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Is BDSM a move evolved type of sexuality? - 9/27/2006 9:50:02 PM   
crouchingtigress


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Status: offline 		or is it less evolved?
this is a conversation i am having with some one at this time...what are your thoughts?

(copied and pasted to better explain it better)
 
well one point is that it is more evolved because folks are so upfront about needs and desires, and interactions are often negotiated, and there are skill levels, as well as a fairly complex and emotionaly mature network of support.
 
and the other point is that it is less evolved because that it is harder to negotiate and navigate as equals, as that there is no final say, and that a power X dynamic is easier because it is more primitive and primal personality response..

edited to try to be clearer with my question.

< Message edited by crouchingtigress -- 9/27/2006 10:17:51 PM >

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RE: Is BDSM a move evolved type of sexuality? - 9/27/2006 9:51:12 PM   
Amaros


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Status: offline 		Yes.  And no.

Heh, that help?

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RE: Is BDSM a move evolved type of sexuality? - 9/27/2006 9:51:21 PM   
mistoferin


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RE: Is BDSM a move evolved type of sexuality? - 9/27/2006 9:52:51 PM   
NastyDaddy


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Status: offline 		Define "move evolved".

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RE: Is BDSM a move evolved type of sexuality? - 9/27/2006 9:53:15 PM   
Lorelei115


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From: Sin City
Status: offline 		I consider it a branch of, not an advanced form of sexuality.

Edited to add: "More evolved" would be when you could actually read each others minds, IMO. God, wouldnt that be fun?

< Message edited by Lorelei115 -- 9/27/2006 9:55:29 PM >

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RE: Is BDSM a move evolved type of sexuality? - 9/27/2006 9:56:54 PM   
juliaoceania


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Status: offline 		Has it evolved within humans? Most certainly, but it has been around in human populations since the dawn of human kind I am sure. I think that many people cross culturally enjoy rougher sex, and power exchange is almost always an issue between people unless their culture defines their relationships... Even then some women have been more powerful than their husbands, and some husbands have been more meek.

So power battles have always been with us, fights for dominance and control in relationships, people who cede power naturally too.

I think that our development of a BDSM subculture is just an aknowledgement of that which already existed

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RE: Is BDSM a move evolved type of sexuality? - 9/27/2006 9:57:40 PM   
Mercnbeth


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Status: offline 		BDSM was how I identified my sexuality from the very start. To me BDSM intimacy and sexual intimacy are no different. There is no higher or more evolved quality, rather one helps define the other. I believe that even the most vanilla of relationship has some BDSM aspect, and the most intense BDSM dynamic has at least a dash of vanilla.

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RE: Is BDSM a move evolved type of sexuality? - 9/27/2006 10:01:39 PM   
Lordandmaster


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Status: offline 		I don't know if it's more evolved, but it's certainly more enjoyable!

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RE: Is BDSM a move evolved type of sexuality? - 9/27/2006 10:02:53 PM   
Amaros


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Status: offline 		Sorry, the pain pills wore off about an hour ago - here's pretty much what I might have said, to start with, if I could sit in this chair any longer, I can't pace and type - I need to get some voice recognition software - or a secretary.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_592203/mpage_3/key_/tm.htm#594336

Breifly, in the Christian tradition of marriage, consent is given once - as soon as the ring is on your finger, consent is presumed to be tacit til death, etc.

Sounds great to romantic Uchronians, but leaves the door open to profound, abundant abuse, which until recently was also largely tacitly condoned, when not unequivocally enabled.



< Message edited by Amaros -- 9/27/2006 10:09:08 PM >

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RE: Is BDSM a move evolved type of sexuality? - 9/27/2006 10:10:57 PM   
crouchingtigress


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Status: offline 		well one point is that it is more evolved because folks are so upfront about needs and desires, and interactions are often negotiated, and there are skill levels, as well as a fairly complex and emotionaly mature network of support.
 
and the other point is that it is less evolved because that it is harder to negotiate and navigate as equals, as that there is no final say, and that a power X dynamic is easier because it is more primitive and primal personality response..

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RE: Is BDSM a move evolved type of sexuality? - 9/27/2006 10:18:44 PM   
CrappyDom


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Status: offline 		It isn't anything.

There are people who practice Buddhism who are shallow self centered assholes and there are right wing knuckle dragging Christians who are actually decent human beings.  There are tops who have deeply spiritual sex and their are Masters with slaves who are both full of shit.

No matter what bullshit label you slap on something it is still a label, it is the actions not the words that define things.  Same goes for Tantric sex, lots of great words but to some it is just a come on line to get laid.

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RE: Is BDSM a move evolved type of sexuality? - 9/27/2006 10:21:15 PM   
crouchingtigress


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Status: offline 		yeah i hear all that....but i was not asking from a philosophical POV. i was wondering what peoples thoughts were, unfortunately i was able to articulate it well the first time....

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

It isn't anything.

There are people who practice Buddhism who are shallow self centered assholes and there are right wing knuckle dragging Christians who are actually decent human beings.  There are tops who have deeply spiritual sex and their are Masters with slaves who are both full of shit.

No matter what bullshit label you slap on something it is still a label, it is the actions not the words that define things.  Same goes for Tantric sex, lots of great words but to some it is just a come on line to get laid.


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RE: Is BDSM a move evolved type of sexuality? - 9/27/2006 10:21:18 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress

well one point is that it is more evolved because folks are so upfront about needs and desires, and interactions are often negotiated, and there are skill levels, as well as a fairly complex and emotionaly mature network of support.
 
and the other point is that it is less evolved because that it is harder to negotiate and navigate as equals, as that there is no final say, and that a power X dynamic is easier because it is more primitive and primal personality response..


We really do not know what our original ancestors did, they were probably fairly egaltarian seeing most modern hunter/gatherer groups are, and that means they might have had many different sort of dynamics going on, who knows what they called them, or if they called them anything at all

Native Americans had a special place for those with ambigious sexuality. If someone was like we consider transexual today, well they were often revered in pre-colombian America. These people were often shamans and were like Oprahs of their day, counciling people with relationship difficulties

They were also the ambassadors of their tribes often, because they were seen as able to bridge the gap of difference, unfortunately the Christians did not have much tolerance for these sorts and stamped out their place in Native American society.

Some had husbands and wives both by the way (bisexuality and polygamy).

Thought that might shed some light on lifeways outside of Western Civ

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 9/27/2006 10:25:10 PM >

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RE: Is BDSM a move evolved type of sexuality? - 9/27/2006 10:26:37 PM   
crouchingtigress


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Status: offline 		aloha julia,
 
awesome history info there.....let me re-ask my question for a sec, do you think it is harder for a couple to navigate in a relationship as equals where there is no final say, or harder to navigate in Power Xes, because of the learning curve and mental and emotional intricacies involved in wiitwd?

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RE: Is BDSM a move evolved type of sexuality? - 9/27/2006 10:38:08 PM   
juliaoceania


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Status: offline 		I believe it is harder as equals where the standards is one of both having equal say. I believe that the relationships I have seen that were more successful have a meek mannered person and I more assertive person. I believe balance is essential in life and while to halves only make a hole to fall into, we can help each other compensate by balancing each other's strengths and weaknesses.

There is strength in being meek and there is strength in being assertive.

I do not think that one or the other sex should be default ruler of the roost so to speak, but I think someone needs to lead more than the other for it to work because sooner or later your goals are going to come into conflict. When both people cannot have their way someone has to give, it is easier if there is a follower and a leader.

That does not mean the meeker person should not take stands for things that are truly important to them, or that the more asserttive person should not recognize how much the meeker person gives on a daily basis before making painful decisions, but someone has to make the final decision.. if both are doing it sooner or later it could become a decision to part ways.

That is part of the appeal of WIITWD for me, it gives that power making structure to our relationship

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RE: Is BDSM a move evolved type of sexuality? - 9/27/2006 10:39:00 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress
well one point is that it is more evolved because folks are so upfront about needs and desires,

*snort* Sure if you leave out the 40% of the people in the scene who are cheating, and the other 30% who are too insecure to be open and playing games on the others.

quote:

 and interactions are often negotiated, and there are skill levels, as well as a fairly complex and emotionaly mature network of support.

Uhhh there is?  You're going to have to point that out to me...I sure haven't found it, certainly nothing different than what I'd find in the vanilla world and quite often in the scene more often a group of kinkier than thou shits who act noble in the pursuit of more pussy and prestige.

quote:

and the other point is that it is less evolved because that it is harder to negotiate and navigate as equals, as that there is no final say, and that a power X dynamic is easier because it is more primitive and primal personality response..

edited to try to be clearer with my question.

Where on earth are you coming up with these ideas?  How is obeying authority a personality response at ALL let alone a more primal and primitive one?

BDSM is a type of activity.  Pretty much on par with something like rock climbing- except not as many fat people do rock climbing.

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RE: Is BDSM a move evolved type of sexuality? - 9/27/2006 10:41:17 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress
awesome history info there.....let me re-ask my question for a sec, do you think it is harder for a couple to navigate in a relationship as equals where there is no final say, or harder to navigate in Power Xes, because of the learning curve and mental and emotional intricacies involved in wiitwd?

There's ALWAYS a learning curve.  It's simply harder for most people because in todays world MOST people enter the scene AFTER teaching themselves about monogamous vanilla relationships and completely fucking them up.

Give it a few generations and you'll see the learning curve in bdsm relationships is pretty much identical to that of vanilla.

Oh and neither is easier or harder in general, it just depends on the person and relationship.

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RE: Is BDSM a move evolved type of sexuality? - 9/27/2006 10:41:25 PM   
crouchingtigress


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quote:


BDSM is a type of activity.  Pretty much on par with something like rock climbing- except not as many fat people do rock climbing.


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RE: Is BDSM a move evolved type of sexuality? - 9/27/2006 10:57:03 PM   
WhipTheHip


Posts: 1004
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Status: offline 		I think bdsm and D/s are part of an old evolutionary design, where
females were amassed by the strongest caveman with the biggest
club, where tribes, social groups, and  villiages were conquered
and females taken slave by the conquerors.   I think it is a coping
mechanism.  It is innurment.   Humans are highly adaptive, and
can learn to tolerate and enjoy most anything.  If someone is
subjected to enough abuse, they can eventually learn to enjoy
it.  Also, submissive women who mated with dominant males
had a better chance of producing offspring that would survive
to reproduce.  Likewise, submissive males who mated with
dominant females had a better chance of having offspring
that would live to reproduce.    Some submissiveness in
males can be attributed to the fact that some men are
not fully masculinized.  All fetuses start off female.  Male
hormones act the fetus to make it male.   Female fetuses
exposed to higher levels of androgens can have
masculine traits.  Whereas male fetuses not exposed
to high enough levels of androgens can be less masculine.
 
I know the plural of "fetus" is not "fetuses."
 
 

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RE: Is BDSM a move evolved type of sexuality? - 9/27/2006 11:53:40 PM   
Frank01


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Status: offline 		If I had strictly to judge by what I see of the majority of people within it-no.

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