RE: Watered down BDSM (Full Version)

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LaTigresse -> RE: Watered down BDSM (9/19/2006 7:40:20 AM)

I also sometimes wonder if because we have such a diversity of things under the same umbrella if that is not where alot of the disagreement we see in discussions comes from. Different aspects meaning different things to different people. Many of them not taking the time to consider that while what they do is perfectly right for them, it isn't always perfectly right for someone else. While I don't really see anyway around it all being lumped together persay, I do think it probably causes alot of misunderstandings.




raiken -> RE: Watered down BDSM (9/19/2006 7:41:28 AM)

Fast reply:

quote:

ORIGINAL: ScooterTrash

So...has the BDSM lifestyle become too much of a catch-all for all the alternative lifestyles. I know many oppose the term "lifestyle", but that really is what it is in a way..we live life and have some rather odd (and interesting) ways of doing things that don't fit into society's mainstream model for behavior. BUT, does that mean that we have become the catch-all for everyone who drifts out of the center lane. No offense to anyone who fits the following categories and I do realize there is some crossover occasionally (gezz, we're poly but into BDSM activities), but where does cross-dressing, furries, infantilism, age play, etc, etc. come into the whole BDSM "big picture". Anyone can have fetishes, but that does that mean they are automatically in the BDSM lifestyle by default?  


Just a quick thought.  I'm thinking about having the freedom to "be" whoever and whatever we want without societal backlash and judgements.  So, if some folks can find a more broader term, that includes more people, and a vast array of interests, they may feel a bit more safe, and shrouded, as in safety in numbers.   They don't have to concern themselves with having their specific kink or fetish be singled out in the spot light, when thrown into the BDSM melting pot. 




NINASHARP -> RE: Watered down BDSM (9/19/2006 7:45:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

I also sometimes wonder if because we have such a diversity of things under the same umbrella if that is not where alot of the disagreement we see in discussions comes from. Different aspects meaning different things to different people. Many of them not taking the time to consider that while what they do is perfectly right for them, it isn't always perfectly right for someone else. While I don't really see anyway around it all being lumped together persay, I do think it probably causes alot of misunderstandings.


Again, you are right on. That is why I think it is great that there is a place like these boards to see the experiences and views of others, and get a better understanding of one's self.

Respectfully,

Nina




LadyHugs -> RE: Watered down BDSM (9/19/2006 8:07:12 AM)

Dear ScooterTrash, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
Lovely topic--thank you for raising the topic up for thought or consideration.
 
In my mind's eye, I think the historical references of what we do under the title of debauchery was the true umbrella for all the kinks and fetishes that did not always include the D/s exchange, S&M, and or bondage.  It was "loving" outside the religious straight jacket of the times.
 
What we are doing, has be done for a very long time indeed.  We have paintings of the Mistress Phyllis riding the pony boy, Aristotle.  Yes, the same Philosopher we know who shaped civilization's reasoning.  Two paintings survive of this, by Hans Baldung or Grien and Lucas de Lyde.  Although Emperor Nero from 37-68 AD was a sadist, he took it to the extremes as he killed those he savaged.  But, we have S&M tacted onto Leopold von Sacher Masoch (Marquis de Sade) who really was a SWITCH, as he loved giving pain as much as receiving pain and, this is often over looked in the modern BDSM community.  Women's ability to be sadistic was documented by a Roman satirical poet Juvenal, writing; "..women rules her home more savagely than a tyrant."  We have spanking clubs in England, where everybody took turns spanking each other, absent of Top/bottom, D/s and or M/s elements and or bondage in Victorian England.  The Spanking horse, known then as the Berkley Horse, invented by Madame Berkley who had a spanking club in the era of Queen Victoria; the 1792 Bon Ton Magazine described female flagellation clubs, which William Shakespeare wrote calves to butt were flogged and the skin went milky white to red.  In France such debauchery houses were then renamed "houses of tolerance" after 1870 in which it describes rather close as to what happens today, such as Lesbian sex, S&M, leather straps and dildos, false nuns for rape scenes, electric shock and sex with critters.  Although it was for disciplinary reasons, the 'peticoat' of a male was for punishment, not pleasure.  Peticoating was dressing men from skin level to layers of women's garments, everything to wigs to shoes as to humiliate boys and men into behaving better towards women in the Victorian age.  From the pictures, they didn't enjoy it one bit!
 
BDSM is a modern term.  It merely describes the elements to which constitutes a understanding of what we do but, not a rigid standard.  Bondage can be invisible yet encompass to heavy, such as mummification.  Discipline can include punishment but, also a work and or play ethic that is disciplined or artful, it may also include the dominance and submissive partnership in an established role.  Sado-masochism can describe anything that gives or receives pain, in the mental, emotional, physical and or spiritual realms.  How we (in general terms) achieve it departs from formal description or class, into individualizm.
 
That said, by the standards I came into the scene in the 1970's, it is indeed watered down and the uniformity in some ways that were helpful have deminished.  Perhaps this is why there is a revival of sorts within the heterosexual community, to get back some sense of protocols that promoted less confusion, as it has gotten to 'loose' as far as 'doing your own thing.'  Too many people get offended because there isn't a standard in protocols in social settings.  As an example, it would be like inviting your guests to a formal dinner, your best china and service is out and a fine meal has been prepared.  Your guests, in their mindset 'doing their own thing,' come in rag like shorts, sneakers and less than clean, another pair of guest may come in a tuxedo or formal leather.  It detracts from the dining experience as a whole.  If people were to show up to a formal dinner that way in my circles in the 1970's, they would not be allowed entry and, that included Leather bars and dungeons.  So, yes by my reference points--BDSM has been watered down.
 
In my mind's eye, I cannot control others but, I can control myself and those I have near and dear to me in service.  I think regardless of how I view things, civilization and BDSM, S&M, D/s, M/s will continue to change, develop, reinvent itself and improve and at times disappear.
In my mind's eye, if people were exposed to the higher protocols they would look on with awe and be inspired.  Until standards of behavior are raised, we'll all see casual and 'do your own thing' attitudes.  After all, we unconsciously package ourselves for public consumption by, how we dress, how we behave and how we do what we do.
 
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs
 
 
 




ShiftedJewel -> RE: Watered down BDSM (9/19/2006 8:34:46 AM)

quote:

In my mind's eye, if people were exposed to the higher protocols they would look on with awe and be inspired.  Until standards of behavior are raised, we'll all see casual and 'do your own thing' attitudes.  After all, we unconsciously package ourselves for public consumption by, how we dress, how we behave and how we do what we do.

 
LadyHugs... you know I love you... right? This is so well stated I felt it needed to be repeated.
 
Jewel




SweetEscravo -> RE: Watered down BDSM (9/19/2006 8:45:37 AM)

I'm not sure if it really matters.  You'll never be able to perfectly catagorize everyone, so I don't try to.  If you really want to call it something, why not "alternative sexuality", which BDSM could then be a part of.




LadyHugs -> RE: Watered down BDSM (9/19/2006 9:52:58 AM)

Dear SwiftedJewel--

Aw [blushes 30 different shade of pink and red] -- this time its not because of menopause!

Respectfully submitted with warm fuzzy feelings,
Lady Hugs




ShiftedJewel -> RE: Watered down BDSM (9/19/2006 10:38:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetEscravo

I'm not sure if it really matters.  You'll never be able to perfectly catagorize everyone, so I don't try to.  If you really want to call it something, why not "alternative sexuality", which BDSM could then be a part of.

 
I believe that alternative lifestyle is already an umbrella term and BDSM is a sub-catagory from that point. Just as homosexual, cross-dressing, furries, infantilism and others are also sub-catagories of alternative lifestyles. All of them fall under "alternative sexuality" and unless they are crossed over with other fetishes are entities unto themselves. I think that was the point of the OP.
 
When every alternative lifestyle is bunched together with BDSM not only does it change the context of what BDSM is, but takes away from the individualism of other fetishes. Just because someone enjoys cross-dressing does not make them a sub, slave, bottom, top, dominant or switch (unless they are one and cross-dressing is an additional fetish, which isn't always the case), it simply makes them a cross-dresser and to lump it in with BDSM implies that there is more to it then that.

quote:

Just a quick thought.  I'm thinking about having the freedom to "be" whoever and whatever we want without societal backlash and judgements.  So, if some folks can find a more broader term, that includes more people, and a vast array of interests, they may feel a bit more safe, and shrouded, as in safety in numbers.   They don't have to concern themselves with having their specific kink or fetish be singled out in the spot light, when thrown into the BDSM melting pot.

 
I don't see that finding a broader term would in any way further anyone's cause nor would it promote safety through numbers. But then again I don't see spot-lighting any one particular fetish either. We thrive on our individuality to the point of arguing against labels and/or their meanings but when it comes to fetishes we insist that they all be labeled the same thing. It doesn't make sense to me. I am a female dominant, I am also poly and I am also a sadist. I don't mind those labels because in a broad sense they describe me well. But to take all fetishes and melt them together the implication would be that because I am into BDSM then I must/may also be into hundreds of other fetishes that I don't even know exist. It's unfair to me and it's extremely unfair to the others that want nothing to do with BDSM.
 
Jewel




Amaros -> RE: Watered down BDSM (9/19/2006 10:53:08 AM)

I was BDSM long before I ever knew such a thing existed - I had to 'water' myself down - it's a good thing I wasn't born in the middle ages, considering the fantasies I had even before I hit puberty - now, BDSM is sort a "mode' to me, and every time I hear the term lifestyle, I start wonding if I'm going to have to sign something - and I'm not much a joiner, and always wary of being drafted into other peoples schemes.

I'm all for marketing and all, but I don't consider the marketing part of my identity - I just "do what I do", which includes a lot of BD and little SM, but I've got nothing against just plain old freaky sex either, for recreational purposes.

I'd like to think that makes me part of a community, I'm not entirely anti-social, but I do reserve the right to make up my own mind about things, and express that, even if it irritates some sort of orthodoxy, which it often does, and I'm particularly wary of any sort of status games, I'm not choosing sides until I know who the underdog is.

On the other hand, I'm definitely "into" D/s as a lifestyle, in the 24/7 sense, I think I've tried about everything else, and it's still the closest thing to "home" I know, in a relationship sense - nothing else seems to really work, it feels like playacting - so, I'm not entirely averse to adopting it as an identity - other than my natural aversion to adopting any identity other than as an individual, me - or my role in a dyad.

Of course, this may well be the very reason some D/sr's don't want to be lumped in with everybody else, being the rugged individualist types they tend to be.

BDSM'er's are of course, also in the strange position that at certain points of history they were the de facto orthodoxy - you'd have to call Christianity pretty D/s for most of it's history, and in some ways it's probobly the feminist orthodoxy that is the most uncomfortable with it philosophically - Christians just don't like the fact that there's sex involved, and somebody might be enjoying it.

Personally, I put it all under the umbrella of "freaks", or "alt" a demographic of which I consider myself a proud member (get it?), and I don't consider say cross dressers the same as D/ser's, but in term of community, us freaks gotta stick together I guess, at last until somebody unties us and pries us apart.

I think the fact that historically, "deviants" of all stripes have been suppressed, reppressed, oppressed and purged when convenient due to some cultural horror at the naturally anarchy of love and sexual attraction give us a common experience - I think it's about as natural an anarchy as you're likely to get - in fact I think you'd have to include interracial in there as well - not all that freaky perhaps, except to voyeurs, but definitely counted along the fringe historically, changing times notwithstanding.

Hell you'd almost have to include some hardcore Christians  - nuns for instance, marriage, involving total submission and subjegation of the self to an abstract concept - that's some kinky shit. There's a distinct sexual aspect to penitentes, and even Mother Theresa wore a cilice.

I suppose I'm just mucking things up more - how about "sexual anarchists"...




NINASHARP -> RE: Watered down BDSM (9/19/2006 11:05:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetEscravo

I'm not sure if it really matters.  You'll never be able to perfectly catagorize everyone, so I don't try to.  If you really want to call it something, why not "alternative sexuality", which BDSM could then be a part of.


Well I'm thinking off the top of my head here and my first thoughts are that using the word alternative would mean that there is a choice in how I/we conduct My/our relationship. For me frankly, there is no choice, I need the power exchanges and all the wonderful things that come along with it. It is what I enjoy. And since it isn't all about sex, I don't define it as alternative sexuality.  I know many who can have such fetishes and kinks without BDSM involved at all, which is fine and well for them.  For me personally, if what goes on between me and my submissives, doesn't encompass M/s in some way, it just doesn't work for me.




jesskitty -> RE: Watered down BDSM (9/19/2006 12:56:16 PM)

i was discussing this in a chatroom last night that had mostly ageplayers in it. the consensous of the chat was that everyone pretty much agreed that ageplay isn't really bdsm related, it can be, but it mostly is something on it's own. but i think this is what i like to say with it. with all the other alternative relationships i think you'd be easier to find a partner that shares the same interst in the alternative relationship in a bdsm venue be it online or real time than in a vanillia venue. but that's just my perspective.




Missokyst -> RE: Watered down BDSM (9/19/2006 1:01:44 PM)

This kind of bugs me too.  I am a sado-masochist  submissive, who tops occasionally.  I do not consider myself a switch, because I really don't care about the power aspect when I am hurting someone.  I just like hurting them.  Yet I get a lot of requests from sub males who want me to rule them.  RULE THEM?  LOL.. I could care less what they do in their lives.  I only care about the reaction when I want them to feel pain.

I DO engage in bdsm [image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m9.gif[/image]  I DO have a rubber fetish which may be part of bdsm activity (it makes me swoon).  But it creeps me out when people wonder if I do dogs, kids, diapers, or get off on shocking the nilla world.

Just because I enjoy extreme sensation doesn't mean I can slide around on the kink bannister picking up what ever splitters off along the way.

Do music lovers love all music?  Do artists enjoy all art?  Do nillas only think about traditional and safe activities? 
Don't make me deviate from my path.. I'd get lost in a tunnel as it is
Kyst.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ScooterTrash

. BUT, does that mean that we have become the catch-all for everyone who drifts out of the center lane. 
 
 Anyone can have fetishes, but that does that mean they are automatically in the BDSM lifestyle by default?  




RedSavageSlave -> RE: Watered down BDSM (9/19/2006 1:26:00 PM)

BDSM is not the catchall for kinks and fetishes.

The term (or "box" if you will) is pansexual.




BlkTallFullfig -> RE: Watered down BDSM (9/19/2006 1:48:59 PM)

Dear ScooterTrash,
I know what you mean in that BDSM and BDSMers ought to be more clearly defined, but I'm far too inexperienced and insecure to put my foot down on any rigid standard.  For example, when I attend munches and play parties I feel out of place...  
At the play party and newbie party, I felt that the focus for the group was on becoming more switchy so that one could meet more play partners.   Seriously, my kink is Dominance and submission, on playtime activities, I'm fairly flexible as a domme...  I like to have fun with many other things, but if were butting heads all day, there ain't going to be any play ever, lol.

So, while I agree with you, I cannot say if any lifestyler's desire to call himself that (simply because he has a fetish or two), is founded or not; I guess I don't want to exclude them as I don't want to be excluded just because I don't get into heavy play like most lifestylers IMO.    M




Steelriven -> RE: Watered down BDSM (9/19/2006 1:55:23 PM)

Alright, I just have to throw myself into the ring here. I am one of those "taboo catigories," you think may not fit into the BDSM catigory. I'm not just and infantilist, however if I was I'd still be a BDSMer. This is not the first time, or last time I'll discuss this hehe.

Bear with me, giving examples is the easiest way for me to explain.

Say there is a couple... Bob who is dominant, and Mary who is submissive.

Now, it really doesn't matter what they enjoy because I'm trying to make this a simple example.

Bob has ordered Mary to have each meal set out for him when he comes home from work, and to be wearing what ever outfit he has picked out for her the previous day.

For some reason or another Mary doesn't obey, Bob punishes her by so and so...

Now, you can take that SAME example and place it a bit differently.

Bob is a "Daddy," and Mary is a "adult baby." Bob has told Mary that she must clean up her toys before bedtime everynight. For one reason or another Mary doesn't, and Bob punishes her by so, and so...

Hmm, sounds like Mary is being dominated by Bob... in each example. You can also throw in crib cages as a form of bondage, or hell diapers themselves. Have you ever tried to get out of a footed sleeper that zips in back, while wearing mittens? Hehe, it isn't easy!

So, that's my short example of why Infantilism belongs under the general term of BDSM.

Oh... and I hate the word taboo. HATE IT! Why? Eh, reactions, and experinces.




LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Watered down BDSM (9/19/2006 2:33:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RedSavageSlave
The term (or "box" if you will) is pansexual.

Actually pansexual is almost universally applied to someone who is open to forming sexual relationships with anyone of any persuasion- transsexuals, bisexuals, females, males, male identified females, anyone.

Considering many kinks and "alt lifestyles" go beyond just the sexual relationship aspects, pansexual is not really the term here.




ShiftedJewel -> RE: Watered down BDSM (9/19/2006 3:45:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Steelriven

Alright, I just have to throw myself into the ring here. I am one of those "taboo catigories," you think may not fit into the BDSM catigory. I'm not just and infantilist, however if I was I'd still be a BDSMer. This is not the first time, or last time I'll discuss this hehe.

Bear with me, giving examples is the easiest way for me to explain.

Say there is a couple... Bob who is dominant, and Mary who is submissive.

Now, it really doesn't matter what they enjoy because I'm trying to make this a simple example.

Bob has ordered Mary to have each meal set out for him when he comes home from work, and to be wearing what ever outfit he has picked out for her the previous day.

For some reason or another Mary doesn't obey, Bob punishes her by so and so...

Now, you can take that SAME example and place it a bit differently.

Bob is a "Daddy," and Mary is a "adult baby." Bob has told Mary that she must clean up her toys before bedtime everynight. For one reason or another Mary doesn't, and Bob punishes her by so, and so...

Hmm, sounds like Mary is being dominated by Bob... in each example. You can also throw in crib cages as a form of bondage, or hell diapers themselves. Have you ever tried to get out of a footed sleeper that zips in back, while wearing mittens?
Hehe, it isn't easy!

So, that's my short example of why Infantilism belongs under the general term of BDSM.

Oh... and I hate the word taboo. HATE IT! Why? Eh, reactions, and experinces.


I think if we go with your example then we would have to say that parenting is also BDSM related? There is a line there between dominating someone and "parenting" as one would in an age play scenerio.




MichMasochist -> RE: Watered down BDSM (9/19/2006 4:20:49 PM)

Alas my dear your words and wisdon sound clear.
However it's who's version of higher proticals is what I fear?

BlkTallFullfig makes some very good points as well.

To me BDSM, which has always been B&D,S&M, D&S, primarily about the consentual surrender of  ones self  to another.  The activities may include but not limited to sexual intamacy and, or, heavey pain.  Just to make it clear I am not trying to define titles or labels here, rather that I like the way the lifestyles bounderies, and hard limits, have been pushed and expanded.  While cross dressing, fetishes, and sodomy by themselves are definately not apart of the BDSM lifestyle they may be included as a minor portion, or adjunct, to what BDSM is about.

After all I don't want to waste play arguing over what is and what isn't.

Property of Tina
Mich





LadyHugs -> RE: Watered down BDSM (9/19/2006 4:42:45 PM)

Dear MichMasochist, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
Yes, the burning over all question of 'who' sets the standards for protocols for the community, et. al.
 
In my mind's eye very basic protocols should be practiced.  Flagging or coding one's self would help, to know who we're addressing--Dominant, submissive and or SWITCH.  Being civil comes to mind.  Respect other's privacy and or property as well comes to mind.  Following a dress code if one is requested/posted.  Don't interrupt somebody's scene please, unless it is a DM or a crisis.  Find out how people like to be addressed, once introduced.  Give up your chair to those who have trouble standing/medical issues, etc.  If you don't like watching somebody's kink, you're invited to walk away and avoid the area.  Don't do blood/needle/sex acts around the food and drinks please.  Don't touch other people's toy bags and or contents.  Things like that.
 
Good start I would think.
 
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs
 




ScooterTrash -> RE: Watered down BDSM (9/19/2006 5:02:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse
I also sometimes wonder if because we have such a diversity of things under the same umbrella if that is not where alot of the disagreement we see in discussions. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHugs
BDSM is a modern term.  It merely describes the elements to which constitutes a understanding of what we do but, not a rigid standard.  Bondage can be invisible yet encompass to heavy, such as mummification.  Discipline can include punishment but, also a work and or play ethic that is disciplined or artful, it may also include the dominance and submissive partnership in an established role.  Sado-masochism can describe anything that gives or receives pain, in the mental, emotional, physical and or spiritual realms.  How we (in general terms) achieve it departs from formal description or class, into individualizm.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShiftedJewel
When every alternative lifestyle is bunched together with BDSM not only does it change the context of what BDSM is, but takes away from the individualism of other fetishes. Just because someone enjoys cross-dressing does not make them a sub, slave, bottom, top, dominant or switch (unless they are one and cross-dressing is an additional fetish, which isn't always the case), it simply makes them a cross-dresser and to lump it in with BDSM implies that there is more to it then that.
All of these point out part of the issue at hand. Many discussions end up with the statement "It means whatever you want it to mean". Part of the reasoning behind this is because in our melting pot of BDSMers and sort of BDSMers, the topics must encompass a broader spectrum of lifestyle choices than originally envisioned under the BDSM umbrella. Several times I have seen someone defend themselve's in a post, stating that the only reason they chose "X" as what they are, is because there were no choices that described them. I am wondering if that may be because they didn't fall under a commonly accepted BDSM category at all, but were trying to fit into the group somewhat like the safety in numbers analogy.
   I can't help thinking it's somewhat like a plumber showing up at an electrician's convention, yes they deal with a utility, yes they are a professional, yes they use tools, yes there are many similarities, but an electrician they are not. Their work (think of this as lifestyle) is going to encompass different idiosyncrasies, terms and work habits...thus, they will feel like they belong in a way, but they know (and everyone else does as well) that they are really adapting because there is no plumbers convention going on at the time. Discussions will be difficult, getting someone to understand their views will be hard, the language will be different.
   This is not unlike some of the discussions we see here, when someone with an alternative fetish ot two or someone just into the sexual kink, tries to mingle about in the context of BDSM (Bondage, Discipline, Sadism & Masochism).  

And no..I'm not really taking a side here, but many of the points brought up do seem to bring awareness that we have become the label of choice for those on the edge (or over it). Perhaps that is because there is no other place for them....but by associating into this grouping, are they unfairly being expected to fit. Is the expectation there that they exhibit many of the other perversions that they may really have no desire for. By welcoming them with open arms, are we really creating a fish out of water?




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