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RE: Help Please - 9/25/2006 9:26:44 PM   
Emperor1956


Posts: 2370
Joined: 11/7/2005
Status: offline 		This thread takes those snarky turns, don't it?  Generally I agreed with the first few posters.  And nagging in the back of My head was what LA finally said:  Do we honor the choices of consenting adults, or don't we? 

I would protect My friends, and I surely would NOT just walk out with My girl and leave someone who I was involved with "on the cross".  But I would be worried the whole time that I was involved that I was violating my friend's consent.  No good choice there.

BUT...there surely are a lot of bad choices being voiced.  As I understand it, this was a private house to which the OP and his partner had been invited.  This isn't "paddles" or "the Flame" or any club.  And when you walk in the front door of a house where you don't know most people and you aren't in control, you suspend some of your righteous or not so righteous indignation.  If you can't do that -- if you are (as many of the posters clearly are) someone who must have it her/his way all the time, for God's sake STAY HOME.  

One thing that isn't clear to Me is whether the OP was aware of these problems during the scene.  He had that ghostly warning feeling "something was not right" -- I don't know if he trusts the hairs on the back of his neck.  Other than that, did he and his partner know there was a problem before the bottom told them?  If so, then I think he should have intervened.  If during the scene you believed that the scene had ceased to be nonconsensual, and you had a "stake" in person being Topped, then you quietly and firmly explain to the Top that you think the girl (your friend) has had enough, you stop the scene and you provide aftercare, and when you can, you and yours leave. 

What don't you do?  You don't make a scene.  You don't (as several submissives who posted seem to need to do) make this "All about ME!" by throwing yourself in front of the flogger and "protecting" your friend (oh my aren't we dramatic...not effective, but dramatic!)  And...you surely don't threaten to call the cops.  All in all, this thread reinforces why I would never invite 99% of the scene people I meet to My home.  Those people cannot be trusted.

E

And PS, I agree with LA and Sinergy in the posts they will write after Mine.  Yah, I'm THAT good. 

< Message edited by Emperor1956 -- 9/25/2006 9:39:56 PM >

_____________________________

"When you wake up, Pooh," said Piglet, "what's the first thing you say?"
"What's for breakfast? What do you say, Piglet?"
"I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?"
Pooh nodded thoughtfully.
"It's the same thing," he said.

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Help Please - 9/25/2006 9:28:11 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
So in your opinion how far would it have to go before it is appropriate to step in and check the status of the submissive?

In a scene? 

I'd stop someone else's scene if a piece of equipment seemed to be going awry and those in the scene didn't seem to notice.

I'd stop someone else's scene if they yelled "Red" or "safeword" in a public scene space and the person continued.


quote:

The OP said the woman was bound to a cross, flogged and a knife was used. I'm pretty sure a strong blow from a flogger could break a rib, so would bloody froth at the lips be enough?

Nope.  Not for ME to interrupt THEIR scene.

quote:

The scene the OP described was neither Safe nor Sane nor Consensual and that is shameful. I hope that if any of my sub friends are ever in such a position and I'm not present someone has the courage to stand up and stop such a scene.

There's nothing in the scene as described to suggest anything wrong was going on, certainly not for an outsider to judge.  The scene he described was actually pretty darn tame compared to a lot of things I enjoy.

The person who should stand up to the scene is the one in it.  If someone interrupted my scene because they assumed it wasn't "SSC" they'd soon learn the real meaning of "not SSC."

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Help Please - 9/25/2006 9:31:20 PM   
MagiksSlave


Posts: 2768
Joined: 9/11/2006
Status: offline 		Im sorry Id rather error on the side of safety and say something anything Id rather be humiated becasue I interupted a scene that both parties were haveing fun in then live with the guilt that I hadnt in the end and my friend got hurt and I could have done something and didnt....

again makes me feel like a bad slave.... but its still what I feel I would do!!

Magik's slave

_____________________________

If you’re going through hell keep on moving
don't slow down
if you’re scared dont show it
you might get out
before the devil even knows your there.


-Rodney Atkins-



(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Help Please - 9/25/2006 9:33:43 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
So in your opinion how far would it have to go before it is appropriate to step in and check the status of the submissive?

In a scene? 

I'd stop someone else's scene if a piece of equipment seemed to be going awry and those in the scene didn't seem to notice.

I'd stop someone else's scene if they yelled "Red" or "safeword" in a public scene space and the person continued.


quote:

The OP said the woman was bound to a cross, flogged and a knife was used. I'm pretty sure a strong blow from a flogger could break a rib, so would bloody froth at the lips be enough?

Nope.  Not for ME to interrupt THEIR scene.

quote:

The scene the OP described was neither Safe nor Sane nor Consensual and that is shameful. I hope that if any of my sub friends are ever in such a position and I'm not present someone has the courage to stand up and stop such a scene.

There's nothing in the scene as described to suggest anything wrong was going on, certainly not for an outsider to judge.  The scene he described was actually pretty darn tame compared to a lot of things I enjoy.

The person who should stand up to the scene is the one in it.  If someone interrupted my scene because they assumed it wasn't "SSC" they'd soon learn the real meaning of "not SSC."


Hello A/all,

I have to agree with LuckyAlbatross here.  The key word in the sentence "This scene is making me feel uncomfortable" is the word "me."

It is not my house.  It is not my scene.  But if I feel uncomfortable about it, and there is no dungeon master or person I can express my feelings to, I am going to take me and my feelings somewhere else.

If I saw somebody being beaten up on the street I would do whatever steps I needed to distract the person to me, and perhaps ask the one being beaten if they needed my help, but this is consensual (or not) kink. 

I refuse to appoint myself the moral guardian of other people.

Just me, could be wrong, but there you go.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Help Please - 9/25/2006 9:41:16 PM   
Sensualips


Posts: 1013
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

the problem again once she gets in to that submissive mood, she can't say no.


I think this is total bullshit, a myth that continues to validate and create victims.   She may find it difficult to say no or choose not to say no, but that is her choice and responsibility. Would anyone think it was okay if I said, "Once I get in a dominant mood, I just can't stop."

If this situation is described accurately, is the top an ass?  Of course.  But she was in the scene as well.


(in reply to PlayfulOne)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Help Please - 9/25/2006 9:42:24 PM   
HollyS


Posts: 230
Joined: 1/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

Im sorry Id rather error on the side of safety and say something anything Id rather be humiated becasue I interupted a scene that both parties were haveing fun in then live with the guilt that I hadnt in the end and my friend got hurt and I could have done something and didnt....

again makes me feel like a bad slave.... but its still what I feel I would do!!


If you truly feel this way, PLEASE make sure you know the rules of whatever venue you visit well in advance.  If you can't abide by them, then for god's sake don't go.  As Sinergy said so well, if your feelings about a scene are bothering you then it's your issue -- not anyone else's.  Imposing your discomfort on anyone else's scene is disrespectful and rude - would completly piss me off, even if you were my "friend."  Your judgement about what is appropriate during someone else's scene is irrelevant unless there is clear abuse happening (for example, ignoring a safeword or repeated calls to "Stop, my ribs just broke!!") or you are the appointed DM for the evening. 

Sometimes one-on-one private play really is best.

~Holly

_____________________________

I wish my lawn were emo, so it would cut itself.

(in reply to MagiksSlave)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Help Please - 9/25/2006 9:44:43 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline 		I fail to see how quietly, calmly and respectfully requesting to ask and judge for myself whether or not the sub in question is actually beyond her limits is judging anyone else morally.

To me, it's an issue of friendship and responsibility.

I also find it dis-ingenious that so many of the people who encourage "listening to that little voice" are now saying that someone should totally ignore it in this situation.

That "little voice" is a survival mechanism that we have, or it's our conscience or a combination.  What it is not, is something to be ignored and dismissed without a lot of serious reflection.

The facts, as explained and came out afterward fully justified an intervention, did they not?  It was indeed non-consensual, and abuse.

Yet .... we have people, who even knowing this, propose that "walking away" is the morally correct thing to do?

How many "good" Germans walked away from the Jews during the Holocaust?

Sorry, walking away is not moral in my book.  Nor ever will be.

FHky


_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Help Please - 9/25/2006 9:49:27 PM   
MagiksSlave


Posts: 2768
Joined: 9/11/2006
Status: offline 		Holly I wasnt talking about any old scene I was talking about if it were my friend involved someone I knew very well and knew the limits of other people it is non of my busness and I do my best to keep myself out of situation of voyerism for that reason.

Magik's slave

_____________________________

If you’re going through hell keep on moving
don't slow down
if you’re scared dont show it
you might get out
before the devil even knows your there.


-Rodney Atkins-



(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Help Please - 9/25/2006 9:49:38 PM   
spanklette


Posts: 882
Joined: 2/22/2005
Status: offline 		A submissive willfully not using her safe word should not be likened to the Holocaust.

_____________________________

~spanklette~

"The important thing is this: to be able at any moment to sacrifice what we are for what we could become. " Charles du Bois

"Please don't shout, can't you see I'm not listening." Billie Myers

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Help Please - 9/25/2006 9:51:10 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		I'm going to do the smart thing and leave this subject but just a word to LuckyAlbatross, a pink froth at the lips is a pretty sure indication of a collapsed lung. A collapsed lung is a life threatening injury. Any scene continuing past that point isn't Sane.

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Help Please - 9/25/2006 10:18:07 PM   
losttreasure


Posts: 875
Joined: 12/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

It's amazing how quickly we let the idea of consensual responsible adults fly out the window and turn it into "what *I* say goes."


I don't know, LA... seems to me that what people think and feel, the principals they decide to live by, and how they choose to act, typically does revolve around them.  While to any other person, they may seem a "bit player", to them, they are "the star" on center stage.

That being said, I don't think I advocated not taking into consideration any of the other people involved.  Actually, I didn't even suggest what should be done.  I didn't respond to the OP because, honestly, I'm not sure exactly what I would have done, or how.

Based on PlayfulOne's comments and the fact that he felt guilt afterward, I took it to mean that the situation was one in which intervention was warranted.  My contention has been, and is, that walking away would simply not be an option I would either consider or recommend.  The scene might have been between two consenting and responsible adults, but I am also a responsible adult.  And, as I said, I have to live with me.  In this situation, I could not, in good conscience walk away.

Would that upset the scening partners?  Perhaps.  But sometimes in life we have to stand up for what we believe in... sometimes that's not the popular choice.

If a friend decided to put a gun to her head and pull the trigger, I couldn't walk away and try to soothe my conscience with the knowledge that she was a responsible adult doing what she wanted.

*shrugs*  An extreme example?  Perhaps.  But it illustrates that the right thing to do isn't always the easy thing to do... and sometimes it's not a perfect solution, but simply the best we can do.

In the end, I can take all things into consideration but the final choice comes down to what I feel is right. 

And that's a very egocentric thing.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Help Please - 9/25/2006 10:24:48 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: spanklette

A submissive willfully not using her safe word should not be likened to the Holocaust.


You are making more, and less safe assumptions than I am, I'm afraid.

And I think you miss the point that I've tried to subtly and then not so subtly make twice i.e. a person who knowingly walks away from a morally reprehensible activity or event shares the guilt and responsibility for said event.

I would even go so far as to say that I find that PlayfulOne's remaining, and "seeing it through" was and is a higher moral choice than simply packing it in, and leaving the helpless woman to bleed to death, be bludgeoned to death, or simply to disappear into the night (yes, over the top examples, just for effect).

Neither you, nor I, nor anyone except perhaps Playfulone knows this woman, and how she normally reacts, and her character, so I do not make any judgements as to her ability to "react" and maintain her presence of mind during an over-the-top scene.

I take PlayfulOne's point of view, since it's the only one I have in this case.

I hope and trust, spanklette, that you are never placed in such an emotionally and physically stressed environment that your brain doesn't function exactly 100% as it normally does everyday.

But from personal experience, the strangest things happen to people under stress.  "Forgetting" a safeword is not unheard of.  Could it have been that she really didn't want to stop, and she had agreed to all the stuff that Playfulone mentioned?

Possibly, which is part of the thing that stopped PlayfulOne from taking any action during the scene, I'd bet.  Uncertainity.

But again, please refer to his posts.  It was NOT a consensual event.  She WAS being abused.  Just because she was unable to have the presence of mind to use a safeword ... you think it's all ok?

Remind me to hit losttreasure hard in the mouth, so that I break a couple of teeth and make her tongue swell up.  That way, she can't safeword, and I can do anything I wish.  Look for small, sunken piles of earth in the backyard. 

FHky

PS .. Ok, last paragraph kinda harsh - the point being the dom has a major responsibility, and I don't buy shoving all the responsiblity off on the sub simply because "she didn't safeword!".

Get it?



_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to spanklette)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Help Please - 9/25/2006 10:37:27 PM   
spanklette


Posts: 882
Joined: 2/22/2005
Status: offline 		Just because I don't agree does not mean that I don't "get it". This is precisely the situation that careful negotions are designed to avoid. Neither the Dominant or the submissive should rely on observers to step in and adjust or stop a scene. If a submissive has a propensity to "get in the submissive mood" and be unable to say no then she probably shouldn't be playing in a public setting. It's much easier to be in tune with a play partner when you're in private.
 
None of this makes it a better situation, but rules must be followed. If a scene were stopped everytime someone looked uncomfortable...well, you "get it".

_____________________________

~spanklette~

"The important thing is this: to be able at any moment to sacrifice what we are for what we could become. " Charles du Bois

"Please don't shout, can't you see I'm not listening." Billie Myers

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Help Please - 9/25/2006 10:49:18 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: spanklette

This is precisely the situation that careful negotions are designed to avoid. Neither the Dominant or the submissive should rely on observers to step in and adjust or stop a scene.


Yeah .. and how did all those "careful negotions" work out in this case?

quote:

ORIGINAL: spanklette

None of this makes it a better situation, but rules must be followed. If a scene were stopped everytime someone looked uncomfortable...well, you "get it".


The "rules must be followed" ..... hmmm .... you mean the rule that an agreement should be honored?  That what we do should be consenual?  That a dom has greater responsibility than the sub?

Tell me, which one of these rules were honored in this case?

So, now .... what do you do about it?  And who decides?

FHky

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to spanklette)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Help Please - 9/25/2006 10:58:33 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		If one is unsure whether they can honor another person's scene perhaps they should not put themselves in this situation. If it will cause a person a moral dilemma they shouldn't go in my opinion

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Help Please - 9/25/2006 11:05:57 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

If one is unsure whether they can honor another person's scene perhaps they should not put themselves in this situation. If it will cause a person a moral dilemma they shouldn't go in my opinion


julia,

No arguments there.  I agree.

FHky


_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Help Please - 9/25/2006 11:06:40 PM   
spanklette


Posts: 882
Joined: 2/22/2005
Status: offline 		Why is it an observer's responsiblity to police negotiations? If they were to be handed the responsiblity of stepping in then they should have been privvy to that conversation, otherwise how do they know when the line has been crossed? The OP didn't say that the submissive was "obviously" in genuine distress. Even if it was genuine, how are they supposed to know that distress wasn't negotiated for?
 
The rules that I was referring to were the rules of the host. If you are uncomfortable following the rules, then don't go.

Was the Dominant wrong? Undoubtedly. Was the submissive wrong? Yes. Submissives have a responsibility to protect themselves.
 
You can delegate authority but not responsibility.

Edited for typos.

< Message edited by spanklette -- 9/25/2006 11:07:22 PM >

_____________________________

~spanklette~

"The important thing is this: to be able at any moment to sacrifice what we are for what we could become. " Charles du Bois

"Please don't shout, can't you see I'm not listening." Billie Myers

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Help Please - 9/25/2006 11:29:35 PM   
Gemslittlebear


Posts: 4
Joined: 6/26/2006
Status: offline 		Ok here is a question for You? Under experiance at play parties held in private Homes, I first would like to know where the Dungeon Master was. As a Dungeon Masters responcibilties is to check on all scening taking place and the condition of not just the sub/slave but the condtion of the person that is playing with him or her. Also as a Dungeon Master Should have stopped the play immediatly upon seeing the cuts and the welts as well as the uncontrolable shaking and other signs.

Yes I would say that You should have stepped in and stopped the play. Seeing and knowing that things were getting out of hand. Also just a suggestion for future reference from a person that forgets his safeword when he hits the deeps space. my Mistress bought me these catballs that have bells in them. So when I have had enough and I am unable to communicate or I am just to deep to say my safe word the balls drop from my hands and the play comes to a hault.

Also No One and I do Mean No One Should ever play, punish or anything out of anger or jealousy. For that simple reason as You pointed out. More harm than good came from it. He lost all respect and trust by the submissive, he displayed his true colors to everyone that was there and more than likely lost much much respect. If he was a part of the community that I belonged to The play would have been stopped by either a Dungeon Master or Someone else within that group or party that knew it was wrong and He should have been ejected from the party or the party should have stopped right then and there and never again would he be permitted to host a party nor would he be welcomed back to the group and its affairs.

I hope in the future that You as being a close friend to this sub, will take the time to mentor her, or train her offer her guidance and ever again she attends those parties she doesnot go alone to them. That you or someone you both trust will accompany her and anyone wishing to play her must seek her permission your or the attendants and agree to certain terms and stipulations that you and her agreed upon before comming to another party.

sincerely
bear

(in reply to PlayfulOne)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Help Please - 9/25/2006 11:35:13 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: spanklette

You can delegate authority but not responsibility.


Exactly!

What of your responsiblity to yourself?

quote:

ORIGINAL: spanklette

Was the Dominant wrong? Undoubtedly. Was the submissive wrong? Yes. Submissives have a responsibility to protect themselves.


Certainly, no disagreement here.

quote:

ORIGINAL: spanklette

Why is it an observer's responsiblity to police negotiations? If they were to be handed the responsiblity of stepping in then they should have been privvy to that conversation, otherwise how do they know when the line has been crossed? The OP didn't say that the submissive was "obviously" in genuine distress. Even if it was genuine, how are they supposed to know that distress wasn't negotiated for?
 
The rules that I was referring to were the rules of the host. If you are uncomfortable following the rules, then don't go.


Hence, the moral dilemma and the reason for this entire thread.

At what point do you allow your own morality, and sense of responsibility to overcome your desire to not violate the limits, rules and understanding of others?

There is no "perfect" answer.  PlayfulOne wasn't sure, hence his not taking any action at the time.

Yet, now he thinks (if I am reading him correctly.  Hopefully he will correct me if I am wrong) that the scene was wrong, and he should have at the least made an effort to determine if his friend was past her level of consent.

I can't fault him on his decision not to take action.  I can't fault him if he had decided to take action.

What I take exception with, are the posters who - having the gut feeling that things were amiss - would have simply abandoned the woman and left, "washing their hands".

FHky



_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to spanklette)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Help Please - 9/25/2006 11:54:55 PM   
spanklette


Posts: 882
Joined: 2/22/2005
Status: offline 		As I stated in my first post, they were a focal point for the scene. It would have stopped if they left. The friend is an adult and should be treated like one. The time to step in was initially, when the vibe felt off. If you can't retain the ability to communicate effectively then another fail safe should be in place.
 
Without their intervention she walked away with a hard lesson learned. This is the other side of not being a "door mat". Sometimes you have to stand up for yourself at the detriment of a scene. Being able to communicate is not just about opinions.

_____________________________

~spanklette~

"The important thing is this: to be able at any moment to sacrifice what we are for what we could become. " Charles du Bois

"Please don't shout, can't you see I'm not listening." Billie Myers

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 80
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