RE: Left wing media. (Full Version)

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CrappyDom -> RE: Left wing media. (10/14/2006 5:51:22 AM)

The German military was grossly underequiped durring WWII, while they had the best designs, they never had the production to truly field them.  They kept every Czech piece of military equipment and not only used it to the end of the war but kept them in production.  They used most of the French armor which was quite advanced.  They were still using horse drawn transports late into the war. 

Remember how many of us thought that GWI would be quite bloody because Saddam's army was impressive on paper?  In hindsight, we should have know, but I for one was quite surprised although I always knew the A10 was a great concept.

As for the invasion of Britain, the only thing that saved her from invasion was her attacks on German cities.  Up until that point the RAF was getting its ass handed to it by the Luftwaffe, it was only when the Germans switched from attacking airfields and instead began bombing London and other cities that the RAF was able to recover and begin being effective.

I haven't read much about the naval issues regarding the invasion but if they had finished off the RAF, the Royal Navy would not have been a threat in the channel, they would have been easy pickings for the excellent German submarines and Schnellboats as well as German land based bombers.  It would have been a turkey shoot for the Germans.

Anytime you concentrate your forces into a confined space you gain combat power at the expense of vulnerability to effective counter attack.  The channel would be perfect ground for the Germans to bring their most effective weapons to bear in a near perfect way against the British.  They would put no boats on the surface so anything that floated would be a target for both submarines and aircraft.  Since the area would be confined, unlike the open ocean, the British would have no manuver room.

Nice thing about invading a country with a devastated ground army and a disarmed civilian population is that you don't need as many troops to occupy it.  Taking England would likely have caused Russia to sue for peace and the world would be a very very different world today.




meatcleaver -> RE: Left wing media. (10/14/2006 6:23:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

As for the invasion of Britain, the only thing that saved her from invasion was her attacks on German cities.  Up until that point the RAF was getting its ass handed to it by the Luftwaffe, it was only when the Germans switched from attacking airfields and instead began bombing London and other cities that the RAF was able to recover and begin being effective.

I haven't read much about the naval issues regarding the invasion but if they had finished off the RAF, the Royal Navy would not have been a threat in the channel, they would have been easy pickings for the excellent German submarines and Schnellboats as well as German land based bombers.  It would have been a turkey shoot for the Germans.



You should read up on the RAF and compare it to the Luftwaffe at the time. You would realise that the RAF was a state of the art fighting machine. It didn't have to rely on ace fighters which the Germans did in the vein of WWI. The RAF was managed like a chess board from the ground and had a coherent strategy and superior tactics to the Germans, having planes in the air only when necessary and attacking only when necessary. The Germans couldn't even communicate with each other in the air when they were escorting bombers and their bombers were not designed for long range carpet bombing and their fighters were always desperately short of fuel over Britain. Britain had the best integrated air defence system in the world at the time, along with some of the best planes. German pilots have left enough comments on how British fighter planes were the best they ever encountered.

Germany tried to bomb Britain into submission (something German pilots soon realised was futile and they were only making pin pricks on London) because Germany realised early on it couldn't invade Britain. There are enough German papers that confirm this. The army wanted to create a narrow tunnel defended by the German navy and airforce as a way to create a beach head. Both the navy and and particularly the airforce said it would be a suicide mission for them and wanted a broad beach head, something which the German army said would be a suicide mission for them. Both the German navy and airforce were outnumbered and outgunned by the British which is why the Germans never made a serious attempt at invading Britain but had several concocted plans that were at best comic. The British army was threadbare, small in number and ilequiped for fighting in Europe but on its own soil they would have been an adequate defence.

The German army had the best Generals in the war and they realised quite early on they could not fight a war on so many fronts and against such great numbers but it was a credit to their skill and ingenuity that they made the allies fight for every inch of land. If it was up to the German Generals, WWII would not have been fought the way it was, it might not have been fought at all but it was their political masters in charge and it was they that lost the war for Germany.




CrappyDom -> RE: Left wing media. (10/14/2006 6:59:07 AM)

Cleaver, for the most part I agree with you in your discussion with NG and was simply pointing out that the RAF "won" the battle of britain through bravery but with a very healthy dose of incompetence on the part of the leadership of the Luftwaffe.  The Germans lost the airwar over England because they didn't understand it, not because the RAF was superior.

The reason I say that is because they failed at a very basic level of understanding how the RAF was fighting them.  They assumed the Brits were fighting them in the same antiquated way the Germans were.  If they had realized the significance of the radar stations and taken them out in combination with air raids on the air fields, no amount of bravery or superior aircraft would have won the air war for England.  The RAF won the war with a smaller weaker force because they were able to apply it affectively against the Germans through the use of radar.  If they were denied that ability, the larger German airforce would have easily won.  The Germans failed to grasp that and lost.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Britain
quote:


Luftwaffe targets RAF airfields
From 24 August onwards, the battle was essentially a slugging match between Kesselring's Luftflotte 2 and Keith Park's 11 Group. The Luftwaffe concentrated all their strength on knocking out Fighter Command and made repeated attacks on the airfields. Of the 33 heavy attacks in the next two weeks, 24 were against airfields. The key sector stations were hit repeatedly: Biggin Hill and Hornchurch four times each, Debden and North Weald twice each. Croydon, Gravesend, Rochford, Hawkinge and Manston were also attacked in strength. No fewer than seven attempts were made against Eastchurch, which was not a Fighter Command aerodrome but was believed to be by the intelligence-starved Germans. At times these raids knocked out the sector stations, threatening the integrity of the Dowding system. Emergency measures had to be taken to keep the sectors operating.

These were desperate times for the RAF, which was also taking many casualties in the air. Aircraft production could replace aircraft but replacement pilots were barely keeping place with losses, and novice flyers were being shot down in droves. Most replacements had as little as nine hours flying time and no combat training. At this point the multinational nature of the RAF came to the fore. With many pilots from the Dominions already serving in Fighter Command — Australians, South Africans, New Zealanders and Canadians — they were bolstered by the arrival of fresh Czechoslovak and Polish squadrons. These squadrons had been held back by Dowding, who mistakenly thought the non-English speaking aircrew would have trouble working within his control system. In addition there were other nationals, including Free French, Belgian and even a Palestinian Jewish pilot serving amongst the squadrons.

(edited section deleted for brevity)

And yet, the Luftwaffe was winning this battle of the airfields. Another fortnight of this pounding and the RAF might have been forced to withdraw their squadrons from the south of England. This was not clear to the Luftwaffe command, which had watched its bomber force start to waste away and had grown desperate to deliver on the original timetable. They could not understand why the RAF hadn't yet collapsed, or how they were always able to get fighters to the place they were needed, no matter how many raids were sent. Something needed to be done to force the RAF into a decisive battle.




meatcleaver -> RE: Left wing media. (10/14/2006 7:14:21 AM)

Sorry CD. I should have analysed the whole thread a little more than just jumping in. I might have known NG would be involved. There was a definitive book written on the RAF and air defence a couple of years ago but I'm struggling to find it now but it discusses the tactics of Air Chief Marshall Dowding, probably Britain's only brilliant commander in the war.




CrappyDom -> RE: Left wing media. (10/14/2006 7:24:03 AM)

They shitcanned Dowding and praised Montgommery, pretty dam ass backward in my opinion.




meatcleaver -> RE: Left wing media. (10/14/2006 7:43:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

They shitcanned Dowding and praised Montgommery, pretty dam ass backward in my opinion.


They bulled Montgommery up somewhat because Churchill thought Britain desperately needed a victory and a hero, Montgommery provided the victory and became the hero but he should have won a lot easier in North Africa. Yes, he was fighting a good commander in Rommel but Montgommery had so many more resources than Rommel. My uncle was killed in north Africa due to one ill thought out fiasco.




CrappyDom -> RE: Left wing media. (10/14/2006 7:56:37 AM)

If you need three to one odds combined with fresh troops and better equipment against obsolete worn out equipment manned by worn out men to "win" you ain't much of a general and it truly shows how brilliant Rommel was and what good troops the Germans were.




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