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RE: Left wing media. - 9/23/2006 9:53:37 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		http://www.schoolshistory.org.uk/EuropeatWar/britishreadinessforwar.htm

Britain wasn't prepared? Miss the bit about the army, I have already said it was weak but Britain's airforce and navy wasn't.

http://www.schoolshistory.org.uk/EuropeatWar/frenchreadinessforwar.htm

It was German organisation, superior tactics and superior armour that gave Germany the edge in Europe. Its planes were designed for supporting the army and not designed for an invasion of Britain or a extended bombing campaign. Britain had no reason to believe its territory was in danger before the war started.

The argument that you put forward that the war was about economics for Britain doesn't add up.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
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RE: Left wing media. - 9/23/2006 9:56:16 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

You're understanding of this period of history falls short so no point in you and I continuing this discussion.



I have noticed before you take your ball home when you are losing an argument and you say your aren't ideologically driven. Economics is not the sole raison d'etre for being.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
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RE: Left wing media. - 9/23/2006 10:34:07 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Gott in Himmel I have just lost the mother of all messages due to a time out. Basically I agree with meatcleaver anyway so I wasn't adding anything new.

Northern Gent you are using hindsight to make your case. The one about the Germans being on the West Coast of Europe is a gem. That they got there so quickly was totally unexpected. Dont forget the French felt quite secure due to the Maginot line. Nasty Germans didnt go that way though did they. lol

Another point NG, if I do go to University, especially to study History, I will choose one that teaches me how to spell Ribbentrop. Donder und Blitzen.

What saved the Brits. bacon was Japan attacking Pearl Harbour.

Just add this that Hitler thought that if only that old warmonger Churchill could be got rid of, then all would be well between Germany and UK.
AT THE TIME Churchill was under a lot of pressure and this could be the real reason for Hess's day trip to the UK. Who knows.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 9/23/2006 10:43:49 AM >

(in reply to meatcleaver)
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RE: Left wing media. - 9/23/2006 10:36:33 AM   
MrrPete


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quote:

Just last night I was watching a so very left wing report on CNN about Hugo Chavez, on Lou Dobbs tonight (quite the left-winger himself...sarcasm intended).  The report all but called him a terrorist.  While not choosing to take sides or start an argument about Chavez and his politics, that doesn't sound like something a tree-hugging network would report, does it?


Nancy Pelosi called Hugo a thug for what he said of Bush but that doesn't mean she's not a lefty.

Charlie Wrangle also defended the Pres and he's no righty.

You can't deny ones politcal sway by one program.

Every American should be enraged at Chavez's comments [I know some aren't] because his comments insult every American.





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RE: Left wing media. - 9/23/2006 10:38:38 AM   
cuddleheart50


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Status: offline 		Sie waren reindeers, recht?

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RE: Left wing media. - 9/23/2006 10:47:38 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		The problem NG has is that he believes everyone but the left with their core human values, see the world through an economic prism. The fact that Britain might actually take a stand against Germany because it believed in a particular political philosophy or way of life, just doesn't count. The fact is that people outside NG's beloved left, might also have human values on which they are willing to take a stand. Hell, German aggression was as much down to nationalism and national humiliation after WWI. If Germany was rational, it wouldn't have provoked a war because everything was going in its direction without one so much for the theory economics.

EDITED: In fact the German officer class were talking about evening up the score with France as early as 1920. The French occupation of Alsace and its humiliation of Germans in that occupation deepened the resentment the Germans had against France. Nationalism was a huge part of the reasons WWII came about.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 9/23/2006 10:54:28 AM >

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RE: Left wing media. - 9/23/2006 11:12:53 AM   
Lordandmaster


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Status: offline 		If you're truly ENRAGED by every insulting comment that people direct toward America, you can't have much time to do anything else.  That's like the befuddled kid in elementary school who always got sent to the principal's office because all you had to do to get him into a fight was call him a dick.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrrPete

Every American should be enraged at Chavez's comments [I know some aren't] because his comments insult every American.

(in reply to MrrPete)
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RE: Left wing media. - 9/23/2006 11:47:06 AM   
philosophy


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Status: offline 		"Every American should be enraged at Chavez's comments [I know some aren't] because his comments insult every American."


...i've seen the quotes where he called Bush 'Satan'.......can you provide a link to where he insulted every American?.....i'm sure he didn't do so by name, but when did he damn an entire population?

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
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RE: Left wing media. - 9/23/2006 12:33:33 PM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		MC, the reason I'm not interested is because it is clear from your posts that you do not have an understanding of WW2, causes and consequences. Thus, it's a pointless debate. It would be like me challening a board member on philosophy - I would be completely and massively out of my depth like you are now.

I'm more than happy to discuss that period of history as I studied it at university and have an interest in it but only with someone with a reasonable grasp to make it worthwhile so if LadyEllen returns then maybe as at first sight she appears to have some knowledge.

As for the "beloved left" comment - dear me, MC, sticks and stones eh?

Regards


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RE: Left wing media. - 9/23/2006 12:34:46 PM   
SirKenin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

...i didn't want to paste something that has already been pasted but SK, as you appear to be selectively blind to things here it is.......
"The Soviet Union and other countries ruled by Communist Parties are often described as 'Communist states' with 'state socialist' economic bases. This usage indicates that they proclaim that they have realized part of the socialist program by abolishing private control of the means of production and establishing state control over the economy; however, they do not declare themselves truly communist, as they have not established communal ownership of property."

...i have italicised the relevant points. Please try and understand SK. When you imply that communism and socialism are the same thing, you are wrong.  If all you intend to imply is that socialism and communism are both 'left' wing ideologies, then maybe there is some small grain of truth in it. However, of what use is such a broad statement?......Fascism and capitalism are both 'right' of centre ideologies.....does that mean they are the same thing too? i've mentioned Das Kapital a couple of times, you do know what i'm talking about don't you?





This is the point I was trying to make earlier.  It does not matter if they declared themselves communist.  What matters is that they fell under the definition of communist as defined by your own link.

What also matters is that communism is a branch of socialism, also outlined in your own link.  And what also matters to me, and makes me laugh, is that left-wing politics also falls under the umbrella of socialism, which you and Northern Gent fall under (and others).

See, you can declare yourself anything you like.   Like others in here that would like to declare themselves a centrist, when clearly they fall under the definition of left-wing (extremists in some cases).

You can not deny the evidence provided in your own link.  If you do not like it, you never should have provided the link to begin with.

Just to end your arguing, here is a Google search for you.  It defines Russia as being communist. 

http://www.google.com/search?q=was+russia+communist%3F

Here is the dictionary definition of communism, clearly showing us that Russia was a communist state:

Communism

  • A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarian party holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people.
  • The Marxist-Leninist version of Communist doctrine that advocates the overthrow of capitalism by the revolution of the proletariat.
    http://www.answers.com/topic/communism

    So, information in your book notwithstanding, the point has been made and there is no sense taking this any further.  You are clearly incorrect.

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    • Profile   Post #: 130
    RE: Left wing media. - 9/23/2006 12:41:35 PM   
    SubNY278


    Posts: 50
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    Status: offline     		SirKenin, you really seem to be good at looking up Wikipedia entries but seem to be completely lacking in common sense and in realizing what others are trying to say.  No one doubts that the communist ideology is a left-leaning one.  Despite the rhetoric, however, regimes like the Soviet Union more closely resembled a right-wing, fascist form of government than a left-leaning one.  It was the dictatorship of the proleteriat, an intermediate stage before true communism.

    That the USSR never went forward beyond that stage is a given, and had the USSR not fallen, it probably never would have.  If anything, in its later years, it began to embrace some private industry and western ideas (ever heard of glasnost and perestroika?) but remained very much a totalitarian state with little to do with the theory of communism except for the lack (for the most part) of private property.

    (in reply to SirKenin)
    Profile   Post #: 131
    RE: Left wing media. - 9/23/2006 1:18:58 PM   
    seeksfemslave


    Posts: 4011
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    Status: offline     		SirKenin is quite right in the point he makes about Communism being an extreme form of Socialism, I expect that is why he has ruffled the feathers of the naive, I suppose Socialists, like NorthernGent and Philosophy.

    These naifs appear to believe in the perfectability of human society, of course everyone would have to behave as they see fit, which is more akin to a religious outlook than a political standpoint

    Apologies for thread deviation but I just leapt in when I saw the posts that were being made.





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    Profile   Post #: 132
    RE: Left wing media. - 9/23/2006 1:21:24 PM   
    meatcleaver


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

    MC, the reason I'm not interested is because it is clear from your posts that you do not have an understanding of WW2, causes and consequences. Thus, it's a pointless debate. It would be like me challening a board member on philosophy - I would be completely and massively out of my depth like you are now.

    I'm more than happy to discuss that period of history as I studied it at university and have an interest in it but only with someone with a reasonable grasp to make it worthwhile so if LadyEllen returns then maybe as at first sight she appears to have some knowledge.

    As for the "beloved left" comment - dear me, MC, sticks and stones eh?

    Regards



    I would complain to your university for a crap education. The idea that WWII was totally down to economics is a load of balls. I suppose you are going to say the holocaust was down to economics next and not racism. Yes, the USSR and Germany were expansionist but they were as much driven by ideology, racism and nationalism as economics. The idea that Britain declared war for economic reasons is plain clap trap, they had nothing economically to gain by declaring war. No one knew what the German army was capable of in 1939 and their navy was not as powerful as Britain's. Britain was worried about German ideology and the advancement of a dictatorship at the heart of Europe. Economics does come into that but to consider everyone was economically driven is nonsense and totally irrational. You are looking at history through the wrong end of a telescope and making the facts fit your argument. You are using hindsight rather than trying to view the world as it was in 1939.

    Do you ever consider that people might be driven by things other than economics? You have a very Marxist view of the world if you think so and one that is widely rejected.

    < Message edited by meatcleaver -- 9/23/2006 1:28:27 PM >

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    RE: Left wing media. - 9/23/2006 1:48:41 PM   
    meatcleaver


    Posts: 9030
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    Status: offline     		The only strength in your argument is that all countries have an economy so whatever they do they can be accused of doing it for economic reasons. No doubt if Britain didn't declare war on Germany and by chance we were having this same argument, no doubt you would accuse Britain of staying out of the war for economic reasons. You can't fail. The fact is that whatever any of the countries do, they can all be accused of doing it for economic reasons. If they didn't do something, again, they didn't do it for economic reasons. The poverty of your argument is that you ideologically believe in economic motivation, you don't even attempt to understand the zeitgeist of the period.

    (in reply to NorthernGent)
    Profile   Post #: 134
    RE: Left wing media. - 9/23/2006 2:08:52 PM   
    LadyEllen


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    From: Stourport-England
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

    MC, the reason I'm not interested is because it is clear from your posts that you do not have an understanding of WW2, causes and consequences. Thus, it's a pointless debate. It would be like me challening a board member on philosophy - I would be completely and massively out of my depth like you are now.

    I'm more than happy to discuss that period of history as I studied it at university and have an interest in it but only with someone with a reasonable grasp to make it worthwhile so if LadyEllen returns then maybe as at first sight she appears to have some knowledge.

    As for the "beloved left" comment - dear me, MC, sticks and stones eh?

    Regards



    Thank you for the vote of confidence - yes, I've studied a lot about WWII and must have watched every programme ever made about it on cable TV too. I blame my dad for it.........

    But as regards this thread, "left wing media", I'm not sure its all that much to do with it? And it seems to have moved on too.

    But thanks.
    E

    (in reply to NorthernGent)
    Profile   Post #: 135
    RE: Left wing media. - 9/23/2006 4:24:06 PM   
    Kedicat


    Posts: 251
    Joined: 3/13/2005
    Status: offline     		Back to the thread.
    Of course all of us here are on various points of the line from extreme left and right. Many will consider their spot on that line to be centrist.
    So to consider what is left and right media, we have to look at the extremes of the media line, not where we might place ourselves. I also wished the judgement to be on major, in your face media. That would I suppose include movies shown in major chain theatres.
    People that are curious and willing to search can always broaden their information base. Sometimes finding the more extreme fringes on both sides. Also finding very small gems around the center that stick to hard facts without bling at the expense of becoming major media.
    Of course, which country you are in makes a difference. And some countries have more global reach with their media.

    Looking at the volume and the extremes of the major media in the US. I say it is currently much more right wing volume. In my country, things are shifting right more slowly. But we are very exposed to the US media which seems to make it more right in general.
    As to quality. The larger volume of right wing media is more repetition than informing. The moderate left being more meaty in facts and delving into new areas. Reinforcement versus revealing.

    (in reply to Kedicat)
    Profile   Post #: 136
    RE: Left wing media. - 9/24/2006 2:37:45 AM   
    meatcleaver


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

    But as regards this thread, "left wing media", I'm not sure its all that much to do with it? And it seems to have moved on too.



    How one views such events such as WWII or any other historical event does differ across the political spectrum. The more left one goes the more one tends to have a Marxist view of the world were economics is the primary motivation. NG obviously looks at history through an economic prism and demotes ideology, philosophy and culture to insignificant motivating factors. If Marx was right and so NG, we would all be living in leftwing countries having socialist core values rammed down our throats. Marx got it wrong and he got economics as the primary human motivating factor wrong. Are muslim extremists motivated by economics? While economics is one of the reasons that created the conditions for unrest, it is not the sole reason and probably not the main reason. Western cultural hegamony is one of the reasons, as is a stagnating culture and religious zealotry but pure economics? No. If you were being rational about economics (which is a pseudo science anyway), most countries would be doing things differently. People are multi-faceted and are not purely economically driven. As I said before, the strength of NG's argument is that all countries have an economy, the poverty of his argument is that it reduces other motivating factors to insignificance. If Hitler was rational and solely economically driven, he would have done things a lot different.

    Getting back on topic, the more leftwing media would have us analysing the world in pure economic terms and the right would have us distracted by religion and danger to our culture. To an extent they do this but people are more complex and subversive and don't respond as they should to cues, not even leaders do. The future is unpredictable so looking back at history as though it was entirely predictable is a nonsense.

    < Message edited by meatcleaver -- 9/24/2006 2:49:05 AM >

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    RE: Left wing media. - 10/13/2006 7:09:43 PM   
    Lordandmaster


    Posts: 10943
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    Status: offline     		An informative article for those of you who still think Hollywood is left-wing:

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20061013/ts_csm/lfaithfilm

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

    Of course you'd be fried alive if you ever suggested that Hollywood played up to RIGHT-WING stereotypes...

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    RE: Left wing media. - 10/13/2006 7:35:29 PM   
    WyrdRich


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    Status: offline     		     This would seem to strongly suggest that Hollywood IS very left-wing LAM.  One studio is opening a division to exploit a completely neglected market, the religious right.  Doesn't the fact that they need a special division for this suggest they are generally way the hell left?

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    Profile   Post #: 139
    RE: Left wing media. - 10/13/2006 8:56:51 PM   
    Lordandmaster


    Posts: 10943
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    Status: offline     		No, it suggests what I've said all along: that they do what makes money, and nothing else.

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    Profile   Post #: 140
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