Transplants in China (Full Version)

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LadyEllen -> Transplants in China (9/27/2006 10:43:03 AM)

On BBC news tonight - not really news as its something we all likely knew about already - but sounds like one of "those" threads to me.

China executes more prisoners every year than the rest of the world combined. Those executed are returned to their families as ashes. But along the way to the crematorium, the bodies are harvested of organs which are then used for transplant in operations sold to foreigners in China. A liver transplant comes in at around GBP 50k apparently.

So, bearing in mind that these people are being executed for often petty crimes after extremely dodgy trials, and that the Chinese government is making a fortune out of this practice and is therefore willing to sentence more and more people to death for lesser and lesser crimes;

If your child were dying and needed a transplant and you had the money - would you go to China and pay for such an operation, if no suitable options were available at home? Or would you find the entire thing so immoral that you'd rather see your child suffer and die than take part in such a trade?

E



juliaoceania -> RE: Transplants in China (9/27/2006 10:54:18 AM)

I would die for such a statement against such cruelty

I do not know if I would make such a stand with my child's life, I do not know if that is a fair question to even ask. I would probably do almost anything to save the life of my child... including selling my soul if souls could be sold



Chaingang -> RE: Transplants in China (9/27/2006 10:58:15 AM)

Ugly American: Well, those people all look alike anyway. Why not kill a few and harvest them for their organs? More lookalikes will just spring up to replace them. Money talks, baby. So how much really - bottom line, eh?



LadyEllen -> RE: Transplants in China (9/27/2006 10:58:51 AM)

You know Julia, if it were just me I'd absolutely refuse to take part. Thats why I mentioned a child as the potential recipient - it really puts the question to the test, doesnt it?

I'm so angry that the Chinese do this - but at the same time I'm not sure I could let my son or daughter die without trying any and every possible way to keep them alive. Its an awful dilemna guaranteed to test the moral steadfastness of any parent.

E



MrrPete -> RE: Transplants in China (9/27/2006 11:07:19 AM)

What China is doing is flat wrong in my books but I can understand WHY they do it.

Besides I don't have the money anyhow





popeye1250 -> RE: Transplants in China (9/27/2006 12:00:01 PM)

China or Bust!
If they're going to execute them anyway what's the difference?
"Hey Sargeant, do a head-shot on that one will ya I'm here for a heart transplant!"
I wouldn't accept a transplant from an al qeada guy though.
They should just shoot them in the back of the head like the Russians do and dump them 100 miles off Gtmo.



Zensee -> RE: Transplants in China (9/27/2006 1:11:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
China or Bust!
If they're going to execute them anyway what's the difference?
"Hey Sargeant, do a head-shot on that one will ya I'm here for a heart transplant!"
I wouldn't accept a transplant from an al qeada guy though.
They should just shoot them in the back of the head like the Russians do and dump them 100 miles off Gtmo.

So you'd take a transplant from a person quite likely executed for a non-capital crime by a notorious dictatorship but you'd refuse one from someone you suspect of being a terrorist enemy of your own democratic super power?

Do you have any idea how morally fucked up that is?
0



toservez -> RE: Transplants in China (9/27/2006 1:46:18 PM)

I certainly would not do it to save my own life, but if I had a child all bets would be off. Personally I have less of a problem with them harvesting the organs then the fact they would sell them to the highest bidder. That is where my big issue and protest would be.







popeye1250 -> RE: Transplants in China (9/27/2006 1:48:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
China or Bust!
If they're going to execute them anyway what's the difference?
"Hey Sargeant, do a head-shot on that one will ya I'm here for a heart transplant!"
I wouldn't accept a transplant from an al qeada guy though.
They should just shoot them in the back of the head like the Russians do and dump them 100 miles off Gtmo.

So you'd take a transplant from a person quite likely executed for a non-capital crime by a notorious dictatorship but you'd refuse one from someone you suspect of being a terrorist enemy of your own democratic super power?

Do you have any idea how morally fucked up that is?
0


Zensee, very good, you got that exactly right!
I don't check the "Morals Handbook" before I take a leak either.
What's the matter don't you like your body transplant parts freshly killed?



popeye1250 -> RE: Transplants in China (9/27/2006 2:50:22 PM)

Zensee, I don't have any kids so that part's irrelevant but if you had a 50/50 chance of getting a heart transplant or dieing in the U.S. or you could go to China and get one right away you mean to tell me you wouldn't do it?
As for the crime would you prefer a child molestor's heart or a murderer's heart? What's the diff? What if they didn't tell you what kind of crime your donor committed?
Besides, it's Chinese culture, that's how they do things over there.

Now me, I'd be bringing the bullets over to kill the guy with!
I wonder if they let you watch the executions?
"Sarg, I'll take that big scruffy guy over there! Here's an extra $20 for a between the eyes shot, so don't fuckin miss!"
Maybe they'd let you pose for pictures with your ahem, "donor".
Then, you could send postcards to your friends.



Rule -> RE: Transplants in China (9/27/2006 3:09:22 PM)

I consider all transplants immoral.
 
I can understand desperate relatives to give up a kidney to save a loved one, but even that I do not approve off either.
 
When it is your time, it is your time. Do not cling to life, as it often only serves to extend your suffering.
 
I am also opposed to most medical treatments. It is only very rarely that someone is truly cured by it. (antibiotics and aspirin being just about the only effective medications)
Usually when someone gets another medication for one illness their health in other respects starts to go downhill quickly.



meatcleaver -> RE: Transplants in China (9/27/2006 3:25:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

I consider all transplants immoral.
 
I can understand desperate relatives to give up a kidney to save a loved one, but even that I do not approve off either.
 
When it is your time, it is your time. Do not cling to life, as it often only serves to extend your suffering.
 


I can't help but think there is some bullshit here. Where do you stop or start with medical intervention? A cut finger? What would you do, let them die and so decrease the surplus population? There is nothing wrong with medical or humanitarian intervention as long as it is ethical and moral. Kidney and even heart transplants nowadays do not prolong suffering but alleviate it and lengthen life.

As to the OP, it is full of moral objections and dilemas. For myself I wouldn't use an organ that has been obtained in such a way but as for my child, I can already hear myself rationalizing away my objections in my head.



juliaoceania -> RE: Transplants in China (9/27/2006 3:47:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Zensee, I don't have any kids so that part's irrelevant but if you had a 50/50 chance of getting a heart transplant or dieing in the U.S. or you could go to China and get one right away you mean to tell me you wouldn't do it?
As for the crime would you prefer a child molestor's heart or a murderer's heart? What's the diff? What if they didn't tell you what kind of crime your donor committed?
Besides, it's Chinese culture, that's how they do things over there.

Now me, I'd be bringing the bullets over to kill the guy with!
I wonder if they let you watch the executions?
"Sarg, I'll take that big scruffy guy over there! Here's an extra $20 for a between the eyes shot, so don't fuckin miss!"
Maybe they'd let you pose for pictures with your ahem, "donor".
Then, you could send postcards to your friends.


Personally I think it is fucked up to increase demand so the Chinese can find more people to kill for a profit on trumped up charges so some lazy-assed couch potato American that ate too many transfats at McDonalds can fly his clogged valve useless waste of a life over to China to receive the heart of a teenager that stole a bag of rice or some shit... but that is just me and I have something called values.



LotusSong -> RE: Transplants in China (9/27/2006 3:49:48 PM)

Desperate times call for desperate measures.



MrDiscipline44 -> RE: Transplants in China (9/27/2006 3:53:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

China executes more prisoners every year than the rest of the world combined. Those executed are returned to their families as ashes. But along the way to the crematorium, the bodies are harvested of organs which are then used for transplant in operations sold to foreigners in China. A liver transplant comes in at around GBP 50k apparently.

So, bearing in mind that these people are being executed for often petty crimes after extremely dodgy trials, and that the Chinese government is making a fortune out of this practice and is therefore willing to sentence more and more people to death for lesser and lesser crimes;

If your child were dying and needed a transplant and you had the money - would you go to China and pay for such an operation, if no suitable options were available at home? Or would you find the entire thing so immoral that you'd rather see your child suffer and die than take part in such a trade?

E
Yes, I'd go and get the transplant. After all, it's not like picking out the lobster your going to eat out of the aquarium. If I didn't get the transplant, what would happen? The prisoner is going to die anyway and consequently, so would I. But if I take his heart, live or whatever, at least part of this person has done some good in someone elses life and lives on instead of their life just ending for nothing.



toservez -> RE: Transplants in China (9/27/2006 4:06:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

I consider all transplants immoral.
 
I can understand desperate relatives to give up a kidney to save a loved one, but even that I do not approve off either.
 
When it is your time, it is your time. Do not cling to life, as it often only serves to extend your suffering.
 
I am also opposed to most medical treatments. It is only very rarely that someone is truly cured by it. (antibiotics and aspirin being just about the only effective medications)
Usually when someone gets another medication for one illness their health in other respects starts to go downhill quickly.


I may despise people who for religious beliefs do not believe in medical treatment but at least I can understand where they are coming from. Your statements are either meant to be somewhat joking or are blatantly ignorant. Many many treatments cure or manage people's medical problems outside of anitbiotics. Just look at all the cancer survivors for one.

As far as the emotional standpoint, try looking into a dying kids eyes knowing you cannot do anything for them, let alone to actually have options and to tell them why bother is much different then some abstract opinion.



popeye1250 -> RE: Transplants in China (9/27/2006 4:24:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Zensee, I don't have any kids so that part's irrelevant but if you had a 50/50 chance of getting a heart transplant or dieing in the U.S. or you could go to China and get one right away you mean to tell me you wouldn't do it?
As for the crime would you prefer a child molestor's heart or a murderer's heart? What's the diff? What if they didn't tell you what kind of crime your donor committed?
Besides, it's Chinese culture, that's how they do things over there.

Now me, I'd be bringing the bullets over to kill the guy with!
I wonder if they let you watch the executions?
"Sarg, I'll take that big scruffy guy over there! Here's an extra $20 for a between the eyes shot, so don't fuckin miss!"
Maybe they'd let you pose for pictures with your ahem, "donor".
Then, you could send postcards to your friends.


Personally I think it is fucked up to increase demand so the Chinese can find more people to kill for a profit on trumped up charges so some lazy-assed couch potato American that ate too many transfats at McDonalds can fly his clogged valve useless waste of a life over to China to receive the heart of a teenager that stole a bag of rice or some shit... but that is just me and I have something called values.


Julia, "stealing a bag of rice or something?"
I want the heart of a RAPIST!
With 1.2 BILLION people there do you think they're going to run out of "donors" anytime soon?



MrDiscipline44 -> RE: Transplants in China (9/27/2006 4:31:29 PM)

Well they can always get more "donors" from Korea or Taiwan. Hell, the could just take people from over their northern border and say they were illegal immigrants. I just hope they come up with some cures from the stem cell research they do on those fetuses they abort regularly. Cycle of life, some die so that others can continue eating a Big Mac.



marieToo -> RE: Transplants in China (9/27/2006 4:46:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Zensee, I don't have any kids so that part's irrelevant but if you had a 50/50 chance of getting a heart transplant or dieing in the U.S. or you could go to China and get one right away you mean to tell me you wouldn't do it?
As for the crime would you prefer a child molestor's heart or a murderer's heart? What's the diff? What if they didn't tell you what kind of crime your donor committed?
Besides, it's Chinese culture, that's how they do things over there.

Now me, I'd be bringing the bullets over to kill the guy with!
I wonder if they let you watch the executions?
"Sarg, I'll take that big scruffy guy over there! Here's an extra $20 for a between the eyes shot, so don't fuckin miss!"
Maybe they'd let you pose for pictures with your ahem, "donor".
Then, you could send postcards to your friends.


Personally I think it is fucked up to increase demand so the Chinese can find more people to kill for a profit on trumped up charges so some lazy-assed couch potato American that ate too many transfats at McDonalds can fly his clogged valve useless waste of a life over to China to receive the heart of a teenager that stole a bag of rice or some shit... but that is just me and I have something called values.


I dont agree with railroading people (Chinese or otherwise) in order to harvest their organs.  It doesnt get more wrong than that. 

But certainly not everyone in need of a transplant is a "useless waste of life" or a "lazy assed couch potato.

I dont think anyone should be exploited in such a way,  to save another's life or to generate $$.  But Im not sure how that makes all of those in need of organ transplants "useless wastes of life". 



Zensee -> RE: Transplants in China (9/27/2006 4:50:30 PM)

Pull the other one Popeye - it's got bells on. 0



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