RE: Ownership and love (Full Version)

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Noah -> RE: Ownership and love (9/29/2006 8:51:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hotwife

If they are truly giving everything of themselves, how could they NOT fall in love with Master?


If they are truly giving everything of themselves, how could they not have themselves ground up into burgers for his cannibalistic delight?

I think my question is only somewhat sillier than yours.

Setting aside the fact that many (MANY) submissives/slaves/bottoms just shudder and quake at the very word "giving". "Submission is a not a gift!", they scream over and over. Whatever. This contention has as much value for me as a screaming fit over whether to call a tomato a vegetable or a fruit. But then I suppose that on a deep level I understand their rants as poorly as they undertand the people who find a good use for the term "gift" in this context.

But you, Hotwife, like to think in terms of giving yourself. I think that's is fine so far. But to say "give everything of yourself" has to be meant in some poetic way because, as the canibalism example shows (and many more mundane examples show even better) a person just can't give "everything" of herself.

(A famous person once said: "There is never a need to be less than impeccable with one's words, it's just being lazy, or like a child, being cranky and wanting to hang on to what's familiar," though I think she was overstating the case.)

So when you say "everything" you mean to include love, maybe, and someone else doesn't, and maybe for very particular reasons. Maybe when they say "everything" they mean that they give up their career and maybe you don't mean that. And both of those are okay. But should someone come here and post "If they are truly giving everything of themselves, how could they NOT give up their career (or children, or birth family, or health, or friends, or etc. etc.)"

I think a good thing to keep in mind is that other people have relationships which can work in ways quite different than our own, and still work fine. If a couple of people find fulfilment in a power exchange relationship which doesn't involve love, well isn't that just fine (I realize that you didn't say otherwise and I'm not trying to put words in your mouth)? As to the question of "how" well it could happen in any number of ways.

I am aware of one woman here who seems quite determined never to give her heart again. She describes this in terms of an inability arising from a previous relationship. Maybe it is or maybe it is an unwillingness. I sure can't tell and I'm not at all sure that she can tell either. Either way, she still seems to have powerfully submissive instincts. Would it be possible for someone like her to give (fully) of herself to another Master in an effort to first of all fulfill some sense of destiny and then perhaps to offer up her lifelong submission to an unloved Master as a sort of prayer to the one she does love but from whom she has been separated by death or some other eventuality?

Or what about a very deep masochism? Could a person reject the notion of a loviing relationship so as to add a further layer of excruciating mortification to the unpleasant things they intend to undergo? The pain of being unloved is a very deep pain for some people--maybe too difficult to resist for some emotional masochists. AnI would think that the pain of not loving can cut just as deep.

And really, if some other woman is giving her master everything you are giving yours, and giving up to him her chance to love as well, would you insist that your submission is more thorough than hers?

I expect that either you, Hotwife, or I, could keep spinning up scenarios for as long as we cared to. Scenarios to account for how--in a given case--someone: Is truly giving everything of themselves, yet NOT falling in love with Master

It just takes all kinds. You know?

As a sort of aesthetic preference I think I would favor an expression like: "I offer all I have to give," which may still be understood poetically, over a claim like "I give everything of myself." In the prior expression I find less to stumble over conceptually and as well it presents a lovely sort of humility unrelated to mere modesty or to shame.

Anyway, wouldn't an attempt to "give everything" lead to just the sort of problem you got in to with the unloved leftovers? Shouldn't some thought be given to what the intended recipient wants to recieve, irrespective of whether or not you want to give it, or can hardly help giving it, for that matter?

None of this was meant to amount to picking at words. Based on some entries in your journal I believe you may be able to appreciate that rather than pick at words I have been trying to cast a little bit of light from slightly different angles. What you see as a result--if anything--is your business.



Archer -> RE: Ownership and love (9/29/2006 9:44:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hotwife

If they are truly giving everything of themselves, how could they NOT fall in love with Master?


The same way a priest gives everything to God and lives a life of service
The same way any number of people committed to a cause can throw away what everyone else sees as valuable to enable them to run off after that dream.
The same way a public defender who works only with legal aid cases and is a workaholic commits themself to their work.
The same way thousands of people around the world commit themselves to any number of things that require what apears to be insane sacrifices to anyone not similarly motivated to service.

Mastery and slavery as a dynamic is much more about commitment than love.
An M/s relationshp can last without love; it cannot last without commitment.
Perfect example are those M/s pairs that exist out there where the gender preference sexually run contrary. Master Jim Glass and slave marsha instantly pop to mind. He's gay and she's a lesbian but 8 years she has been owned by him and a couple years before that she was in service to him. If you doubt she gives all she is then you have obviously not met them.



BitaTruble -> RE: Ownership and love (9/29/2006 9:59:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Noah


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hotwife

If they are truly giving everything of themselves, how could they NOT fall in love with Master?


If they are truly giving everything of themselves, how could they not have themselves ground up into burgers for his cannibalistic delight?

I think my question is only somewhat sillier than yours.



I don't find your question the least bit silly, Noah. There are moments when the thought of being consumed by him is the be all end all of existance. Those times when I wish I were the size of an M&M and could just popped into his mouth where his body will absorb me and I become part of his being through osmosis, feeding him and nurturing him even if just for a brief, fantastic moment, melding into his skeleton, flowing through his blood - whatever use his body makes of me.

Not all the time, but there are moments.

Celeste




MasterFireMaam -> RE: Ownership and love (9/29/2006 10:32:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: yaqeta
for a Dom/me to own a slave completely, is it a fair expectation that the slave love him/her if they are able to?

I think expectations of love are always a recipe for disaster.


Excellent point. It's made me think about what I've said...upon reflection, I think that love and devotion are seperate. In actuality, I seperated them when I wrote the manual, even. Sometimes, it's helpful for me to go back read my own damned manual. There, I say that I will love the slave, but not in a romantic way...more like a cherishing way. I don't state that I expect them to love me. But, I DO state that I expect devotion.

Thanks for making me revisit things in my head!

Master Fire



juliaoceania -> RE: Ownership and love (9/29/2006 10:34:44 PM)

There is something to be said that how could you be willing to give everything if you are not willing to give your heart... so you are willing to give everything except that?

Do not get me wrong, I agree with your post, but it still seems an oxymoron to me to give everything kinda includes giving love too? It hurts my head



Noah -> RE: Ownership and love (9/30/2006 10:01:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

I don't find your question the least bit silly, Noah. There are moments when the thought of being consumed by him is the be all end all of existance. Those times when I wish I were the size of an M&M and could just popped into his mouth where his body will absorb me and I become part of his being through osmosis, feeding him and nurturing him even if just for a brief, fantastic moment, melding into his skeleton, flowing through his blood - whatever use his body makes of me.

Not all the time, but there are moments.

Celeste



Thank you, Celeste. That was lovely, if darkly so.

I hope that you will consider restricting your physical self-sacrifice to lactation, which I feel can be taken and understood in just the sort of way you describe, among others.

They say it is the thought that counts.



Noah -> RE: Ownership and love (9/30/2006 10:17:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

There is something to be said that how could you be willing to give everything if you are not willing to give your heart... so you are willing to give everything except that?

Do not get me wrong, I agree with your post, but it still seems an oxymoron to me to give everything kinda includes giving love too? It hurts my head


Thanks, Julia.

Sometimes an oxymoronic answer pops up to alert us that the question being asked is at best an unhelpful one. This was the larger point I was trying to get at.

We can debate what it means to make real the claim that one is "giving everything" but that approach just looks doomed to confusion and discord from where I stand.

It reminds me of those idiotic conversations about whether God can create a stone so heavy that he can't lift it, and whether or not hernia trusses come in his size.

One alternative is to stop saying: "I wish to give everything" (except in the simultaneously ethereal and grounded sense which Celeste achieved) and instead say: "I wish to offer all I have to give."

Sometimes it is pointless to untie a knot, even wasteful to. Sometimes you can just notice that the knotted rope just isn't binding anything you need to take away. Eh?

You did feature the issue of willingness which I think is crucial to the discussion. I attempt to honor the important place of willingness in my alternative formulation of the offerring.

One point not picked up on so far in responses to my post was the interplay of necessity and contingency in this matter. I think it was addressed very well by the post I responded to in the way its question was worded.

Hotwife, if I remember correctly, didn't ask "Why wouldn't you?" but, so to speak "How wouldn't you?" which I find a much subtler and more beautiful question. I'm very glad she asked it.



juliaoceania -> RE: Ownership and love (9/30/2006 12:41:05 PM)

I suppose if someone has given so much of themselves they have nothing left to give that would be applicable...

...Funny thing about love though, no matter how much you give you always have some left. Perhaps I am wrong about the nature of love though...would make an interesting thread.



KatyLied -> RE: Ownership and love (9/30/2006 12:47:56 PM)

quote:

"Submission is a not a gift!"


heh

I will not be baited.

[8D]



velvetears -> RE: Ownership and love (9/30/2006 12:56:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: yaqeta
Another way to put my question is, if a slave is to give themselves completely to a Dom/me, should they also strive to "give their heart" by loving their owner?


If feeling love is what's needed for that sub/slave to give themselves completely then that is what that slave should strive for.  Not all want or need that.  It certainly isn't necessary for a good working M/s dynamic to function.  As others have stated things like respect and committment are more important, in the long run, for success. 

If someone respects us, unless we actually do something to loose esteem in that persons eyes, we will generally keep their respect indefinately.  Not so with love. Love is so variable, so individualistic, so unpredictable, so unstable - it's undefineable, unquantifiable, it's not staitc but ever changing  - not saying those are bad things at all. i think love is wonderful in all its insanity!  But the question was should the sub/slave give their heart by loving their owner -maybe maybe not.... i think giving things like loyalty, obedience, sacrifice, service etc are equally as important. 



champagnewishes -> RE: Ownership and love (9/30/2006 1:09:15 PM)

My own perception of what love is it a bit askew so i would answer "no". 



agirl -> RE: Ownership and love (9/30/2006 1:18:54 PM)

I'm not sure I could strive to *give my heart*....or to love my Master. If I love him, I love him.........I couldn't work toward it.  I was taken as I was, whatever my *heart* contained.

agirl





Noah -> RE: Ownership and love (9/30/2006 1:23:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

quote:

"Submission is a not a gift!"


heh

I will not be baited.

[8D]



But of course you just were. [:D] Thanks for stopping by.

Admirable restraint, though, Katy. Probly cause your kink is so damned spiritual!



KnightofMists -> RE: Ownership and love (9/30/2006 2:22:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: yaqeta

I'm trying to be really clear here - I'm not asking about whether anyone in particular would/would not have an M/s relationship if they were/were not in love.  Another way to put my question is, if a slave is to give themselves completely to a Dom/me, should they also strive to "give their heart" by loving their owner?


For me all that matters for a slave is that they Obey my will.  Now what provides the motivation to demonstrations of obedience is another question all together.  For some "Love" is a important aspect to provide this motivation for others not so much.  I myself enjoy and desire the emotions that love between two and it has an important part in my M/s relationships.


Just want to add a few more thoughts.

You ask the question "should they also strive to "give their heart" by loving their owner?"  Reading what I stated... I don't feel I answered very clearly. Therefore...

I believe it is important to consider what is an M/s relationship between two people.  For myself, I believe that it is simply total authority of the Master over the slave.  This is to state that the Master can and will make the decisions... which includes what he wants from his slave.  Therefore... if the Master doesn't want "Love" a slave striving to give her heart would actually be disobeying the will of her master.

I really like how Noah turned the phrase to "I wish to offer all that I have to give"  and the Master will take what he should desire.  This is why it is important to understand what your Master desires.  If as a person you have personal need to have a loving interaction with your Master.. then ensure you have a Master first that desires such an interaction.

And as I stated... love is indeed something that I do desire... but I an appreciate that for some this not something that they might want.  No much different than some would want X and I am not interested in X... whatever X maybe



yaqeta -> RE: Ownership and love (9/30/2006 7:07:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

I believe it is important to consider what is an M/s relationship between two people.  For myself, I believe that it is simply total authority of the Master over the slave.  This is to state that the Master can and will make the decisions... which includes what he wants from his slave.  Therefore... if the Master doesn't want "Love" a slave striving to give her heart would actually be disobeying the will of her master.

So, by implication, if a Master does want his slave's love and feels it is something that is required for complete ownership, he then has the right to ask or even demand that she love him?  Would you do this?  Would it work, do you think?

Disclaimer: I'm not necessarily looking at this as just a male Dom/ female sub situation, just carrying on the pronouns in the same way the person I'm responding to used them :)



Frank01 -> RE: Ownership and love (9/30/2006 7:16:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: yaqeta

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

I believe it is important to consider what is an M/s relationship between two people.  For myself, I believe that it is simply total authority of the Master over the slave.  This is to state that the Master can and will make the decisions... which includes what he wants from his slave.  Therefore... if the Master doesn't want "Love" a slave striving to give her heart would actually be disobeying the will of her master.

So, by implication, if a Master does want his slave's love and feels it is something that is required for complete ownership, he then has the right to ask or even demand that she love him?  Would you do this?  Would it work, do you think?

Disclaimer: I'm not necessarily looking at this as just a male Dom/ female sub situation, just carrying on the pronouns in the same way the person I'm responding to used them :)


Does anyone have the right to demand anything that is impossible?



ownedgirlie -> RE: Ownership and love (9/30/2006 7:18:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: yaqeta

Another way to put my question is, if a slave is to give themselves completely to a Dom/me, should they also strive to "give their heart" by loving their owner?

Strive?  No, I don't need to strive. Actually, I was just the opposite at first - scared to death to love him.  However, loving others is in my  make up, as hokey as that may sound.  I love my friends, and I love close acquaintances to some degree.  I am glad Master wanted my love, as ultimately I could not help but love him.

My problem has always been in accepting it in return. I've had some good lessons in that this past year, all for the good.



KnightofMists -> RE: Ownership and love (9/30/2006 7:26:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: yaqeta

So, by implication, if a Master does want his slave's love and feels it is something that is required for complete ownership, he then has the right to ask or even demand that she love him?  Would you do this?  Would it work, do you think?

Disclaimer: I'm not necessarily looking at this as just a male Dom/ female sub situation, just carrying on the pronouns in the same way the person I'm responding to used them :)


If as a Master, they desire love in their dynamic... Then I would expect the slave to give it.  If such a person is unable to give such then the two are obviously incompatible and they should go their seperate ways.




DiurnalVampire -> RE: Ownership and love (9/30/2006 7:30:05 PM)

You can ask, but demanding someone fall in love with you seldom works. If te person you are with doest love you, then you can either give up that option and keep the relationship as it is, or you can start looking again for someone who can and will.  Love is a tricky thing, it tends to hapen wether or not we are ready, tends to happen when we are least expecting it.... and doesnt always happen when we would like it to.

DV



KnightofMists -> RE: Ownership and love (9/30/2006 7:30:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Frank01

Does anyone have the right to demand anything that is impossible?


I agree... Even as a Master.. I can only take from my slaves what they can offer.  However... I do expect them to offer all that is them.  Of course... we are not talking about machines here.   Even if it is offered... doesn't mean the slave will hit the ground running.  More often the case it will start of at a crawl to a walk to a run.



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