RE: Ownership and love (Full Version)

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KnightofMists -> RE: Ownership and love (9/30/2006 7:35:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DiurnalVampire

You can ask, but demanding someone fall in love with you seldom works. If te person you are with doest love you, then you can either give up that option and keep the relationship as it is, or you can start looking again for someone who can and will.  Love is a tricky thing, it tends to hapen wether or not we are ready, tends to happen when we are least expecting it.... and doesnt always happen when we would like it to.

DV


Love for me has always been a Choice as much as it has been a Feeling.  My feelings have always been motivated by what I percieve.. be it real or illusion.  The choice is to see the truth of what I percieve from the lies.



pennylane -> RE: Ownership and love (9/30/2006 7:37:56 PM)

I love my master .He claims he loves me but no matter what I do,he says i`m a terrible sub and could never be a slave.he says I`m a dom but inside I don`t feel that way at all.I will do anything he asks of me.any advice?



Frank01 -> RE: Ownership and love (9/30/2006 7:40:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: Frank01

Does anyone have the right to demand anything that is impossible?


I agree... Even as a Master.. I can only take from my slaves what they can offer.  However... I do expect them to offer all that is them.  Of course... we are not talking about machines here.   Even if it is offered... doesn't mean the slave will hit the ground running.  More often the case it will start of at a crawl to a walk to a run.


There is such a thing as working with available capacity.

Whether that increases.............[;)]



juliaoceania -> RE: Ownership and love (9/30/2006 7:42:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pennylane

I love my master .He claims he loves me but no matter what I do,he says i`m a terrible sub and could never be a slave.he says I`m a dom but inside I don`t feel that way at all.I will do anything he asks of me.any advice?


I would ask what he finds so displeasing about you, and if you cannot change those things perhaps you should ask him why he is keeping you perhaps? It may very well be that what he finds so displeasing another dominant might completely dig about you, and since I have no information it is impossible to give advice.. but good luck



KnightofMists -> RE: Ownership and love (9/30/2006 7:43:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Frank01

There is such a thing as working with available capacity.

Whether that increases.............[;)]


Nods.... that is why I focus on Power Enhancement Relationship dynamics rather than the dogma of Power exchange



pennylane -> RE: Ownership and love (9/30/2006 7:49:31 PM)

well you can see us on adult friend finde slitkitty profile



ownedgirlie -> RE: Ownership and love (9/30/2006 7:51:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: pennylane

I love my master .He claims he loves me but no matter what I do,he says i`m a terrible sub and could never be a slave.he says I`m a dom but inside I don`t feel that way at all.I will do anything he asks of me.any advice?


I would ask what he finds so displeasing about you, and if you cannot change those things perhaps you should ask him why he is keeping you perhaps? It may very well be that what he finds so displeasing another dominant might completely dig about you, and since I have no information it is impossible to give advice.. but good luck

Good point, Julia.  The Dom I submitted to prior to my Master convinced me I could never be pleasing, and didn't have it in me to submit.  And yet he kept me, while reminding me of this opinion daily for about 30+ days until I just left on my own, devoid of any self confidence.  Sometimes we are mismatched, and need to correct that.  Similarly to what KoM and Frank are conversing of, in fact - a dominant may require something of a submissive that is impossible for her/him to achieve.



juliaoceania -> RE: Ownership and love (9/30/2006 8:01:12 PM)

quote:

Good point, Julia.  The Dom I submitted to prior to my Master convinced me I could never be pleasing, and didn't have it in me to submit.  And yet he kept me, while reminding me of this opinion daily for about 30+ days until I just left on my own, devoid of any self confidence.  Sometimes we are mismatched, and need to correct that.  Similarly to what KoM and Frank are conversing of, in fact - a dominant may require something of a submissive that is impossible for her/him to achieve.


This is very unfortunate that you had to go through this before finding someone that could see your true nature.

I like giving credit where credit is due to anyone, even to my former dominant. He was big on exploring different aspects of oneself, and he would not have seen it as a flaw in me if he thought I had some "switchy" tendencies... at one point he thought this before we actually met because I can be very forceful with my writing style... but when we spent some time together he could not detect a "switchy" bone in my body. Different people can get different impressions about you, and this is why someone needs to really know you before they can attempt to define you..smiles

I think that some people confuse "presence" with "dominance"..one can have a forceful "presence" and not be a "dominant".




Frank01 -> RE: Ownership and love (9/30/2006 8:04:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: Frank01

There is such a thing as working with available capacity.

Whether that increases.............[;)]


Nods.... that is why I focus on Power Enhancement Relationship dynamics rather than the dogma of Power exchange


Power exchange is an oxymoron.

Someone cedes authority, and the one ceeded to acts in the best interests of both. The real trick of being an owner is to pick someone who can fit into an overall game plan.

There can be no progress without cooperation-towards mutual goals.



Frank01 -> RE: Ownership and love (9/30/2006 8:06:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: pennylane

I love my master .He claims he loves me but no matter what I do,he says i`m a terrible sub and could never be a slave.he says I`m a dom but inside I don`t feel that way at all.I will do anything he asks of me.any advice?


I would ask what he finds so displeasing about you, and if you cannot change those things perhaps you should ask him why he is keeping you perhaps? It may very well be that what he finds so displeasing another dominant might completely dig about you, and since I have no information it is impossible to give advice.. but good luck

Good point, Julia.  The Dom I submitted to prior to my Master convinced me I could never be pleasing, and didn't have it in me to submit.  And yet he kept me, while reminding me of this opinion daily for about 30+ days until I just left on my own, devoid of any self confidence.  Sometimes we are mismatched, and need to correct that.  Similarly to what KoM and Frank are conversing of, in fact - a dominant may require something of a submissive that is impossible for her/him to achieve.


Building is prefferable to tearing down. It keeps the rain off one's head.[;)]



ownedgirlie -> RE: Ownership and love (9/30/2006 8:12:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

This is very unfortunate that you had to go through this before finding someone that could see your true nature.


Thank you, Julia.  It's all part of life's process. In retrospect, I can see he just didn't know what to do with me, and I could not meet his expectations.  The beauty is that just 4 days after I slithered away with my tail between my legs is when he who is now my owner IM'd me, and my life proceeded to change.

I remember how frightening it was to tell Master I loved him.  My way of telling him was, "I'm afraid to tell you I love you."  When I realized I didn't keel over dead from saying those words, I was able to relax a bit.  :)



ownedgirlie -> RE: Ownership and love (9/30/2006 8:13:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Frank01

Building is prefferable to tearing down. It keeps the rain off one's head.[;)]

So very true :)



BeingChewsie -> RE: Ownership and love (9/30/2006 8:21:24 PM)

 
I can so relate to that. I still have a hard time with voicing that I love him. Monday was his birthday and I gave him a very sappy and romantic card...I was horrifed when he read it in front of me...outloud none the less. He took it in stride told me it was very special to him. I think it is because in my case it is so very awkward to say "I love you"...because it isn't going to be said back...and I always find that rather uncomfortable. I usually just say "I love being yours" which he knows is my way of saying " I love you" but avoiding what feels like to me an awkward silence that follows.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

This is very unfortunate that you had to go through this before finding someone that could see your true nature.


Thank you, Julia.  It's all part of life's process. In retrospect, I can see he just didn't know what to do with me, and I could not meet his expectations.  The beauty is that just 4 days after I slithered away with my tail between my legs is when he who is now my owner IM'd me, and my life proceeded to change.

I remember how frightening it was to tell Master I loved him.  My way of telling him was, "I'm afraid to tell you I love you."  When I realized I didn't keel over dead from saying those words, I was able to relax a bit.  :)



ownedgirlie -> RE: Ownership and love (9/30/2006 8:34:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie

I can so relate to that. I still have a hard time with voicing that I love him. Monday was his birthday and I gave him a very sappy and romantic card...I was horrifed when he read it in front of me...outloud none the less. He took it in stride told me it was very special to him. I think it is because in my case it is so very awkward to say "I love you"...because it isn't going to be said back...and I always find that rather uncomfortable. I usually just say "I love being yours" which he knows is my way of saying " I love you" but avoiding what feels like to me an awkward silence that follows.


I can understand that.  Master enjoys hearing it and it's in my make up to sappily say it, lol.  When I do, he often sweetly replies with, "I know you do." and that makes me smile. Sometimes he says, "Good - you should!" 

Ack at hearing your words read outload.  I used to hate stuff like that until he made me read my letters to him out loud. Oh the horror!!!



Noah -> RE: Ownership and love (10/1/2006 6:46:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
...
...Funny thing about love though, no matter how much you give you always have some left.


Yes. If the relationship is not pathological in the first place, I agree.

My second child taught me this just by coming into the world, and my third child reinforced the lesson upon arrival and they've all continued to ever since.


quote:

Perhaps I am wrong about the nature of love though...would make an interesting thread.


"The Nature of Love" sounds like a chapter title in some book of metaphysics. Yuck. Ptui.

I get the impression that despite your expression of curiousity there you are from day to day much more taken up with "The Practice of Love," and I think that's grand.



Noah -> RE: Ownership and love (10/1/2006 6:57:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Frank01

Does anyone have the right to demand anything that is impossible?


Does anyone have standing to declare impossibility? Unwillingness, yes.

Oh surely about a very broad range of things we can note impossibility. I suspect, though, that we sometimes use this word beyond the range where it properly applies.

The word impossible, after all, is about a future to which none of us have access.

Your point is well taken, though, Frank. Demanding (in a strong sense) much of anything from the future is pretty close to a definition of crazy, I think, or a recipe for doom, anyway. Not that making demands of the past makes any more sense.



Noah -> RE: Ownership and love (10/1/2006 7:05:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I think that some people confuse "presence" with "dominance"..one can have a forceful "presence" and not be a "dominant".


What a wonderful distinction to draw, and draw so clearly. Thanks.

Now I wonder if this is symmetrical. By this I mean to ask whether, if we replaced the words "dominance" and "dominant" in your sentence with "submissiveness" and "submissive" is there some word word which could take the place of "presence" to help us notice a comparable distinction--or even whether a certain sense of the word "presence" itself would do the trick.

Thoughts?



agirl -> RE: Ownership and love (10/1/2006 7:40:19 AM)

Hello ownedgirlie,

It made me smile when I read your post.....I don't often say that I love my Master but I do have the odd moment of weakness...lol...I am mostly likely to be met with * We all have our crosses to bear.* or * Well, that helps.*....and no, he has never said he loves me.

I don't place a great deal of weight on being told I'm loved...it means very little in fact.......how I perceive that I'm cared for is what actually matters. I don't *feel* loved when someone says it to me, I feel it in the way they behave toward me. I've never cared for someone in the same WAY they've cared for me.......so putting the word *love* on it can be confusing at times.

If I say *I love you* to someone, they will both feel that I do and accept it or they will not but it'll be how THEY perceive what it means to be loved that will do that.

That's the way I view it, anyhow.

Regards, agirl



Noah -> RE: Ownership and love (10/1/2006 7:57:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Frank01

Power exchange is an oxymoron.

Someone cedes authority, and the one ceeded to acts in the best interests of both. The real trick of being an owner is to pick someone who can fit into an overall game plan.


I don't think power exchange qualifies as an oxymoron. In any number of spheres power of various kinds is bought, sold and traded. I think it is a deficient name for D/S relationships in general insofar as it seems to rely on a sort of economic model for relationships. Lots of people subscribe to such a model, of course, but lot's of us don't.

In any case we can proceed with this term and its deficiencies just as we can with a term like jumbo shrimp. Even being genuinely oxymoronic doesn't automatically disqualify a term from productive use, not that you suggested that it does.

I think you must be trying to describe your vison of a "good" power exchange relationship since obviously people to whom authority is ceded quite commonly act in ways not to the mutual interest.

In the context of a discussion of interpersonal relationships I find the notion of "an overall game plan" kind of repellent. It isn't an idea which informs my relationships. It isn't the presence of the word game that offebnds me, either. I can be comfortable in a moment of viewing relationships in game-theoretic terms though that would not be my overall view. I don't question your entitlement to this game plan view if it suits you.

quote:


There can be no progress without cooperation-towards mutual goals.


This, of course, is plainly wrong in very many ways, as stated. I wonder in what restricted sense you meant it because I suppose that in some sense it may be true.

Progress can be made by an individual; no cooperation or mutual anything. Progress can be made by pairs or groups thrown together while each addresses unrelated goals some aspects of which happen to be not-incompatible. Progress can be made by adversaries in the very act of pursuing diametrically opposed goals. Progress can of course be made quite by accident.

Would you like to clarify what it was you meant to say there?

Finally, the "Goal Orientation" so popular with the self-help crowd (and many other evangelists) can be a fine way to orient yourself to life. It is not the only fruitful one.



HollyS -> RE: Ownership and love (10/1/2006 8:08:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Noah

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I think that some people confuse "presence" with "dominance"..one can have a forceful "presence" and not be a "dominant".


What a wonderful distinction to draw, and draw so clearly. Thanks.

Now I wonder if this is symmetrical. By this I mean to ask whether, if we replaced the words "dominance" and "dominant" in your sentence with "submissiveness" and "submissive" is there some word word which could take the place of "presence" to help us notice a comparable distinction--or even whether a certain sense of the word "presence" itself would do the trick.


I also like julia's use of the terms "presence" and "dominance" where one doesn't necessarily follow the other.  Being able to plug in the active opposite works very well:  "One can have a forceful presence and still act submissively." The only equivilant I can think of is that some people confuse "amenability" with "submission."  Perhaps it's a matter of the outward actions appearing similar while the mindset involved with each is different -- a yielding of sorts vs. engagement in cooperation.  Not sure if it's quite comparable but it seems analogous to me.

This dovetails a bit with what we've seen in other threads -- the assumption that certain characteristics are associated (often exclusively) with a particular role.  Nice to see a really good example where one's outward appearance is clearly not definitive of that person's position. 

"If we are to achieve a richer culture, rich in contrasting values, we must recognize the whole gamut of human potentialities, and so weave a less arbitrary social fabric, one in which each diverse human gift will find a fitting place."   -Margaret Mead

~Holly





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