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Universal Healthcare Now! - 9/20/2006 10:43:00 AM   
Chaingang


Posts: 1727
Joined: 10/24/2005
Status: offline 		"Most Working Adults Shopping For Individual Insurance Turned Down Or Found It Too Costly, Report Says"
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=51931
or
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/printerfriendlynews.php?newsid=51931

*Two in five people with individual coverage spend at least 5% of their incomes on premiums, compared with one in seven who have employer-sponsored coverage;

*More than half of people with individual coverage pay at least $3,000 annually in premiums, and about one-third paid at least $6,000 annually;

*One-third of people with individual coverage have to pay $1,000 out-of-pocket each year before coverage takes effect;

*People with individual coverage tend to have higher levels of dissatisfaction with their health plans than those with other types of coverage;

*People with individual coverage are more likely than those with other types of coverage to report that they went without needed health care or prescription drugs because of prohibitive out-of-pocket costs; and

*One in five people with high-deductible health plans have taken on credit card debt to pay medical bills, compared with 8% of people with lower-deductible plans.

-----

Where does it all go? Some would argue that the rise in both jobs and profit in the medical industries is one of the things currently propping up the U.S. economy and making it look better than it really is.

I can't believe that this is how people want to live - literally in fear of injury or illness, possible bankruptcy, etc.

Newsflash: The insurance industry and HMOs would love to take your premiums and provide very low grade service in return.

For those in other countries looking for proof of how stupid the average American really is - look no further.

_____________________________

"Everything flows, nothing stands still." (Πάντα ῥεῖ καὶ οὐδὲν μένει) - Heraclitus
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RE: Universal Healthcare Now! - 9/20/2006 10:55:10 AM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		LOL Please Uncle Sugar I will trade freedom for healthcare. And especially I'll trade someone elses money for it.

That difference between the costs for Individual and Company provided could be closed entirely if the Individual healthcare premiums were counted as pre tax like Employer provided is.  And it's a simpler fix.
Wanna see what Universal Healthcare in the US would look like Visit a VA Hospital, still want the government to do it???


(in reply to Chaingang)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Universal Healthcare Now! - 9/20/2006 11:06:48 AM   
Chaingang


Posts: 1727
Joined: 10/24/2005
Status: offline 		Yeah, because giving the insurance industry and HMOs has proved such a great thing. Thanks for making my point for me, Archer. Ladies and gentlemen, I give you proof of my last line. Here's a guy that probably barely scratches out a living but because he thinks he's going to make it rich any day now he thinks the rethugs are his friends, and this while they pick his pockets for what little he has.

Newsflash: Economic movement between the classes is just as bad in the U.S. as it is in the U.K. - possibly even worse. Chances are you ain't going anywhere, buddy!

< Message edited by Chaingang -- 9/20/2006 11:07:12 AM >

_____________________________

"Everything flows, nothing stands still." (Πάντα ῥεῖ καὶ οὐδὲν μένει) - Heraclitus

(in reply to Archer)
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RE: Universal Healthcare Now! - 9/20/2006 11:06:58 AM   
KenDckey


Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline 		Please   Don't take me to the VA.   Get a gun and shoot me first and put me out of my missery.

I don't like the current HMO system but I also don't want universal health care.   I want what I was promised when I joined the Army in 1966.  If you stay till retirement we will care for you for life.   Where is that now?  

(in reply to Archer)
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RE: Universal Healthcare Now! - 9/20/2006 11:20:46 AM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		LOL such insite Chain LOL

What an ass to try to tell me hat my situation is, It couldn't possibly be that our views just differ that I am plenty well informed about what the situation is. That I simply prefer a fix that would solve a good portion of the problem BEFORE you decide to have the government take over healthcare. No I must be someone who has had the wool pulled over my eyes.

What an ass



(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Universal Healthcare Now! - 9/20/2006 11:23:23 AM   
toservez


Posts: 1733
Joined: 9/7/2006
From: All over now in Minnesota
Status: offline 		I work in the medical field and there is not one problem that is driving the costs up. The biggest problem is everyone from the medical field, lawyers and insurance companies have zero incentive to control costs and all of us get rich in the process. Medical people get sued, insurance company settles, raises rates to medical people who pass it on to the customer. Everyone gets richer as the percentage of the increase revenue is pocketed. Hospitals who cry poor are only poor because everyone is paid an obnoxious amount of money. We have secretaries at our hospital making more then a 100k but they have been there a long time and they work for an important doctor type stuff. We have first year residinets debating whether to buy or rent a 500k condo. Hell, I am overpaid. What we do others cannot due and/or do not understand so it becomes sacred and free market principals do not hold up.

If you want to try to fix the system within, people actually have to vote in severe tort reforms and get some regulations on insurance companies and hospitals. Even then good luck.

I am all for universal healthcare personally. I have to laugh or cry depending on my mood when people bring up the subject who are against it. Often these are the same people who wrap themselves up in the American flag and blindly talk how much better America is compared to all other countries and then this subject comes up and all of a sudden the greatest country in the history of the world is not capable of desiginng a system that would work and point to the problems but never the good things about other "inferior" countries who have universal healthcare. If we are so much better how come we cannot do better in this? It is a contradiction that always confuses me. Are we a can due or can't do country?


(in reply to Archer)
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RE: Universal Healthcare Now! - 9/20/2006 11:35:42 AM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		The #1 thing making personal nsurance  tax deductable would help with is it would make the insurance companies more answerable to the actual consummer instead of to the consumer's employer. That would force two major issues, customer service (lacking in the HMO programs) and competition for customers which now they only fear when they upset the HR dept of a company.

It's not a total fix but it would go a long way towrds making the changes we need to make.

Tort reform is another nessisary issue to address, the need for the latest and greatest equipment to be used EVERY time is based on fear of lawsuits. Whan deciding between a MRI or an Xray how often is the MRI decided on even in a basic case just so they don't get sued.
Then you have the juries who see the injured party and then see the insurance company and rather than finding for the insurance company they feel sorry for the person and find for them even when it was darwin at work that got them hurt and the insuredcompany or person did nothing to contribute other than just happening to be there.

(in reply to toservez)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Universal Healthcare Now! - 9/20/2006 11:36:34 AM   
KenDckey


Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline 		My ex after she retired from healthcare had a greater income than I did counting both my military retirement and municipal income combined. 

(in reply to toservez)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Universal Healthcare Now! - 9/20/2006 11:45:49 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		It seems to me that if an American has a serious health problem and no insurance then arrange a trip to the UK and get knocked down by a bus. That should be easy because you all drive on the wrong side of the road, so just look the way you normally do when stepping off the pavement, sidewalk to you lot. Then while they are looking at your injuries they will probably sort out any other problems as well. All free I might add.

Of course you might return home missing a limb or two, but at least you will be reasonably healthy.
Hope that helps.

(in reply to toservez)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Universal Healthcare Now! - 9/20/2006 12:10:56 PM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		"That I simply prefer a fix that would solve a good portion of the problem BEFORE you decide to have the government take over healthcare."

*my italics added*

i think the main idea of universal healthcare is that it would reach everyone, not just a 'good portion'. Your point about paying for it though is an honest ideological one. Some of us feel that the relatively wealthy can afford a bit of tax to make sure that the children of the poor don't suffer...others think that poor children being denied things like transplants or post operative therapy is a small price to pay for being able to keep another couple of dollars in their pocket. Pay your money and make your choice.

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Universal Healthcare Now! - 9/20/2006 12:19:34 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		I've always happily paid my tax for a decent health service and the one time I needed it, I desperately needed it and it was first class. My friend who lives in California and is pretty affluent and has insurance said if he had such a condition as I had he would be on the first plane back to blighty, not because he doesn't trust the standards of American health care but because it would break him financially.

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
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RE: Universal Healthcare Now! - 9/20/2006 1:13:53 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

"That I simply prefer a fix that would solve a good portion of the problem BEFORE you decide to have the government take over healthcare."

*my italics added*

i think the main idea of universal healthcare is that it would reach everyone, not just a 'good portion'. Your point about paying for it though is an honest ideological one. Some of us feel that the relatively wealthy can afford a bit of tax to make sure that the children of the poor don't suffer...others think that poor children being denied things like transplants or post operative therapy is a small price to pay for being able to keep another couple of dollars in their pocket. Pay your money and make your choice.


See we are less apart than it apears at first, I'm not against having a Medicare system to take care fof those who can't do it themselves. I simply want a couple asic steps taken to reduce those who need it.

Make Insurance for individual purchasers tax deductable, certainly that reduces the "Uninsured" directly and I would contend that the downstream effect of the competition would make it affordable for more and more, to be able to afford to insure themselves.
After you have reduced to those that really cannot help themselves then the problem is in a magnitude that I don't mind paying taxes for. I simpy want people to do as much for themseves as they can. Part of it from a phiolosophic standpoint, "He who directly pays the bill is who the system answers to." Is a truism. If the Government pays the bill then the system answers to the government.

I simply beleive the people are best served when the government removes barriers to success, instead of doing it for us. And Universal Healthcare is doing it for us not emoving the barriers to us doing it for ourselves.


(in reply to philosophy)
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RE: Universal Healthcare Now! - 9/20/2006 1:25:07 PM   
Chaingang


Posts: 1727
Joined: 10/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer
Part of it from a phiolosophic standpoint, "He who directly pays the bill is who the system answers to." Is a truism.


Hilarious!

Medical service is a seller's market - and you got shit for bargaining room when you are on your ass. I am sure an attitude of "Sir, your prices are too high - I shall have to take my custom elsewhere!" will serve you well while you are bleeding to death. Such a scenario presumes consciousness, so far there is little evidence of that.




_____________________________

"Everything flows, nothing stands still." (Πάντα ῥεῖ καὶ οὐδὲν μένει) - Heraclitus

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Universal Healthcare Now! - 9/20/2006 1:26:08 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		 Archer said.....
I'm not against having a Medicare system to take care of those who can't do it themselves.

This applies to 90% of the average earning population if they become seriously ill/disabled.
For example, how would most people cope with the problems experienced by Superman. Christopher Reeve.

Adding my little jocular aside you could say that you would have never got in to that mess because you wouldn't be able to afford to run a horse !

Conservative wealthy Americans are right. The rest of the developed world is wrong with regard to state financed healthcare.

Just to cheer you up a bit I forgot to mention the financial difficulties that crop up as your health begins to fail as you get older ! Best met by across  society contributions in my opinion.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 9/20/2006 1:48:17 PM >

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Universal Healthcare Now! - 9/20/2006 1:44:03 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		More Government That's always the answer with some folks, yet they are the same ones who don't trust that the government has done a good job with anything else and they want to give them more power and more responsibility???

You really think that the government would do anybetter job with Healthcare than they have with The Environment, or Maintaining the infrastructure of the highway system, or Iraq, or middle east policy?
Remember if you give them the power of Healthcare they make the decissions on what is and isn't covered, and that means there will be times when the other party will be making the policies.


(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Universal Healthcare Now! - 9/20/2006 2:20:39 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Archer..I assume you have no objection to the Federally initiated/financed  Interstate Highway system.Lobbied for incidently by the private enterprise automobile industry !!! I take it you are somewhat satisfied with the results of Federal expenditure on the armed services, why then are you so anti Federal involvement in a resource as major as the health of the nation ?

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 9/20/2006 2:21:49 PM >

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Universal Healthcare Now! - 9/20/2006 2:27:41 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		I'll give you that, decisions have to be made as to what is covered and what isn't and what takes priority and what doesn't. Annoying, none life threatening complaints take the back seat but you can always insure yourself for them in the private sector or you can pay cash for private treatment if you so desire. However, universal healthcare comes into its own when you are seriously ill, need emergency treatment or have a long illness. As Chaingang mentioned, you can't make demands when you're on your ass with a life threatening illness and you can't earn money and the bills keep rising, you end up getting what you are given. Paying for healthcare through tax isn't so bad in such a situation.

As for not being able to trust government with healthcare. I think (but pretty certain) all western Europe pays less for healthcare than America and all western Europeans are covered. The average American pays twice as much as the average Brit for healthcare and I haven't checked but I would be surprised to find it isn't similar for other western European countries. Not all have the same systems so costs vary a little and all have their own problems but none of the problems are as bad as the American system has. State of the art healthcare is meaningless if you can't afford it, you might as well live in Africa.

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Universal Healthcare Now! - 9/20/2006 4:31:09 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: toservez

I work in the medical field and there is not one problem that is driving the costs up. The biggest problem is everyone from the medical field, lawyers and insurance companies have zero incentive to control costs and all of us get rich in the process. Medical people get sued, insurance company settles, raises rates to medical people who pass it on to the customer. Everyone gets richer as the percentage of the increase revenue is pocketed. Hospitals who cry poor are only poor because everyone is paid an obnoxious amount of money. We have secretaries at our hospital making more then a 100k but they have been there a long time and they work for an important doctor type stuff. We have first year residinets debating whether to buy or rent a 500k condo. Hell, I am overpaid. What we do others cannot due and/or do not understand so it becomes sacred and free market principals do not hold up.

If you want to try to fix the system within, people actually have to vote in severe tort reforms and get some regulations on insurance companies and hospitals. Even then good luck.

I am all for universal healthcare personally. I have to laugh or cry depending on my mood when people bring up the subject who are against it. Often these are the same people who wrap themselves up in the American flag and blindly talk how much better America is compared to all other countries and then this subject comes up and all of a sudden the greatest country in the history of the world is not capable of desiginng a system that would work and point to the problems but never the good things about other "inferior" countries who have universal healthcare. If we are so much better how come we cannot do better in this? It is a contradiction that always confuses me. Are we a can due or can't do country?



Hello A/all,

I suspect a major problem with the idea of Universal Healthcare has little or nothing to do with HMOs.  Pharma companies and large medical providers who keep major lobbying groups in Washington would rather not be forced to negotiate with the US Government over costs for procedures and medicines because this might cut in to their profit margin.

As far as PPOs and HMOs are concerned, I love mine.  My union negotiates every contract and the shipping companies have learned that the union will refuse to go along with any attempt to cut back on our level of healthcare.  I had a lovely chiropractic visit with a deep tissue massage yesterday, paid for by the shipping companies.  Thank you, Harry Bridges, for writing our union by-laws to be 100% democratic (1 rank and file member, 1 vote) in nature, with term limits, and the only union representatives allowed in the door are elected from the rank and file.

Just me, etc.

Sinergy


_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to toservez)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Universal Healthcare Now! - 9/21/2006 12:39:45 AM   
SirKenin


Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline 		I still can not believe that the US does not have healthcare.  I have a friend that owes $15,000 for medical expenses and she can not afford to pay them.  She is sinking under the load, working three jobs 7 days a week trying to keep up.  That, in My opinion, is ridiculous.

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(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Universal Healthcare Now! - 9/21/2006 5:35:28 AM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		"Archer..I assume you have no objection to the Federally initiated/financed  Interstate Highway system.Lobbied for incidently by the private enterprise automobile industry !!! I take it you are somewhat satisfied with the results of Federal expenditure on the armed services, why then are you so anti Federal involvement in a resource as major as the health of the nation ?"


.....most coherant post ever.......wow

(in reply to SirKenin)
Profile   Post #: 20
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