quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

A major unspoken problem with  Muslim communities is that they are not evenly distributed across the nation as a whole therefore quoting stats. as a % of the total population gives a misleading impression as to any problems that are occuring.. No doubt another fact that NG will choose to ignore.
I hope NG saw that Afro Muslim who told J Reid to leave because he, Reid, was in Muslim territory.

Is there anyone "oop North" who can tell me what the peace wall is ? Is it in Bradford or Oldham. Have seen reference to it just didn't store it away for reference because I was just not aware that there are people as willfully blind about social cohesion as NG appears to be !!! 

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

A major unspoken problem with  Muslim communities is that they are not evenly distributed across the nation as a whole therefore quoting stats. as a % of the total population gives a misleading impression as to any problems that are occuring.. No doubt another fact that NG will choose to ignore.
I hope NG saw that Afro Muslim who told J Reid to leave because he, Reid, was in Muslim territory.

Is there anyone "oop North" who can tell me what the peace wall is ? Is it in Bradford or Oldham. Have seen reference to it just didn't store it away for reference because I was just not aware that there are people as willfully blind about social cohesion as NG appears to be !!! 

We have to introduce an oath of loyalty in this country now, as a first step to sorting this problem. Anyone who will not swear it can go find themselves another place to live - and that includes any ethnic British who wont so swear too.

E

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

A major unspoken problem with  Muslim communities is that they are not evenly distributed across the nation as a whole therefore quoting stats. as a % of the total population gives a misleading impression as to any problems that are occuring.. No doubt another fact that NG will choose to ignore.
I hope NG saw that Afro Muslim who told J Reid to leave because he, Reid, was in Muslim territory.

Is there anyone "oop North" who can tell me what the peace wall is ? Is it in Bradford or Oldham. Have seen reference to it just didn't store it away for reference because I was just not aware that there are people as willfully blind about social cohesion as NG appears to be !!! 

We have to introduce an oath of loyalty in this country now, as a first step to sorting this problem. Anyone who will not swear it can go find themselves another place to live - and that includes any ethnic British who wont so swear too.

E

We're in the realms of fascism here because this is swearing obedience to the state.

? So you confess disloyalty to our queen and sovereign, and the state which looks to her as its head? To what then, do you pledge your loyalty please? My view is, if you want the benefits of the state we live in, then you should support it. If you dont support it, then either overthrow it or move elsewhere. This is meant to be a common undertaking for mutual wealth and advantage. Taking advantage whilst not supporting the system is what many in our country (all races, ethnicities, religions, cultures) are doing right now - and thats one of the other problems we have! If its fascist to think the way I do, then sign me up for a black shirt - size 12 please. Got any with a v neck?

Whatever happened to live and let live, openness and respect. Looks like I'm on the first boat out of the country then because the queen and the flag means nothing to me.

Along with a lot of others perhaps. We'd be massively depopulated, and one would be able to afford a decent sized house, have quality education and health care, traffic free roads and very low crime and taxes. I'm all for live and let live, openness and respect - but I am not prepared to live to work to support others who do not do the same, not prepared to have openness used as Big Brother speak for suppressing nasty truths about our society so that we cannot deal with them, and not prepared to have those who have come here (and those here prior) to show disrespect to the country to which they owe loyalty and to those of us who make the place work for their benefit.

To be frank though, this sort of talk makes me very uneasy because it is based on so many assumptions that are borne out by personal values and they are being passed off as a reflection of actual society

Sorry NG - I'm no racist, but to ignore what people are saying whenever they feel safe to express it, is just foolish. Actual society might look all nice and polite and tolerant on the surface, but remove the thin veneer and you will find the truth of the situation - on all sides. The longer we let this simmer, the greater the explosion will be when the pressure cooker finally gives out.

Here's a thought, why can't we have a policy where all those who fear difference, and subscribe to the "rivers of blood" notion, have to swear an oath of allegiance to Britain to help her be a progressive nation that welcomes other cultures. If they don't swear, get out!!

I welcome difference NG - but on some important issues, there can be no difference of opinion or actions. You are either in this nation and a part of it, or you're not, its that simple - and it doesnt make any difference what colour or religion someone is - there are as many ethnic British (probably more) who dont seem to want anything from our nation but a free ride and the freedom to rubbish it at every turn. I would like to see the progressive nation you do, but we cannot ignore the situation if we are to achieve that.

Lib Dems anyone? or have people made themselves comfortable and are careering towards the tired old "we're all going to die if we don't do something about the Muslims routine"?

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Britain has something like 8% ethnic minorities.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Sorry seeks - no conversion. Though I'll take the autographed shirt NG - could get a fortune on ebay I bet! (but how did you come to have it!?)

Oh, I've loads of them, all forgeries. I knock them out of the boot of my car down Salford market at a tenner a go. Free to you though LadyE. No need to return the favour with a photo of the Queen and you walking the corgis. The pleasure is in the giving.

The monarchy - yes, it and the aristocracy abused its position for centuries. But - what other form of head of state would be preferable? Another one of the middle of the road, head in the sand elected ostrich types? Rejecting the modern monarchy out of hand because in some time past it abused its position is plain daft.

I reject the monarchy because I don't believe in heriditary wealth. They are sat on a fortune while we have a serious homeless problem in this country. It is backward.

Look at what powers the queen has - purely ceremonial, she can do nothing without parliament.

Actually, did you know that, as Protector of the Crown, the Prime Minister can make a decision to invade a country without consulting anyone? He/she can do it in the name of the crown for the benefit of the crown. Time to get rid of this sort of nonsensical, undemocratic form of Government.

We already solved that issue in our society some time ago by defeating the monarch in civil war, and reached a settlement which has worked well for the past 300 odd years.

Yeah, worked well if you were or are one of the haves. The state is supposed to look after all of its citizens and the working classes have had to fight tooth and nail to gain concessions from a reluctant state.

To blame the monarchy for the exploitation of the masses in the industrial and post industrial age, is plain communist claptrap - how many factories and corporations were owned and operated by queen Victoria exactly?

You've misquoted me. I blamed the establishment and the monarchy is part of this. Also, this is not simply a Communist viewpoint. I'm not a Communist and all you need to do is look at the standard of health, education and social welfare in the 1850s when the British Empire was in its pomp and rolling in cash.

To then claim there is no problem, when clearly there is, is to totally disregard the views, errant as they might be, of the very people whom the left claim to speak for - the socially deprived, vulnerable and working class people of Britain. Ironic.

LadyE, again, not trying to offend you but this needs to be said. You are aligning yourself with Seeks in the school of making things up. I have never in my life said Britain does not have a problem with race relations. What we are disputing is the cause of racial tension. My belief is racial tension is the result of social deprivation, the resulting lack of satisfaction and the consequent need to look for an easy target to blame (and a lack of education to see who the real enemy is).

And neither is the problem anything to do with race. OK? It is nothing to do with race. The problem is that this country is fragmented by the lack of any common binding factors that unite the peoples and cultures found within it, and worse than that it is being undermined by certain groups who find the idea of a common identity to be less than desirable. This isnt just Muslims, this is found in every racial and cultural and religious group we have here in the UK, including many ethnic British groups. Thus it is wrong to talk about races and racism when this problem is discussed. To ignore the problem, given how widely spread it is, is to risk the disintegration of the nation by neglect, particularly taking into account the likely demographics in the near future.

I'll give you the point that there is a lack of social cohesion. However, it is a result of Thatcher's dismantling of working class institutions and neo-liberalism with its focus on the individual rather than anything to do with groups who are irretrievably hostile to each other. We don't have much of a problem in Manchester - although I do accept there are problems in areas of social deprivation such as Burnley.

If the monarchy as the institution of unity is not acceptable, then perhaps we need some sort of new settlement for the UK, to which all can sign up. Perhaps a written constitution of some sort could provide this function, perhaps some other new and better way can be found - but to ignore the situation at hand will solve nothing.

Nobody is ignoring anything. I disagree with your point that the answer lies in state symbolism. The solution is investment in areas of social deprivation to provide people with the opportunities to prosper. Throughout history, dissatisfaction (borne out through crime and violence) has manifested itself in the poorest socio-economic groups in society more than any other. Provide the right conditions and people will buy into the nation. How do you expect people to show loyalty to a nation, Government and class system that doesn't give a flying one about them?
E

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


I reject the monarchy because I don't believe in heriditary wealth. They are sat on a fortune while we have a serious homeless problem in this country. It is backward.

Originally Anglo-Saxon kings were voted into power. There is nothing wrong with going back to that system

Actually, did you know that, as Protector of the Crown, the Prime Minister can make a decision to invade a country without consulting anyone? He/she can do it in the name of the crown for the benefit of the crown. Time to get rid of this sort of nonsensical, undemocratic form of Government.

The Royal Perogative is really nothing to do with the crown and everything to do with the Prime Minister who is voted in. The fact that this remains so is not a fault of the monarch but the fault of Parliament for which you vote.

Yeah, worked well if you were or are one of the haves. The state is supposed to look after all of its citizens and the working classes have had to fight tooth and nail to gain concessions from a reluctant state.

Where does it state that the state is supposed to look after all its citizens? The business of the state is the state and it is in the best interests of the state to form a consensus so its government can function.

I'm not a Communist and all you need to do is look at the standard of health, education and social welfare in the 1850s when the British Empire was in its pomp and rolling in cash.

It was the nouvo riche and merchant classes that were the most powerful people in the country during the industrial revolution and it was the merchants that built the empire, not the government. During much of that era the government was virtually bankrupt. It was only after the effective nationalising the empire around 1850 that the exchequer began to improve because the whole point of the nationalisation was to stop corruption and exploitation by the merchant classes of people of the Empire.


My belief is racial tension is the result of social deprivation, the resulting lack of satisfaction and the consequent need to look for an easy target to blame (and a lack of education to see who the real enemy is).

The problem is that endless money has been thrown at deprived areas and deprived areas remain deprived which has led to a general migration south of the population. Those that remain, remain in an increasingly deprived area. It's one of the reasons I gave up on the Labour party.

Actually very little of this has anything to do with the monarchy since it is parliament that has all the power and they are voted in. As for a new constitutional settlement, it would be interesting to hear alternative ideas as opposed to a blanket statement I am against this or that.