumnChild -- 9/14/2006 10:34:21 AM >

(in reply to karensgirl)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Not good enough? - 9/14/2006 10:44:08 AM   
pqwinny


Posts: 117
Joined: 6/23/2006
Status: offline 		some people like to Tango others prefer Swing and some enjoy the Dance of Co-dependence.  It can offer a comfortable familiarity in it's discomfort. 

With the former dances, when the music stops the dancers do too.  With the latter only the dancers can make the music stop.

Been there, burned the T-shirt!

_____________________________

I have no special talent. I am only passionately curious.
-Albert Einstein

(in reply to AutumnChild)
Profile   Post #: 40
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