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RE: World Opinion - 9/23/2006 1:18:44 PM

popeye1250

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Julie Ann, me too.
Everytime I go to Ireland they know I'm an American and I have never had a problem.
When I was there one time when Clinton was President they called him a "Wanker" though.

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RE: World Opinion - 9/23/2006 2:01:02 PM

pahunkboy

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the sad part is- this adminsitration DESERVES a % of what was said that day.

to me it was unstatesmenlike, then tho bush is anything but a statesmen.

the chilling reality- is that we might not be afforded the time [08] to clean up the mess.

hugo mocked bush by acting like a king..... i dont know that silence meant anything. a worse screnario would have been the other delegates standing on their desktops chanting WITH HUGO- on the rant.

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RE: World Opinion - 9/23/2006 2:28:40 PM

Dtesmoac

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Lets look at some of the comments about all this US aid to poor foreigners......
USA aid as % of Gross national income, 0.22% Compared with Denmark 0.81%, UK0.48%, Germany 0.35% i.e behind on the generosity stakes
With roughly $2.61 of private aid for every $1 of official aid glbally, then the governments (i.e. tax) isn't the biggest contributor anyway.
US government contribution roughly $15 billion, public, roughly $35 billion . Seems generous but then look at where it goes, significant proportion is focussed on Mexico and Middle East becasue a large proportion of this "aid" is from the immigrant populations within the US not from the comfortably off wealthy 6th generation US citizens.
Of course these are just lies, damn lies and statistics, but another thought to include is that in recent times bulk of US foreign aid has been focussed in places where they spent more money destroying the infrastructure via high level bombing than is now being philanthropically donated for infrastructure construction.

Of course with so many people living on $1 a day if you relate that to the US where everyone was complaining about gas costs. Lets spend $365 (on 9 tanks of fuel) and submerge Bangladesh at the same time just getting to the shopping Mall, compared with the entire annual income of the majority of the worlds population. Ever heard the term LET THEM EAT CAKE, .........that and many other reasons are why around the world the term US is starting to be equated with Evil and Devil.

The most worrying thing is that people around the world will now BELIEVE almost anything of the US and the US is not as isolated from the impacts of others opinions as some would like to believe.

WAKE UP - Bush is dangerous to you and everyone else mainly because of the way he does things and the way HE makes enemies. Even the most ardent friends of the US are starting to get sick of the "we're deaf "& "we know all about everything anyway" & "if you don't like it we'll bomb you" foreign policy of the good old United States of America.

go to the UN web sites for information on donars or try www.globalissues.org

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RE: World Opinion - 9/23/2006 2:43:11 PM

Dtesmoac

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Of course the last post was a bit harsh on US and it should be added that most developed countries consistently receive more in value and profits from investments in third world countries as a whole than they "donate". i.e. we may fool ourselves into thinking we are generous but in reality we shure are not.

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RE: World Opinion - 9/23/2006 3:07:18 PM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dtesmoac

Of course the last post was a bit harsh on US and it should be added that most developed countries consistently receive more in value and profits from investments in third world countries as a whole than they "donate". i.e. we may fool ourselves into thinking we are generous but in reality we shure are not.

The US is a big target and its useful to other western countries that Bush makes the US a bigger target than they need be.

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RE: World Opinion - 9/24/2006 1:22:14 AM

popeye1250

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Dtes, you can't compare it that way.
Look at actual dollars compared to actual Kroners.
Also, the govt. just shouldn't be in the foreign aid business in the first place.
The govt doesn't have any money, it's "The People's Money."

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RE: World Opinion - 9/24/2006 5:09:47 AM

philosophy

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"Dtes, you can't compare it that way.
Look at actual dollars compared to actual Kroners."

...depends what you're trying to find out........despite not being a religious man i am reminded of that bit in the bible where a rich man gives tons of cash to the church for the poor and an old woman gives but a penny.......Jesus apparently held that the old woman had given more because she gave all she had, while the rich man gave less because it was just a fraction of his wealth. Thing is Popeye, suppose Holland decided to give as much actual cash in foreign aid as the US. It would be a massive chunk of its GDP compared the America. Surely you can see how that would mean that Holland would be seen as more generous than the US? It's not just about dollars....there are other factors involved...human ones.

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RE: World Opinion - 9/24/2006 6:14:33 AM

seeksfemslave

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Bit of a Left Wingers whinge there Dtes, you are not seriously saying that G Bush is responsable(spelling?) for all the problems in any 3rd World country are you ? Seem to recall there was a lot of 3rd world poverty before he arrived on the scene.

Global Warming, your Bangladesh reference is not yet proven to be due to human activity...is it ?

If it is, why has not the rate of increase of the average temperature increased over that last hundred or so years. I read somewhere that it has stayed constant at about 0.6 degrees per dont remember the unit of time.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 9/24/2006 7:11:11 AM >

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RE: World Opinion - 9/24/2006 9:46:42 AM

popeye1250

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

"Dtes, you can't compare it that way.
Look at actual dollars compared to actual Kroners."

...depends what you're trying to find out........despite not being a religious man i am reminded of that bit in the bible where a rich man gives tons of cash to the church for the poor and an old woman gives but a penny.......Jesus apparently held that the old woman had given more because she gave all she had, while the rich man gave less because it was just a fraction of his wealth. Thing is Popeye, suppose Holland decided to give as much actual cash in foreign aid as the US. It would be a massive chunk of its GDP compared the America. Surely you can see how that would mean that Holland would be seen as more generous than the US? It's not just about dollars....there are other factors involved...human ones.

Philosophy, I think you're missing the point.
"Foreign Aid" is not something I want * MY GOVT.* doing, period!
It's just not part of their job description in the first place.
Look at that idiot "BONO" and his debt reduction for third world countries.
American Taxdollars were used to pay off Big Banks that made "Bad Loans" to third world countries!
Don't you think that those Big Banks Stockholders should take the hit and not U.S. Taxpayers?
Meanwhile "BONO" sits on $100 million!
I'd love to get a look at his stock portfolio! Think he has any CITIBANK? Or CHASE MANHATTEN? Or BANK of AMERICA stock???
And how about all those lobbying firms on "K" street in Washington who make $Billions of dollars for "representing" foreign countries in getting Congress and Senate to vote for "Foreign Aid" money?
We (U.S. Taxpayers) are paying for luxury villas on the French Riviera, Mercedes Benz automobiles, all kinds of luxury goods for the "leaders" of those countries who are stealing our money in the form of "foreign aid."
Did you realize that Vladimir Putin has a villa on the French Riviera that he bought out of that $67 m "loan" that we made to Russia back in the 1990's?
I don't think they've paid that loan off yet.
The whole system is so totally rotten and corrupt that we need to end it. ALL the money is stollen, ALL of it!
Why should someone make 6 figures by going to congressmen's and senators offices trying to persuade them to give our money to foreign countries?

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RE: World Opinion - 9/24/2006 10:01:59 AM

NorthernGent

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The most worrying thing is that people around the world will now BELIEVE almost anything of the US

I take my hat off to the entire post and pointed this bit out because the moment has already arrived. Take Sudan, the Sudanese Government simply do not trust the US and UK and as a result will not have UN peacekeeping forces in Darfur (as they see the UN as being corrupted by the West and their intentions to extend influence in the area). In otherwords, the US and the UK have lost all respect and are not trusted.

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RE: World Opinion - 9/24/2006 10:23:20 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

I take my hat off to the entire post and pointed this bit out because the moment has already arrived. Take Sudan, the Sudanese Government simply do not trust the US and UK and as a result will not have UN peacekeeping forces in Darfur (as they see the UN as being corrupted by the West and their intentions to extend influence in the area). In otherwords, the US and the UK have lost all respect and are not trusted.

Now you take the biscuit!!!!!!! As much as the US and UK's reputation has taking a beating with their foreign policy to let the Sudan government off the hook like that makes you the KING OF ALL APOLOGISTS.

What will you say when the Sudanese government kills and ethnically cleanses more of Sudan. It's the UK and the US's fault, the Sudanese government had to do it because they couldn't trust the US or UK?

Thanks NG. That's was the best laugh of the day so far!!!!

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RE: World Opinion - 9/24/2006 10:33:07 AM

NorthernGent

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The obsession continues.

MC, you really need to stop putting words in people's mouths. Aren't the posters on these boards supposed to follow board etiquette of integrity? How on earth you have jumped to the conclusion I am letting the "Sudanese Government off the hook" because I state they do not trust the US and UK only you will know. Quite frankly, I don't care and don't want to know.

However, one thing you said did catch my eye and an explanation is required. I was talking about Darfur and you mentioned ethnic cleansing. Be more specific - which ethnic minorities are being "cleansed" in Darfur"?

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RE: World Opinion - 9/24/2006 10:38:48 AM

meatcleaver

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You wrote "the Sudanese Government simply do not trust the US and UK and as a result will not have UN peacekeeping forces in Darfur"

Does the UN solely comprise of the UK and USA? Of course not so why won't the Sudanese government allow other nations in?

If you lack so much knowledge about what the Sudanese government is like, read up on it, you really need to.

http://hrw.org/doc?t=africa&c=darfur

Edited to add http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/3752871.stm

Maybe you think the Sudanese government really isn't involved and don't really back the Arab militias.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 9/24/2006 10:49:19 AM >

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RE: World Opinion - 9/24/2006 10:53:30 AM

seeksfemslave

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SUDAN: vicious civil war between the Sudanese government, ARAB militias and a group called the Gangaweeds on the Black African side.
Million are homeless, living in squalid camps, Tens of thousands have been killed or raped.

NorthernGent says that US/UK are not trusted. Wot a larf !

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RE: World Opinion - 9/24/2006 10:53:45 AM

NorthernGent

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I see, another exercise in question avidance from you and you instead point out the blatantly obvious that there are human rights issues in Darfur.

When you can answer a question put before you and explain which ethnic minorities are being "cleansed" in Darfur then we will continue the chat. Until then, conversation over.

Yet again, another exercise in question avoidance from you.

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RE: World Opinion - 9/24/2006 10:54:54 AM

NorthernGent

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The above is in reply to MC, not Seeks.

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RE: World Opinion - 9/24/2006 11:02:36 AM

meatcleaver

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I'm laughing my head off. In your knee jerk reaction to spout off against the US and UK, you'll condone any barbarity.

As far as I'm concerned this conversation is over, I can't be bothered chasing your points of trivia when you are losing an argument.

Sometimes NG, the US and UK really aren't to blame.

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RE: World Opinion - 9/24/2006 11:49:21 AM

philosophy

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"The whole system is so totally rotten and corrupt that we need to end it. ALL the money is stollen, ALL of it!
Why should someone make 6 figures by going to congressmen's and senators offices trying to persuade them to give our money to foreign countries?"

...apologies for the selective cut and paste, but i think this neatly encapsulates your argument. It may surprise you to learn that i substantially agree with you regarding the degree of corruption endemic to the system. i couldn't agree more with you when you express anger at people making seriously fat salaries lobbying for this viewpoint or another. Where we do depart is whether there ought to be any foreign aid or not. Foreign policy is not best served when informed by a lobby system of government. Foreign policy is a long game, not a short one. At a personal level we all need friends....we tend to pick friends by choosing to be with people of a like mind. We support each other, we help when others need it and, in tuen, are helped when we do. This is people. i see no reason why countries can't be seen in the same way......we all need friends. Foreign policy, based on long term ideals such as ethics and morality as opposed to short term ideals like political expediency and poll ratings, will make the sort of friends that stand by in times of trouble.

.......still, clinging to my religious theme, Jesus chucked the money changers out of the temple.....lets do the same with the lobbyists, but not confuse the baby with the bathwater........

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RE: World Opinion - 9/24/2006 5:55:27 PM

popeye1250

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Philosophy, we can agree on a few things then.
I don't know how it works in England but in the U.S. our govt. doesn't "have" any money. Not one red cent.
All the money in this country belongs to "The People."
Our govt. is doing things that they shouldn't be doing; ("Foreign Aid, invading other countries) and not doing the things that we're (The U.S. Taxpayer) paying them to do like guard our borders and enforce our immigration laws.
Since Bush took office it's just a real mess!
And he got us involved in another "trade deal" that no-one wants "CAFTA".
If someone wants to donate money to charities that deal with foreign countries that's fine with me.
That's the way it's *supposed* to be done in this country like when U.S. Citizens donated over $1b for the Tseunami victims in 2004 & 2005.
But it is simply not the job of my govt. to be giving (my) money to foreign countries. It's also bad management and bad policy.
It has turned into a giant "steal-fest" by lobbyists in Washington.
Now people think that we (The U.S.) should send our Troops to the Sudan? I mean what in blazes do I care about the Sudan?
My country needs to be closing embasseys not opening more of them.
And it's not just the Republicans at fault either. The Democrats think we should be the "world's leader!"
That's why I'm an Independant voter and not a Republican or Democrat.
Hopefully the American People will throw BOTH of those Partys out of Washington.
Philosophy, as you can see I'm not at all an Imperialist or an Interventionist like a lot of people in Washington are.
As for the Danish people giving more money per capita than the U.S. to foreign aid, if that's what the Danish People want to do then good for them. They have a different form of govt. than we do in the U.S.
Our govt. isn't supposed to be doing that kind of thing.
Actually, I think the U.S. government is out of control.

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 9/24/2006 6:01:17 PM >

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RE: World Opinion - 9/24/2006 5:55:40 PM

Dtesmoac

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Ok couple of replies to comments since my last post
seeks- first time I've ever been called a lefty ........
ref climate change - due to global dimming and sun acivity since 1970 max temp rise should have been 0.1 Actually measured at 0.5. There are now almost no major independent scientific bodies that dispute human caused climate change. see other threads and also www.metoffice.com for nice summary. A good comparison is that in 1890s there were medical studies showing asbestos killed people. The interests of business etc kept on finding alternative evidence all the way through to the 1970s and still puts forward some......but most of us accept asbestos kills......smoking, .. the tobacco companies deliberately skew the facts for financial reasons, but most statistical evidence is smokers face life threatening illnesses more than non smokers.... DONT BUY A HOLIDAY HOME IN BANGLADESH.....unless you like snorkling - US global perspective on climate change e.g. Kyoto is the rest of the world can sink for all we care as long as I can drive my car.........the effect on World Opinion Katrina (self interest) has had an impact

popeye - Measurement of generosity is a real tough one. My point which has been well clarrified by some other posts is that in the US people really believe they pay for everybody else in the world....maybe once but not true now, and the way people in other less fortunate places see this is that the americans view the lives of other peoples children as worthLESS than an americans trip to the shopping mall......in 6 years BUSH'S policies have allowed the US to be demonised by absolute fanatics who start to sound reasonable......combined with availability of evidence that US aid is fixed to one of "paying it back to US to buy their goods", "converting to US religeon", or "be thankfull we are rebuilding the infrastructure we (the US) destroyed earlier,....again the US scores own goals whilst at the same time the US public honestly believe they are being amazingly benificent. (seeks I can't spell and don't really care)

Another question is for how long do you hold the children responsible for the crimes of the parents. e.g. corruption, civil wars, etc...... from one perspective on the thread we should not be giving them aid because of what occured before. A man who sees his child die has a right to hate those he views contributed to it. For the US they are terrorists, for many in the third world that person is personified by the US. And arrogantly telling them otherwise does not help with world opinion on the US. A rich man giving the price of a drink and a poor man giving half a years wage ......which is generous?

The only way to win a terrorist war is to starve them of money and support. If we all really were honest the current policies are more about keeping the killing in other non western countries rather than defeating the terrorists because our actions indicate we don't value "their lives" (i.e. populations other than western countries) and so the terrorist nutters have a platform to appear reasonable.

Think of the French Revolution - the aristocrats thought they had all the power.........but found they didn't.........We in the west believe we have all the power, but perhas are starting to realise there are more types of power than conventional military forces...........!

God I'm in a bad mood today..........anoher glass of wine should fix that......!!!! see I'm a hypocrit to.

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