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RE: Left wing media. - 9/23/2006 1:36:32 AM   
SirKenin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SubNY278

That might not be Canada's rationale, but what about other countries?


I am not defending the actions of other countries though.   I can only tell you what their position on war might be based upon the partisanship of their government.  I am strictly telling you what I as a centrist believe.

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RE: Left wing media. - 9/23/2006 1:37:04 AM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		I've got to agree, it takes generations to get over a war. The only exception I can think of is where victory was total and the defeated populations realised they were on the wrong side and had to make a break with the past and reinvent themselves and that was Germany and Japan after WWII but the world as a whole had to pay a huge price to get to that situation. Wars had to ruin the continent of Europe for people to realize there had to be a better way and working together was best. It still took another 40 years for the continent to become unified.

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RE: Left wing media. - 9/23/2006 1:38:11 AM   
SirKenin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

History has borne out that self-proclaimed "left-wing" governments have had a crack at imperialism.

But, do you really consider, say, the old Soviet Union to be left-wing? They may have proclaimed themselves to be the people's Government but for my money they were as fascist and totalitarian as Nazi Germany.

The ideals of the Soviet Union were far removed from the ideals of the revolutionaries. Proclaiming themselves Communist served the purpose of creating a myth they were a people's Government and it suited the West because it gave us a bogeyman.

However, regardless of political ideology, humanitarianism, internationalism, and social justice are constant ideals of the left. I would suggest that those who don't share these core values are far more in tune with the right but can't admit it to themselves (possibly because of the extremist factions in the right that they do not want to identify with, but, better to have principles than to live a lie).

Regards


Communism and Marxism are both known as radical left-wing politics.

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Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Left wing media. - 9/23/2006 1:42:45 AM   
Kedicat


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

War may be inhumane....but does that mean it is unnecessary ?
What should the Soviet Union have done when invaded by Germany in WW2 ?


I was going to cite WW II as an example, but I figured that Afghanistan would be sufficient.  But now that you mention it, look at Canada's involvement there as well.  Was it to go in and occupy?  Was it to go in and save the oil from the savages?  Was it to establish a Canada-friendly government?  Was it so we could strengthen our economy?  Or was it to save innocent countries from a mad man (albeit a brilliant man) and restore peace and order?

Those are rhetorical questions of course.


After WW II Canada made a fast and HUGE demilitarization. The job was done. Our interests served in protecting and freeing. Canada is often a joke militarily, even amongst Canadians. But when it is really needed, we have done a big share per capita. I am proud that we do not have a standing military of size to invade and conquer. We do need to improve the ability to defend and to contribute to REAL UN needs. A military in any country should only be of size to defend. If that were world law, none would need more. With a portion at hand to keep the rule held.
If no country had a military of size to attack and occupy, no country would need more than military of defence.
The rest is diplomacy, commerce and law.

(in reply to SirKenin)
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RE: Left wing media. - 9/23/2006 1:45:15 AM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		Kedicat,

We are in the realms of defining what is left-wing to understand the actions of left-wing Governments. My definition of the left is not a totalitarian, elitist, war-mongering Government such as the Soviet Union - for me, such Governments are fascist and give themselves the left-wing tag out of convenience.

When I think left-wing politics I think of core values such as humanitarianism, internationalism and social justice rather than a compartmentalised ideology or the tags people want to stick to the left to support their agenda. So, I'm struggling to think of any genuine left-wing Governments from world history.

Out of interest, can you give an example of the aggressor and the victim?

Regards

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Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Left wing media. - 9/23/2006 1:48:56 AM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		Kenin,

Do you understand that the Soviet Union was a regime/a form of Government whereas communism is an ideology?

Regards

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Left wing media. - 9/23/2006 1:52:23 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

But, do you really consider, say, the old Soviet Union to be left-wing? They may have proclaimed themselves to be the people's Government but for my money they were as fascist and totalitarian as Nazi Germany.



Yes. The problem has little to do with right or left but ideology. When ideology becomes a belief rather than a philosophical and intellectual guide, people become blind.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Left wing media. - 9/23/2006 1:59:44 AM   
Kedicat


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Kedicat,

We are in the realms of defining what is left-wing to understand the actions of left-wing Governments. My definition of the left is not a totalitarian, elitist, war-mongering Government such as the Soviet Union - for me, such Governments are fascist and give themselves the left-wing tag out of convenience.

When I think left-wing politics I think of core values such as humanitarianism, internationalism and social justice rather than a compartmentalised ideology or the tags people want to stick to the left to support their agenda. So, I'm struggling to think of any genuine left-wing Governments from world history.

Out of interest, can you give an example of the aggressor and the victim?

Regards


I agree.
Right wing is an abused term as well. I get lazy and don't specify extreme right or left. I am just as worried by extreme on both sides. Totalitarism can call themselves anything they like, but they are always evil.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Left wing media. - 9/23/2006 2:06:46 AM   
Kedicat


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Kedicat,

We are in the realms of defining what is left-wing to understand the actions of left-wing Governments. My definition of the left is not a totalitarian, elitist, war-mongering Government such as the Soviet Union - for me, such Governments are fascist and give themselves the left-wing tag out of convenience.

When I think left-wing politics I think of core values such as humanitarianism, internationalism and social justice rather than a compartmentalised ideology or the tags people want to stick to the left to support their agenda. So, I'm struggling to think of any genuine left-wing Governments from world history.

Out of interest, can you give an example of the aggressor and the victim?

Regards


If you mean justifiable war in the aggreso victim question. There is the obvious Nazi Germany v everyone. I don't even consider WW1 justifiable as aggression or defence, the whole thing was a political preening clusterF from start to almost finish.
In very broad terms, if you cross your border to attack, without military attack upon you, I say you are aggresser. There are extenuating circumstance of the other using illegal unfair tactics to attack your country in other ways. ( Not violence ). Sometimes a military strike could be justified, but not occupation or annexation.
This all is cut and dried far more than our messy world. Just broad thoughts.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Left wing media. - 9/23/2006 2:06:57 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

When I think left-wing politics I think of core values such as humanitarianism, internationalism and social justice rather than a compartmentalised ideology or the tags people want to stick to the left to support their agenda. So, I'm struggling to think of any genuine left-wing Governments from world history.



That's because you are rationalizing.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Left wing media. - 9/23/2006 2:15:14 AM   
Kedicat


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Kedicat,

We are in the realms of defining what is left-wing to understand the actions of left-wing Governments. My definition of the left is not a totalitarian, elitist, war-mongering Government such as the Soviet Union - for me, such Governments are fascist and give themselves the left-wing tag out of convenience.

When I think left-wing politics I think of core values such as humanitarianism, internationalism and social justice rather than a compartmentalised ideology or the tags people want to stick to the left to support their agenda. So, I'm struggling to think of any genuine left-wing Governments from world history.

Out of interest, can you give an example of the aggressor and the victim?

Regards


If you count covert warfare. There are all the democratically elected governments that other countries have been unhappy with and killed. And that isn't just US covert. All countries have delved into those dirty deeds. And even economical warfare. Governments toppled because easy money might stop flowing to other countries.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Left wing media. - 9/23/2006 2:17:02 AM   
Kedicat


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

When I think left-wing politics I think of core values such as humanitarianism, internationalism and social justice rather than a compartmentalised ideology or the tags people want to stick to the left to support their agenda. So, I'm struggling to think of any genuine left-wing Governments from world history.



That's because you are rationalizing.


I would have liked to see what Cuba had become without the embargoes and such. They have done amazingly well in spite of that pressure and choking.


< Message edited by Kedicat -- 9/23/2006 2:18:36 AM >

(in reply to meatcleaver)
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RE: Left wing media. - 9/23/2006 2:19:27 AM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		That's because you are rationalizing.

Thanks very much.

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Left wing media. - 9/23/2006 2:29:36 AM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		Kedicat,

The Nazi Germany example - Britain, the US, the Soviet Union were not in it for the love of Poland or notions of freedom. All were protecting their own economic interests.

I take your point though that there are aggressors and exploited - the British Government has done a fair old job over the years in various parts of the world.

Regards


_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Left wing media. - 9/23/2006 2:42:42 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

The Nazi Germany example - Britain, the US, the Soviet Union were not in it for the love of Poland or notions of freedom. All were protecting their own economic interests.



No they weren't. Britain declared war on Germany because of its invasion of Poland. If Britain was protecting its economic interests it would not have declared war and allowed Germany to be a continental power. Britain had little economic interest in Europe, its economic interest was in world trade. There was no way Germany could have invaded and occupied Britain and this was known by the British at the time. Britain had the most sophisticated air defence in the world and a navy capable of defending its waters. Britain was producing two planes to Germany's one and the British had better planes and planes that could communicate with each other unlike the Germans. Declaring war on Germany meant Britain was willing to gamble because it saw Germany as an international piriah.

The Soviet Union fought because it was attacked and had little option.

Get over your tunnel vision of everything is for economic interest. WWII definitely wasn't.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
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RE: Left wing media. - 9/23/2006 3:17:48 AM   
SirKenin


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From: Barrie, ON Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Kenin,

Do you understand that the Soviet Union was a regime/a form of Government whereas communism is an ideology?

Regards


The Soviet Union was a socialist State, actually, that was dissolved in 1991.  A union of Soviet Republics.  To see what I mean, The United States of America is a Federal Republic.

Communism was an ideology and a politic with which the Union was governed.  Communism is classified as radical left-wing politics.  I can provide you references if you so require.

Left-wingers hate the association with communism and Marxism, so it is a classic tactic to deny it and disassociate themselves with it, but that does not make it any less true.  You must be a lefty.

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Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Left wing media. - 9/23/2006 3:21:29 AM   
philosophy


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Status: offline 		"The Soviet Union was a socialist State, actually, that was dissolved in 1991"
"Communism was an ideology and a politic with which the Union was governed."

...er.....so which was it? communism or socialism? Or are you simply confirming that all right wingers keep banging on about communists whenever anyone suggests something slightly to the left of Genghis Khan?

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Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Left wing media. - 9/23/2006 3:30:33 AM   
SirKenin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kedicat

After WW II Canada made a fast and HUGE demilitarization. The job was done. Our interests served in protecting and freeing. Canada is often a joke militarily, even amongst Canadians. But when it is really needed, we have done a big share per capita. I am proud that we do not have a standing military of size to invade and conquer. We do need to improve the ability to defend and to contribute to REAL UN needs. A military in any country should only be of size to defend. If that were world law, none would need more. With a portion at hand to keep the rule held.
If no country had a military of size to attack and occupy, no country would need more than military of defence.
The rest is diplomacy, commerce and law.



Precisely.  We did what we had to do and then bolted our tanks to the ground so kids could climb on them and seagulls could shit on them.  Have you ever heard Me and My commentary on the Canadian Armed Forces?  I think I have gone on a little tirade in here once or twice.  About our rowboats, peashooters and blowguns?  Pretty sure it was here.

I think one invading army would not hurt, with a system set in place like the United States has.  I really like the fact that the President does not have the power to send the country into war.  No single person should have that power.  A bipartisan Senate/Security Council with an equally divided floor should be in place to make the decisions.

I think this job could best be left to the United Nations or some similar bipartisan organization.  Everybody could chip in equally, restore order and then go back home.

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Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Left wing media. - 9/23/2006 3:32:21 AM   
SirKenin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

"The Soviet Union was a socialist State, actually, that was dissolved in 1991"
"Communism was an ideology and a politic with which the Union was governed."

...er.....so which was it? communism or socialism? Or are you simply confirming that all right wingers keep banging on about communists whenever anyone suggests something slightly to the left of Genghis Khan?


I do not see what the problem is, unless it is a lacking of your understanding of politics.  Communism and socialism are both left-wing political philosophies condemning capitalism and private ownership.  They go hand in hand.

< Message edited by SirKenin -- 9/23/2006 3:34:31 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Left wing media. - 9/23/2006 3:41:05 AM   
philosophy


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Status: offline 		"I do not see what the problem is, unless it is a lacking of your understanding of politics.  Communism and socialism are both left-wing political philosophies condemning capitalism and private ownership.  They go hand in hand"

....i suggest you actually read Das Kapital........there you'll find that socialism and communism are phases that Marx's ideal society would go through. Communism being the ideal and socialism being the halfway house. The USSR never claimed to be communist, only socialist. These two concepts are only the same thing if you take the view that there are no shades of meaning inside left wing ideologies. If you want to use that logic then you're also going to have to maintain that capitalism is the same as facism.

(in reply to SirKenin)
Profile   Post #: 100
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