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Gotcha Politics - 9/14/2006 8:49:48 AM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		I just finished reading, "How Gotcha Politics is Ruining American" by Lanny Davis.
 
I would strongly recommend it to anyone new to the political scene.
 
I especially enjoyed Mr. Davis' point (heavily paraphrased) about the duty and responsibility of an American to question our government, and how this is being confused by so many, who think this gives them a mandate to use any means they can to discredit the other side.
 
Mr. Davis did a wonderful job of keeping his own political views, out of this work, and his examples seem to be evenly applied to both major political parties.
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RE: Gotcha Politics - 9/14/2006 9:19:41 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I would agree that personal ad hominem attacks are destructive, but that is what you have when neither side is willing to challenge the status quo and both sides are indepted to the same interests. What you get then is negative soundbytes that are not conducive to productive debate that truly challenges  the existing power structure. After what occured with Perot in the 1990 election cycle both parties have circled the wagons to ensure they will not be challenged by third parties. Those of us that are not represented by either party are told to shut up and choose one. We are told we are spoilers. We are told that we should not demand representation. We are even chastised for throwing out someone such as Joesph Lieberman that does not represent our views.

Our political debate is narrow in this country. Instead of challenging the administration on WMD for example, people such as Senator Byrd were ridiculed for speaking out. Our media creates an echo chamber where ad hominems flourish and real questioning gets sidelined.

I would probably not appreciate Lanny Davis's book, although I am sure it would be a lovely introduction for people into our political system. To be honest, every election cycle I am told to choose between people that differ very marginally on the direction we are headed and treat subjects such as American Imperialism, global trade, militarism as if it should be assumed that this is the way it should be. These are the most important decisions facing Americans, and there is no debate about them, or significant difference between the parties about these issues.... why? Because lobbyists own them... people with money have access to the political process, proles like most of us do not.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to caitlyn)
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RE: Gotcha Politics - 9/14/2006 9:21:46 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Another point quickly,  the media makes so much money off every election cycle in the form of negative campaigning.... that is a part of the problem

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: Gotcha Politics - 9/14/2006 9:32:47 AM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		From reading your posts here, I feel that you would benefit greatly from reading Mr. Davis' book.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: Gotcha Politics - 9/14/2006 9:38:50 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Hmmmm ... hardly as I do not have a "side"

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to caitlyn)
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RE: Gotcha Politics - 9/14/2006 9:56:04 AM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		Actually, not having a "side" really only means you can "gotcha" both sides.

Not to start a fight, but I consider you one of the biggest "gotcha" posters on this forum ... at least in the top three. Look at your contribution to this thread ...

http://www.collarchat.com/m_584182/tm.htm

... and pretend it was written by someone else. Really nothing more than personal attacks with no substance.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: Gotcha Politics - 9/14/2006 9:59:37 AM   
CrappyDom


Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		Before anyone thinks this book is great, do a google on the guy.

He is clearly in the "don't rock the boat" school of politics and is a backer of Lieberman.

As for Caitlyn whining about people playing both sides of the fence and "gotcha"...talk about a kettle calling someone black!

(in reply to caitlyn)
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RE: Gotcha Politics - 9/14/2006 10:01:49 AM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		"Actually, not having a "side" really only means you can "gotcha" both sides.........Really nothing more than personal attacks with no substance."

er....Caitlyn.........you are equating objectivity with a propensity to personal attack.....at least you are with the words you just used. Now i'm fairly clear that you didn't mean that sense to be communicated, but it's inherent in the words you just used. Not taking a side is a precursor to being able to view a subject objectively. i'm fairly sure the writer of the book you are celebrating didn't mean that it was impossible to view subjects objectively........
.......um........and wasn't your post also a 'gotcha', just exactly as you've been criticising?

(in reply to caitlyn)
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RE: Gotcha Politics - 9/14/2006 10:12:49 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		We all have opinions Caitlyn, you are entitled to yours as I am entitled to mine. I tried to respond intelligently to your thread. If you did not like my reply I have nothing more to add. I will say that, yes I am a pissed off person when it comes to starting wars over lies, and I will "gotcha" that everytime. I have much sympathy for people affected by wars and it is very easy to sit in some sort of bipartisan thought process while people are dying or starving. I have read your moderate position concerning these things, and respect it... but I will give you a book title The Best Democracy Money Can Buy.

I will not respond further to you since you seem to take not liking policies as ad hominems.. and by the way, I DO consider hypocrisy with drug use, being AWOL, and the like up for debate when someone acts to condemn others that have engaged in the same behavior. I do think it is wrong to start wars when you are too big of a coward to fight in one.

These are my opinions... I will not bother you anymore with my slanted opinions.  But I will continue to "gotcha" both sides when I see that they are doing things that kill our children on foriegn soil. I worry about a draft Caitlyn... you see I have this 16 year old unmentionable that is going to be eligible for one in a few years.. and believe it or not, they will draft girls too if they have to start one. And you are of draftable age.. I worry for you too. Over my dead body will I sacrifice my son in oil wars. I have actually marched for this, had the organization I belong to investigated by a terrorism task force, and probably had my name put down on lists Caitlyn. I have wondered if it will affect my ability to move up in academia one day, like happened to other intellectuals during the Cold War. I put my actions where my heart is. I will not stop the gotcha when I have my life at stake.. you see, my son is my life.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Gotcha Politics - 9/14/2006 10:47:02 AM   
UtopianRanger


Posts: 3251
Status: offline
quote:


I just finished reading, "How Gotcha Politics is Ruining American" by Lanny Davis.
 
I would strongly recommend it to anyone new to the political scene.



  By gosh golly darn gee.....thank you for such a wonderful selection! I think I'll become a more enlightened citizen and immediately skip right on over to Amazon and also purchase Carville and Begala's latest offerings


 - R



_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


(in reply to caitlyn)
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RE: Gotcha Politics - 9/14/2006 11:16:22 AM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		Make you a deal Crappy.
 
Post a link to any post of mine, where I play the gotcha game with any current or past political figure, and I will admit to it publicly on this forum.

(in reply to CrappyDom)
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RE: Gotcha Politics - 9/14/2006 11:21:33 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Make you a deal Crappy.
 
Post a link to any post of mine, where I play the gotcha game with any current or past political figure, and I will admit to it publicly on this forum.


Why is it ok to gotcha a fellow poster but not a political figure. I think it is way more important to gotcha the politicians, but again that is my perspective. I will rarely try to embarass someone on a personal basis or make them feel less in a debate and I certainly have apologized when I have... I would rather read 10,000 gotchas about politicians than one about a fellow CMer in a way to humiliate and denigrate them.. but that is just me and I could be wrong

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Gotcha Politics - 9/14/2006 11:40:31 AM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		To my way of thinking, you are far too intelligent to not understand my original post for the completely childish tool that it is. We are only one poster short of a complete set. Apparently, all my targets found that I hit pretty close to the mark.
 
The problem with "gotcha" politics, from the perspective of a person new to the system, is that it hides that which is of value.
 
In my opinion, you probably have a lot of good information to share. I would love to learn more about politics, from a person like you. What a pity that the good things you know never comes through, because you persist in discussing how the First Lady ran over an ex-boyfriend, or the President used cocaine.
 
So, I'm going to admit to my childish post. I read the board today, and decided to fire back. I feel so much better now. Hopefully the guy that would find a way to blame the United States for the snake in the Garden of Eden will chime in, and my day will be complete.

No harm done ... and take care.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: Gotcha Politics - 9/14/2006 11:58:23 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I did not say that the first lady murdered anyone, I said she hit her exboyfriend with her car. That is the truth Caitlyn, she did

I enjoy making jokes at politician's expense...it is why I love Bill Maher and Jon Stewart

I guess I am a little bit naive, I took the OP to be about real discussion and approached it that way because I am not thinking in a snarky mindset. It is a valid discussion to have and one that should bear good fruit. Political figures are free game to be made fun of. It is a long and time honored tradition that we can ridicule our leaders and not be put into a Siberian camp for doing so. Oh please no one EVER stop making fun of our leaders... I need the laugh!

I had to take political science in college, and I had this 85 year old professor who was a former Jesuit priest... he was so sharp (he has passed away since I took his class unfortunately). He said in his opinion moderate politics is the politics of mediocrity... I loved that line and it always crosses my mind when I listen to talking heads laud moderates.. I think this How mediocre!

I would remember the status quo should always be questioned, and our leaders should be held under a microscope. I do not listen to Air America or Clear Channel because of the political sniping, but I do read a lot of it.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Gotcha Politics - 9/14/2006 12:42:20 PM   
KenDckey


Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline 		<~~~~sitting on the fence watching the bricks, rocks and mud going by    LOL

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: Gotcha Politics - 9/14/2006 3:29:26 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
.......um........and wasn't your post also a 'gotcha', just exactly as you've been criticising?


Yes, my post was a "gotcha" to be sure ... but of course we are not political leaders. When we "gotcha" each other, nobody really cares. I can honestly say that no matter how hard someone has slammed me on this board, I have always gotten a good natured laugh out of it. If I even care enough to deliver back, that's a compliment, in a strange sort of way.

(in reply to philosophy)
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RE: Gotcha Politics - 9/14/2006 3:35:14 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Caitlyn,

You are a very bright lovely young woman and I enjoy your posts immensely.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Gotcha Politics - 9/14/2006 4:07:53 PM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		"So, I'm going to admit to my childish post."
 
 
...which one?

(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Gotcha Politics - 9/15/2006 12:25:33 AM   
UtopianRanger


Posts: 3251
Status: offline
quote:



You are a very bright lovely young woman and I enjoy your posts immensely.


These days..... I give tons of props to anyone under the age of twenty-five who has the attention span for a sustained discussion on politics.

quote:

Hopefully the guy that would find a way to blame the United States for the snake in the Garden of Eden will chime in, and my day will be complete.


Yo.....Chaingang......Lam .... do either of you know anything about Bush and a snake?



 - R



_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Gotcha Politics - 9/15/2006 12:31:29 AM   
Chaingang


Posts: 1727
Joined: 10/24/2005
Status: offline 		I think the snake in the garden of Eden is a private joke between CrappyDom and Caitlyn.



Those two sure "hate" each other.

_____________________________

"Everything flows, nothing stands still." (Πάντα ῥεῖ καὶ οὐδὲν μένει) - Heraclitus

(in reply to UtopianRanger)
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