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RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015 - 9/30/2006 12:45:37 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Look at the whole system rather than just the small details. We do not go in for extremist politics, we never have done and this is shown in our Governments of the past. Look at Spain, Italy, Germany, Austria etc and historically and today they are inclined towards extreme politics. The electoral system is merely a system, if we wanted far right parties to have a say in Government then we would have provided the system to support this.

Like it or not, continental Europeans have a significant race issue borne out by the Governments they elect to represent them.


I think you will find a significant larger % of immigrants in many western European countries than in Britain which has been more successful at keeping people out despite its own publicity of being liberal in regards to immigration.

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RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015 - 9/30/2006 1:34:19 PM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		This is getting a little worrying for me, albeit for the wrong reasons perhaps.

The view seems to be that PR is a bad thing because it might result in BNP MPs. Well, er, sorry - we live in a democracy I thought, and if people vote BNP under the current system or under PR, and that results in a BNP MP or two, well isnt that a fair choice which has to be respected? I dont think a BNP MP would be either desirable or effective, but if people vote that way, then their views we can lament, but their choice would have to stand under the rules of elections.

Keeping a poor electoral system over PR, because the current system keeps out the BNP is just about the most ridiculous argument for it I have yet heard. Or is it perhaps that those who prefer the current unfair system are actually afraid that PR might reveal some nasty home truths about their compatriots? And that when the extremists of right and left are perhaps elected, that the centre parties might not be able to counter them and defeat them in debate? It sounds very much like the ostrich syndrome to me, along with an unhealthy helping of cowardice. 

Fair elections and fair representation now!

E

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RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015 - 9/30/2006 1:43:07 PM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		You don't need to convince me LE, PR is the only honest voting system because every vote counts. It is NG that seems to have the problem with extremism or at least he appears to think Britain has less of a problem than Europe but I doubt it has. People vote extreme for many reasons and not just about race. If you take race as an issue, one wonders why people in Austria voted for such a rightwing party, one hardly notices any ethnic minority people there, yet where I am it is not a big problem, yet there is numerically more muslims in Holland than the UK.

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RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015 - 9/30/2006 2:01:23 PM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

You don't need to convince me LE, PR is the only honest voting system because every vote counts. It is NG that seems to have the problem with extremism or at least he appears to think Britain has less of a problem than Europe but I doubt it has. People vote extreme for many reasons and not just about race. If you take race as an issue, one wonders why people in Austria voted for such a rightwing party, one hardly notices any ethnic minority people there, yet where I am it is not a big problem, yet there is numerically more muslims in Holland than the UK.


sorry MC - I replied to yours, but it wasnt directed at you!

I believe we are the only country in Europe which does not have PR in some form - even Wales and Scotland have it I understand!? Its inevitable that the occasional nutter will get elected under PR, but if people support a nutter, then thats their choice in my opinion! Any idea we dont have nutters like other European countries is erroneous.

You only have to spend some time in a pub to know what the view on the streets is, and the longer the likes of the BNP is not held up to public scrutiny because they are made invisible by the voting system, the longer certain views will prevail over here. PR will bring some of them to power, and then they can be publicly exposed for the no brows and low brows they are, and certain views can be consigned to the dustbin.

And hey, remember - didnt Ms Whiplash, (Cindy somethingorother?) run for parliament once? If we had had PR, she might just have got in!

E

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RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015 - 9/30/2006 3:37:42 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

And hey, remember - didnt Ms Whiplash, (Cindy somethingorother?) run for parliament once? If we had had PR, she might just have got in!

E


Aah Madam Sin. She get my vote any day of the week. I have vague memories of the correction party which sounded pretty good too. Just think, it would be the first time in your life you vote for the same party as the judges.

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RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015 - 9/30/2006 4:55:55 PM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		A point of order.

No one on this thread has said that they are against proportional representation. So, who exactly are you directing your "it seems to me" comment at?

Let's stay on topic because for whatever reasons we always seem to end all over the place.

Now, if you want proportional representation you have to earn it. You have to earn the right to be in Government. So, staying on topic, how are the Lib Dems going to balance free-market economics with social provision? A simple question aimed at Lib Dem politics (i.e. nothing to do with electoral systems).

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RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015 - 9/30/2006 5:11:33 PM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		The free market can't be controled at national level. There has to be international agreements which is where their LibDem EU policy makes them more honest than the other two parties. The other two parties in the past have made agreements in Europe and then blamed the EU for what they were happy to agree to while pretending to believe in free market economics. The whole point of being in a trade block is to increase trade while remaining somewhat insulated and negotiating at world level from some strength.

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RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015 - 9/30/2006 5:21:14 PM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		The free market can't be controled at national level
 
Absolutely wrong. Free market economics is a form of Government direction of the economy. It is Government decision on regulation. If the Government wants to regulate it has the power to do so in whatever way it sees fit.

The free-market economics problem is not one of a lack of national power and jurisdiction it is one of no one putting any pressure on the national Government to regulate.

Back on topic, how do the Lib Dems perform the feeding of the 5 thousand?

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RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015 - 9/30/2006 5:24:08 PM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		You regulate your market and companies shift to another country. The evidence is near than you think. Look at how many French companies have moved to britain to beat French regulation.

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RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015 - 9/30/2006 5:28:27 PM   
Dtesmoac


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Status: offline 		Lib Dems will never get elected because they are are always out of step with public thinking and the few good ideas they have will  be picked off by the other two parties. Main function of the Lib Dems over the last 10 years has been to take votes from the Conservatives and allow Labour in, their main function in the next 10 will be taking them from Labour which will allow the Conservatives back in.

e.g. there policies on Unilateral Nuclear disarmement, the EU, tax, proportional representation, in each of the last 4 elections they have had non majority viewpoints on these topics and not been able to persuade voters on the LibDem  policy.

From personnel expeirience I find the UK less beligerently / openly racist than many other countries, notably US, Finland, France, Denmark, Belgium, where deepseated racism appears to be acceptable point of conversation and action in significant proportion of the population - based on personnal experiece rather than empirical data !!!

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RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015 - 9/30/2006 5:38:02 PM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		Lib Dems are not out of step with public thinking. They have a serious environmental policy, they are against the invasion of Iraq and they propose social provision. I would say they are in tune with public thinking because of these three key issues.

What I want to know is how do they reconcile this with free-market economics?


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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015 - 9/30/2006 5:43:17 PM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		I agree that the LibDems won't get in, they are clearly out of step all the time. Their policies require too much self sacrifice and the electorate don't go in for self sacrifice.

As for racism, there is clearly a divide between Latin and Germanic Europe. I'm surprised about your views on Denmark but there has recently been less tolerance shown in Scandinavia, even though Sweden has a bigger % of ethnic minorities than Britain or maybe because of it.

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RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015 - 9/30/2006 6:37:31 PM   
EnglishDomNW


Posts: 493
Joined: 12/24/2005
Status: offline 		The Lib Dems barely record half the percentage points of Labour and Conservative in opinion polls.  Even if people support what they're saying, there are just too many staunch supporters of the main two who won't switch allegiance even over something as heated as Iraq.

I don't think there's a Brit posting on this board that will see a Lib Dem Government in their lifetime, which is probably a shame.

Voting Intention — All Certain To Vote

Con
35%

Lab
36%

LD
19%

One slightly more worrying thing is that with Blair's popularity at rock bottom, the public's opposition to Iraq and the fact the Conservatives lost the last 3 elections, they're still behind in the polls.   If I was a British Conservative, and especially David Cameron, I'd find that alarming reading. 

< Message edited by EnglishDomNW -- 9/30/2006 6:51:10 PM >

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RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015 - 9/30/2006 7:06:44 PM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Lib Dems are not out of step with public thinking. They have a serious environmental policy, they are against the invasion of Iraq and they propose social provision. I would say they are in tune with public thinking because of these three key issues.

What I want to know is how do they reconcile this with free-market economics?



Just a daft question. Since none of us here are necessarily privy to the policy making and economic cabinets of the LibDem party - have you tried looking at their website for details on this?

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015 - 9/30/2006 7:39:47 PM   
Dtesmoac


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Joined: 6/22/2006
Status: offline 		Lib Dems are not out of step with public thinking. They have a serious environmental policy, they are against the invasion of Iraq and they propose social provision. I would say they are in tune with public thinking because of these three key issues.

Environmental Policy - part of the public has moved but this will not be a mainstream election issue becuas ethe other parties are offering sufficient to say that the UK is in the forefront compared to many other countries e.g. climate change etc - no longer "dirty man of Europe
Iraq - yep concede that one - but it won't win an election on it's own because now it is about how you can ethically leve the place to burn- Lib Dems will have a big problem with the photo shots of mass murder following a quick pull out
Social Provision - when has this been an election winner in its own right int he UK?

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RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015 - 9/30/2006 7:43:42 PM   
Dtesmoac


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Status: offline 		The ethnic mix in Denmark is not very noticable once you are outside of Copenhagen and even there it is nothing compared to most European countries, but when you talk to Danes the "immigration problem" and all the "crime" it brings will come u in conversation, and then try pointing out that you can't see any ethnic diversity and the tirade goes down hill, follwoed by AquVit.

NB ref Sweeden - its only a few years since they stopped policies of  breading out mental disorders from the population by involuntary sterilisation, so be careful of falling for the steriotypes. 


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RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015 - 10/1/2006 12:57:37 AM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		I'm not blind to Scandanavia. I wouldn't live in any Scandinavian country for all the tea in China, far too regulated and boring. I'm aware of Sweden's chequered history and Norway aren't too hot at having other Europeans there never mind er - shall we say our friends from the south. Though to be fair, they never had empires so they don't have any historic guilt or feel they owe anyone anything.

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RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015 - 10/1/2006 1:28:43 AM   
NorthernGent


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Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		Lib Dem 2005 manifesto:

http://mobular.onlinedm.com/libdems/manifesto/england/

From page 2

"we remain proud of a Britian which is enriched precisely because it is a multi-racial, multi-ethnic society. We will not pander to fear and prejudice"
 
"at the heart of our programme is a determination to achieve a fairer tax system which produces the social priorities that people want"
 
"society is still scarred by inequality"
 
My initial thoughts are they certainly say the right things.
 

 
 
 
 



_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015 - 10/1/2006 1:41:35 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		Easy things to say and believe if you are not in position to do anything.

"we remain proud of a Britian which is enriched precisely because it is a multi-racial, multi-ethnic society. We will not pander to fear and prejudice"

How will this look when they have to deal with immigration both legal and illegal?

"at the heart of our programme is a determination to achieve a fairer tax system which produces the social priorities that people want"

Taxing the rich is one thing but you can't tax them when they move abroad which is what big money does when it feels it is being over taxed. I for one wish they could solve that problem.

"society is still scarred by inequality"

So they are going to tackle inequality? I doubt it but I wish them success without alienating their core middleclass vote.

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RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015 - 10/1/2006 1:56:35 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		Surely NG you are not suggesting that there is not a race issue in the UK...are you?
Its just that the media dont report it, thats all !

Who do you blame for young Afro's shooting one another ? No doubt you will have some odd "sociological" explanation that will exonerate the perpetrators ie the Afros.

Why was racially based chanting at soccer matches frequently mentioned when the recent hate crime legislation was introduced.
We know many Afros are racist because they are allowed to say so on public discussion programmes.

Just a point on the Lib Dems....when I HEARD, not read that he had said, HEARD , Simon Hughes say it would be immoral to stop people diagnosed as HIV positive entering the country I just laughed my socks off.
Health tourism IS a serious problem which NO major party seems willing to face up to.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 10/1/2006 2:03:05 AM >

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