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A bdsmer's fear: Is my profile too vanilla - 9/27/2006 6:58:10 AM   
littlesarbonn


Posts: 1710
Joined: 12/3/2005
From: Stockton, California
Status: offline 		Recently, a very polite woman indicated to me that my profile appeared too vanilla. This got me to thinking (which can be argued is never a good thing), but is it possible that my attempts to be revealing have in fact done the opposite?

Let me explain. When I first started redesigning my profile some time ago, I was responding to a lot of the complaints that dominant women have about how the men that contact them all seem to be pushing agendas of what they want rather than what She wants. If that's not the case, their profiles are too small, indicating they don't want to share any information, and they're generally evasive when giving real information. In essence, there's really not a lot revealing who they are, what they want beyond a hookup and what they can offer to the person they are seeking.

Now, for those who know me on the boards, I've been pretty upfront about the fact that I rarely, if ever, contact a woman on the boards about a potential relationship. This was a decision I made after reading one post after another, one profile after another, about how the dominant women on this board are so overwhelmed by wannabe subs that I vowed never to be one of the ones cluttering up their boxes. Instead, I figured that if a dominant woman was seeking me, she'd probably be contacting me instead of me contacting her. Sure, I realized this cut me out of 99 percent of the chances that most men would pursue because there's this really bizarre real world phenomenon where dominant women purport to be the ones in charge of relationships yet for socialization reasons still seem to believe that they need to rely on old world stereotypes of waiting for a man to contact them first. But I figured that for the ones that buck this trend, which is probably the kind of woman I'm seeking in the first place, this would not be a problem.

So, in designing my profile, I went through the work of trying to drop any of the "this is what I want a woman to do to me" kind of attitude. And this wasn't a disguise but was an honest reflection of the fact that I truly am a service submissive who gains a LOT of pleasure from being the one to make the dominant partner in the relationship as content and satisfied as possible. Now, for most guys that say this sort of thing, they're saying "I wanna do you, cause I know that satisfies you." Unfortunately, that's a stereotype I have to constantly work against because so many guys who use the word "service" refer to some type of sexual contact rather than actual service itself. So, when I put together this type of profile, I made great effort to indicate that when I mean service, I mean SERVICE.

And this has caused me to rethink my strategy completely. You see, when I say that I am a service submissive, and I put forth all of the information to back that up in my profile, I think I somehow gave the impression that I'm not interested in either bdsm or sex, when that's really not the case. I believe there's this female fantasy that finding a service submissive is possible in that the guy will ONLY want to do chores and go home, never having any other interaction with the woman whatsoever. I even ran into this when I was actively part of the bdsm community. Women who knew OF me, but didn't really KNOW me would contact me through mutual friends, indicating that they thought we would be perfect together. Then we'd arrange a meeting, and it would go something like this:

"I think you're perfect for me because I'm looking for a service-oriented slave." (I perk up. This sounds good.) "I have a few really dedicated play partners, so I don't really need someone for any type of bondage or discipline." (This starts to look less good.) "And as I have a significant other, we're probably not going to be very sexually close to each other because that need is already fulfilled in my life." (This starts to look REALLY bad.) "In order to make you fit directly into my life to be less of a burden on me, I'm going to have you be supervised by my male secretary, so we'll probably not ever see each other, but you'll be able to do all my cleaning and housework on a regular basis." (Believe it or not, twice women have been serious about everything INCLUDING this last one. This is where I usually run and decide to build another World of Warcraft elf to 60th level. As I told a femsub friend of mine some time ago, if this was the kind of interaction I was seeking, I'd learn to become a butler or male maid and get paid for it.

So this leaves me wondering if by trying to be as non-sexually seeking as possible, as non-bdsm laundry list listing as necessary, if I've completely given the wrong impression with my profile and derailed any attempt I'll ever have of actually finding someone of like mind. I mean, I got into this whole service-oriented lifestyle because I was first involved in the whole bdsm culture. I just found that doing the whole play partner thing wasn't my thing. I was never really good at one time circumstances that never grew into anything further. At the same time, I've been offered everything from weekend relationships to live-in possibilities that tend to be "I want you as my slave, but I really don't want to be all that involved with you." I suspect that this is something that's an artifact of my own design, and for all I know, my profile may have a lot to do with this.

Any thoughts?
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: A bdsmer's fear: Is my profile too vanilla - 9/27/2006 7:18:37 AM   
Dnomyar


Posts: 7933
Joined: 6/27/2005
Status: offline 		It dose'nt matter how you write your profile someone is going to tell you it sucks. I got so tied of hearing that.  I told them to write a profile for me.  No one took me up on it. Change is constant. You will rewrite your profile many times. Go with is comfortable for you. Be yourself and the one that is looking for you will find you. 

(in reply to littlesarbonn)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: A bdsmer's fear: Is my profile too vanilla - 9/27/2006 7:40:36 AM   
MsKatHouston


Posts: 1909
Joined: 6/7/2006
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline 		(fast reply)

I read through your profile and saw nothing at all to indicate you were vanilla.  On the contrary, your profile was exactly what I was looking for.  You gave a clear indication of what you like and desire and can give in a relationship, you gave information about yourself so you seem like a well rounded, interesting person.  For me, it was enough for me to want to know more.  Yes, the kink and sex would be of interest to me.  I would ask about it eventually in conversation. But the other parts were intriguing enough to make me want to ask those questions because as a person you seem like someone I might want to hand out with.  After a few conversations, I'd get a better indication if you were someone I'd want to play with.  After a few meeting, I'd get a better indication if a long lasting relationship was possible.

I think it sounds great...but that's just my opinion.  If you have a concern that the sex part is not really covered, you can rectify that with one or two additional lines.  Something along the lines of "I do enjoy various aspects of play and sex and would be happy to discuss that further..."



_____________________________

-Kat

~If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning~

(in reply to Dnomyar)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: A bdsmer's fear: Is my profile too vanilla - 9/27/2006 8:18:28 AM   
LadyMorgynn


Posts: 800
Joined: 11/25/2005
From: N. Carolina
Status: offline 		I must say, as a Domme seeking a f/t slave, I find your profile FAR more to the point than I would a list of kinky preferences!!!  I wish ALL serious subs and slaves would write profiles more like what you have.  A kink profile is well and fine if you are looking for a play partner, but if what one is seeking is a l/t relationship, WHO you are is at least as important as what you like BDSM-wise.

_____________________________

---
Lady Morgynn
www.farhorizons.net/LadyMorgynn

(in reply to littlesarbonn)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: A bdsmer's fear: Is my profile too vanilla - 9/27/2006 8:24:46 AM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: littlesarbonn
...the dominant women on this board are so overwhelmed by wannabe subs that I vowed never to be one of the ones cluttering up their boxes...

This tells me that you are not confident in yourself and your abilities...that you believe you are a wanna-be sub. My intuition is that you are not, but that you doubt yourself and thus sell yourself short. Contact those who interest you...don't be a bump on the log. Many will simply overlook you if you are a bump.

quote:


So this leaves me wondering if by trying to be as non-sexually seeking as possible, as non-bdsm laundry list listing as necessary, if I've completely given the wrong impression with my profile and derailed any attempt I'll ever have of actually finding someone of like mind.

If you want to give sexual service, include it in your list of services that you offer. Just don't make it the focus...and be prepared that it may not be utilized. If this isn't something that you can live with, include sex in your list of needs.

Actually, this might be an idea: split the things in your head about what you WANT and what you NEED. Makes lists and write them down. For example, you may find that you simply need affection, sexual or not, in order to be a happy person (which goes a hell of a long way to making you a happy slave). That would be a need...you MUST have that in the relationship. A want is something that you can do without entirely or for an extended period of time. Let's say, you find you don't need to live with your Dominant. Wants can be used as rewards, so you might be invited for an extended visit in order to use this want in a positive way.

For the record, being totally non-sexual in your service is acceptable. I know many slaves who are this way...how else does a slave of one sexual orientation serve another, like my girl anne (het) serves me (bi)? It's may be just that on collarme, you find this kind of thing much less prevalent. Getting out into the wider community will increase your chances as well. If you have no local community, consider going to a national event.

Master Fire

_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
-----
Ms Relationship Books
-----
BDSM How-To Books

(in reply to littlesarbonn)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: A bdsmer's fear: Is my profile too vanilla - 9/27/2006 8:33:37 AM   
MsKatHouston


Posts: 1909
Joined: 6/7/2006
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline
quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlesarbonn
...the dominant women on this board are so overwhelmed by wannabe subs that I vowed never to be one of the ones cluttering up their boxes...



quote:

This tells me that you are not confident in yourself and your abilities...that you believe you are a wanna-be sub. My intuition is that you are not, but that you doubt yourself and thus sell yourself short. Contact those who interest you...don't be a bump on the log. Many will simply overlook you if you are a bump.


I missed this little tidbit and I have to agree.  I rarely initiate contact with a submissive and I don't think I'm in the minority here as far as fem doms are concerned.  You may be greatly limiting your prospective partners by not taking a chance and emailing some of the Dommes you are interested in.

_____________________________

-Kat

~If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning~

(in reply to MasterFireMaam)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: A bdsmer's fear: Is my profile too vanilla - 9/27/2006 8:33:37 AM   
raiken


Posts: 868
Joined: 10/18/2005
Status: offline 		Fast Reply:
 
Labels, what are they?  Who cares really, as for me they are just general terms used to avoid verbiage in discussion.  In your profile, you state the "person" you are with clairty.  You will attract those who have the same mindset and understanding that you do.  If folks wish to judge and label you as being too "vanilla", then they are not the people you wish to attract anyway.  Don't take all that stuff too personal, you will know those who are for you, for they will be the ones who "get" who you are, beneath the labels and outward verbal adornments and declarations.  Be a person first, know yourself, and put out your best qualities, and you will attract those who recognize the same. Best wishes to you. *smile  Read my profile...hehehe...i get all sorts of odd remarks. *grin  It's all good.

(in reply to littlesarbonn)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: A bdsmer's fear: Is my profile too vanilla - 9/27/2006 8:47:09 AM   
Frank01


Posts: 270
Joined: 9/7/2006
Status: offline 		My profile states absolutely nothing about me, and to go away. I figure if someone is interested in me-they will bother to read my forum posts. I'm not going to post a spec sheet for lazy shoppers-that's not the sort of individual who appeals to me. I like someone who gets off on achievment.

(in reply to raiken)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: A bdsmer's fear: Is my profile too vanilla - 9/27/2006 9:18:17 AM   
MySweetSubmssive


Posts: 1139
Joined: 2/7/2006
From: Lehigh Valley, PA
Status: offline 		I really enjoy reading your profile (I've read it a number of times over the past 6 or 7 months to maintain my sanity that submissive men of my liking exist).  In in you present yourself as a dedicated service-oriented submissive who is a whole person.  That you talk about yourself says to me that you want the reader to know who you are *and* that you would want to know her as well.  You say in the headline that you are relationship-oriented.  This would suggests that you would not thrive being the cleaning man supervised by this woman's secretary.  The problem doesn't lie with you, but with the person interpreting your tact as a lack of interest in BDSM play or sexual intimacy.  The question is not whether you are getting responses from inappropriate people (this is inevitable), but whether you are communicating well to attract the dominants you *do* have commonality with.

As to not getting in touch with dominant woman because you don't want to be part of the submissive man deluge ... may I say that this made my head twist around?  It would be so nice if the men who aren't my cup of tea (quick sex wankers, fetish-list brandishers) would go away.  However, your decision to not get in touch with dominants because there are many inappropriate men getting in touch at the same time is bad reasoning, and ... it's demoralizing for dominants who are seeking someone like you!  By not getting in touch, you're actually *increasing* the proportion of wankers who send mail.  It's not going to help you get what you want, either.  I do hope you'll reconsider your stance on this, even while you maintain your hope that dominant women will get in touch with you.

I like your profile because it represents you as serious in your BDSM interests, intelligent, thoughtful, complex, down-to-earth and credible.

MSS

_____________________________

"Oh, James, you're such a cunning linguist."

--Miss Moneypenny

(in reply to Frank01)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: A bdsmer's fear: Is my profile too vanilla - 9/27/2006 9:43:57 AM   
Amaros


Posts: 1363
Joined: 7/25/2005
Status: offline 		Haha, this is the great unsolvable riddle: how to appeal to the widest audience without either coming on too hard or too soft.

There are tons of threads in here by submissives complaining about guys tht come on too hard, and yet deep down, I think all dominant seekers feel on a gut level that if they don't come on hard, they'll be dissed as being "fakes" or whatever. leads to a lot of confusion, and I'm still not too sure how to approach it myself.

I've settled on the soft sell mostly, I have to, out of neccessity, mostly consider only those who are willing to relocate, which requires a level of trust much greater than someone who is in a better position to "try before they buy", and find the right person though the usual dating style methods.

I'm also more interested in women I can relate to on a roughly equal intellectual level, not neccessarily somebody that want's me to run their life for them, and these women I suspect, are less prone to respond well to an overbearing approach.

I never quite know however, just how strong to come on, particularly online where I can't read facial expressions or body language, and too hard for one is too soft for another.

Truth is, I tend to come on pretty easy at first, and I am basically pretty easy for the most part, but I have enough  leadership experience to finesse levels of control to pretty near any level that might be required. I have reasonably high standards and expectations, and I can come on real hard once I get up a head of steam.

At the same time, I'm objective and experienced enought to control myself, and while I can be moody, in fact I have an almost inhuman amount of self control, something some people find almost terrifying in itself - I have almost too much control over my emotions at times.

Now how the hell do you describe that in your profile without just sounding grandiose?

(in reply to MySweetSubmssive)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: A bdsmer's fear: Is my profile too vanilla - 9/27/2006 9:44:54 AM   
raiken


Posts: 868
Joined: 10/18/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Frank01

My profile states absolutely nothing about me, and to go away. I figure if someone is interested in me-they will bother to read my forum posts. I'm not going to post a spec sheet for lazy shoppers-that's not the sort of individual who appeals to me. I like someone who gets off on achievment.


Not everyone is a forum poster, as not everyone is here to hang out on cyber forums, they are here to meet friends, or that special someone.  i don't always have time to "read" and "post" in web forums.  If a person has nothing in their profile, than i do not bother to contact that person.  Blanks turn me off. *grin i figure that since i have taken the time to make an interesting read about the person i am, i look for others who have that same "mindset."  i don't judge people as being "lazy shoppers" simply because i understand TIME constraints, for i have those tight constraints on my time as well.  My time is very precious to me.  Having nothing in a profile, does not make me want to approach that person. For what?  It is like blind or "blank profile" dating...i don't generally enjoy that! LOL! i just don't do blanks.

(in reply to Frank01)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: A bdsmer's fear: Is my profile too vanilla - 9/27/2006 9:48:21 AM   
gardenbluebird


Posts: 131
Joined: 5/9/2006
Status: offline 		I'm not a Domme, but I am a smart sincere woman.  The type of profile that appeals to me is very much like yours (except Dominant variety).  I like to know who a person is, I like well-written prose, and I like someone who is sincere in his desires.  Your profile contains all of that.  There is no need to change it.

(in reply to MySweetSubmssive)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: A bdsmer's fear: Is my profile too vanilla - 9/27/2006 9:52:01 AM   
raiken


Posts: 868
Joined: 10/18/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaros

Now how the hell do you describe that in your profile without just sounding grandiose?



You did a good job explaining it here as far as my view is concerned. *grin  i can relate to the self control thing, i have often been described as the calm and level headed one in my circles.  There is a fine line of demarcation as to the difference of being in control, and the difference of being too controlled to deny oneself to feel.  It seems you have a healthy understanding of yourself in this area.  For some, this type of self control can be powerfully intimidating and misunderstood, even cause others to be fearful, etc., and for others, it is a powerful attractor and turn on, due to mutual understanding of such principles. Thanks for sharing. *smile

(in reply to Amaros)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: A bdsmer's fear: Is my profile too vanilla - 9/27/2006 9:52:02 AM   
gardenbluebird


Posts: 131
Joined: 5/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Frank01

My profile states absolutely nothing about me, and to go away. I figure if someone is interested in me-they will bother to read my forum posts. I'm not going to post a spec sheet for lazy shoppers-that's not the sort of individual who appeals to me. I like someone who gets off on achievment.


And you have found this approach to be an effective way to find a partner?

Achievement has many flavors.  I wouldn't consider achievement the ability to read forums and ignore instructions to "go away."  I consider achievement the ability to set goals and work hard to accomplish them, but to each their own.

(in reply to Frank01)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: A bdsmer's fear: Is my profile too vanilla - 9/27/2006 10:00:54 AM   
AAkasha


Posts: 4429
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MsKatHouston



I missed this little tidbit and I have to agree.  I rarely initiate contact with a submissive and I don't think I'm in the minority here as far as fem doms are concerned.  You may be greatly limiting your prospective partners by not taking a chance and emailing some of the Dommes you are interested in.


Many subs do not want to contact dominant women because they are worried that they are bothering them -- and, because being "the pursuer" goes against their submissive nature. They are just not inclined to want to win attention, it's more in their nature to be pursued.

If the submissive, though, is never being pursued, then obviously this will not work.  Whether it be shyness or the fact that being aggressive does not match their fantasy, they have to get out of the frame of mind -- unless they happen to be so charismatic that they light up a room when they walk in, so charming that every lady takes notice, and so much a social butterlfy that they are in the presence of femdoms on a very regular basis.  Otherwise, they will go totally unnoticed.

It's important that submissives know how to be aggressive about one thing: finding the right woman, standing apart from the others, and being very willing to demonstrate that he's looking for her attention/consideration. If he just has the approach that he will "sort of" make himself known, come across as "polite and unobtrusive" and sort of like "hey, I'm here if you need me" the he sets himself up to be either invisible, or used as a "friend" or "guy to carry my stuff to the munch" -- meanwhile, the femdom is pursuing the subs that are more engaging, actively pursuing her (without being pushy or aggressive).

It's a careful balance, but it works.  One thing that does not work is sitting back and waiting for women to contact you if you are submissive.  Maybe that would have worked 5 - 10 years ago on the Internet, but now there are 1000s of submissive men; finding ONE is like finding a needle in a haystack if a woman has specific interests.

Akasha


_____________________________

Akasha's Web - All original Femdom content since 1995
Don't email me here, email me at [email protected]

(in reply to MsKatHouston)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: A bdsmer's fear: Is my profile too vanilla - 9/27/2006 10:12:49 AM   
Frank01


Posts: 270
Joined: 9/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: raiken

quote:

ORIGINAL: Frank01

My profile states absolutely nothing about me, and to go away. I figure if someone is interested in me-they will bother to read my forum posts. I'm not going to post a spec sheet for lazy shoppers-that's not the sort of individual who appeals to me. I like someone who gets off on achievment.


Not everyone is a forum poster, as not everyone is here to hang out on cyber forums, they are here to meet friends, or that special someone.  i don't always have time to "read" and "post" in web forums.  If a person has nothing in their profile, than i do not bother to contact that person.  Blanks turn me off. *grin i figure that since i have taken the time to make an interesting read about the person i am, i look for others who have that same "mindset."  i don't judge people as being "lazy shoppers" simply because i understand TIME constraints, for i have those tight constraints on my time as well.  My time is very precious to me.  Having nothing in a profile, does not make me want to approach that person. For what?  It is like blind or "blank profile" dating...i don't generally enjoy that! LOL! i just don't do blanks.


But I mostly come here for entertainment on work breaks. I have no expectations beyond that-I'm not exactly desperate.

(in reply to raiken)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: A bdsmer's fear: Is my profile too vanilla - 9/27/2006 10:15:04 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

There are tons of threads in here by submissives complaining about guys tht come on too hard, and yet deep down, I think all dominant seekers feel on a gut level that if they don't come on hard, they'll be dissed as being "fakes" or whatever. leads to a lot of confusion, and I'm still not too sure how to approach it myself.


Only a novice that thinks the opening lines from twue dominants reads "Get on your knees slut" would consider  soft sell dominants are "fakes". In fact I always thought it was rather domly to not have to sell me at all on a person, but rather let their lives speak for themselves.

I think people should polish their approaches to put their best foot forward, but it should still be their foot that they put forward and not a fake foot. I think people will have much more luck being themselves.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Amaros)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: A bdsmer's fear: Is my profile too vanilla - 9/27/2006 10:21:00 AM   
WhyteRavenne


Posts: 125
Joined: 9/16/2006
Status: offline 		I find profiles such as yours, refreshing.

I have a habit of writing to anyone that has some other aspects to their life than just sex and kink (which so many profiles I have seen are).  I should, however, mention, that I also like to know about people and not just their titles.

Of course, it should also be mentioned here, I have a longer profile, and fill my "journal" with more information, should someone be interested in myself, as well.

I guess it is a fine line of expressing yourself and exposing yourself.

Bovines and good luck...

(Hmmm, I wonder if I should add in my profile that I prefer people who play video games???  Nyah (envisions kink field shrinking at the notion)...)

_____________________________

Last night, you were, unhinged. You were like some desperate, howling demon. You frightened me.... do it again! - Morticia Addams

(in reply to littlesarbonn)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: A bdsmer's fear: Is my profile too vanilla - 9/27/2006 10:21:34 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Frank01

quote:

ORIGINAL: raiken

quote:

ORIGINAL: Frank01

My profile states absolutely nothing about me, and to go away. I figure if someone is interested in me-they will bother to read my forum posts. I'm not going to post a spec sheet for lazy shoppers-that's not the sort of individual who appeals to me. I like someone who gets off on achievment.


Not everyone is a forum poster, as not everyone is here to hang out on cyber forums, they are here to meet friends, or that special someone.  i don't always have time to "read" and "post" in web forums.  If a person has nothing in their profile, than i do not bother to contact that person.  Blanks turn me off. *grin i figure that since i have taken the time to make an interesting read about the person i am, i look for others who have that same "mindset."  i don't judge people as being "lazy shoppers" simply because i understand TIME constraints, for i have those tight constraints on my time as well.  My time is very precious to me.  Having nothing in a profile, does not make me want to approach that person. For what?  It is like blind or "blank profile" dating...i don't generally enjoy that! LOL! i just don't do blanks.


But I mostly come here for entertainment on work breaks. I have no expectations beyond that-I'm not exactly desperate.


So people who look online and post profiles about themselves and have the expectation of meeting someone "desperate". As someone who was found via internet profile I do not think I was desperate...and I found someone that has exceeded expectations. He is far from desperate too.. he is handsome, makes a decent living, has interesting hobbies, and is intelligent and educated and he did not think he was too good to post a profile, email me, and he did not expect me to read his posts here... He inspired me to.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Frank01)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: A bdsmer's fear: Is my profile too vanilla - 9/27/2006 10:28:46 AM   
Aubre


Posts: 478
Joined: 12/9/2004
Status: offline 		Somehow I think your profile became much more effective without you doing anything to it, littlesarbonn. Kudos to you :)

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 20
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