RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015

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NorthernGent -> RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015 (10/1/2006 2:06:51 AM)
Social Provision - when has this been an election winner in its own right int he UK? I agree it is not an election winner in its own right - that's why I stated it as a key issue. The below link is from the National Centre for Social Research. It talks about the NHS being a key issue for the public (among others). Environmental Policy - part of the public has moved but this will not be a mainstream election issue becuas ethe other parties are offering sufficient to say that the UK is in the forefront compared to many other countries e.g. climate change etc - no longer "dirty man of Europe On reflection, agreed. Iraq - yep concede that one - but it won't win an election on it's own because now it is about how you can ethically leve the place to burn- Lib Dems will have a big problem with the photo shots of mass murder following a quick pull out I can't believe the aftermath will become more important than the event.

seeksfemslave -> RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015 (10/1/2006 2:06:57 AM)
Political Party manifestos are a waste of space. All they will say is..... Love your mother and apple pie and everybody under the Sun, Fair society, equitable solutions to difficult problems, raise standards in, < you name it > bla bla bla ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ vote for me. The BNP is quite explicit tho' lol

Sinergy -> RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015 (10/1/2006 2:10:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent To say the unions were the problem in Britain in the 70s is not calling it right. They could see traditional industry going down the pan and ultimately they were proved right when communties were left to rot with the closure of these industries. They had a duty to themselves and their members. The problem with Britain was a much wider problem i.e. the loss of Empire and industrial might coupled with the effects of nigh on bankruptcy after WW2. Put simply, Britain was struggling to get back on her feet due to wider economic issues. Hello A/all, I want to caveat my comments by pointing out that I am a member of one of the most progressive and democratic unions, the ILWU, on the face of the planet. Enjoy your weekend. Brought to you by the labor unions. The problem I have with most labor union bashing is when you consider historically what ends up happening when a union is destroyed, is that what you pay for your car stays about the same as it was when it was built by union employees. This is because the company that builds the car outsources to Indonesia or wherever to build your Ford Focus, and then records the money they save paying 7 cents an hour instead of $25.00 an hour as profits. After NAFTA, a lot of US industry fled to Mexico to take advantage of cheap labor. Their defect rate skyrocketted due to the uneducated labor pool, and most of them had to move back north with their tail between their legs in order to keep their customers loyal. Expect the current White House dog and pony show screwing up the United States to insist that we invade Mexico and build schools in the next few months. Do I personally really care if the CEO of Ford earns a huge amount of money because he gives the shareholders record profits? No. I dont. I want the wealth shared with those who actually work for a living. Now I am sure I will get flamed for suggesting that people with families should be entitled to be able to work to support them, but its my story and I am sticking to it. I have issues with what happened to both Britain and France after world war 2. When the war ended, the Soviet Union moved in to and refused to leave Germany and Eastern Europe. I dont want to get in to whose fault it was that the allied powers had a falling out, but the net result of that falling out is that Germany and Japan had their industry retooled by the United States, while our former allies France, Britain, etc., were left with just seeds and stems to try to rebuild their shattered economies because they did not border the Red Menace. I have heard people criticize Britain and France for being lazy, etc., and it just gets my knickers in a twist. If they had the help that Germany and Japan had after the war, they would be at least as economically advantaged as our former enemies are. I am not all that familiar with your political party system in Great Britain, but I suspect what will happen soon here in the United States is the Democrats and ReThuglicans will unite into one party, and a party (Im putting my money on Green) will ascend to be the alternative party. When I have run into people (we talk a lot at the docks) who insist we are now and will always be a 2 party system which is Democrat or Republican", my usual response is "tell that to the Whigs and the Know-Nothings" Just me, could be wrong, but there you go. Sinergy

NorthernGent -> RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015 (10/1/2006 2:22:38 AM)
we remain proud of a Britian which is enriched precisely because it is a multi-racial, multi-ethnic society. We will not pander to fear and prejudice" How will this look when they have to deal with immigration both legal and illegal? I think that it will sit well with anyone with a reasonable standard of education who can see that having a concrete immigration policy is not inconsistent with being proud of a multi-racial society. Immigration should be seen as a human issue rather than a racial one. Of course we need concrete immigration laws that are adhered to but the reason for this has nothing whatsoever to do with the claim that various racial groups can't live together. It is to do with too many people competing for few too jobs and thus driving unemployment and a burden on the economy - whether these people are British, Poles, Ugandans is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned - it is a human issue of competition to earn a living. So, in a nutshell, the Lib Dems will be fully justified in saying we are proud that Britian is a place where people embrace difference rather than fear it, but, there are limits to the number of people the economy can absorb. I don't see any problem for them.

NorthernGent -> RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015 (10/1/2006 2:32:01 AM)
The Lib Dems barely record half the percentage points of Labour and Conservative in opinion polls. Even if people support what they're saying, there are just too many staunch supporters of the main two who won't switch allegiance even over something as heated as Iraq. Historically, there is definitely some truth in this but there is one crucial point to be made. The Labour and Conservative parties are no longer occupying their traditional ground. It is this traditional ground that creates staunch support i.e. the core principles that under-pin the parties. Take away these core principles and staunch supporters will move away from both parties. We are seeing this with The Labour Party as many have moved away from it and many still in the party are battling to return it to a party of social equality - there is a fair chance many of these will walk away if Brown's politics is simply more of the same.

meatcleaver -> RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015 (10/1/2006 2:50:11 AM)
Culture not race is the key issue here. When muslims burnt Rushdie's book they immediately confronted the issue of free speach which they obviously don't believe in. I don't give a shit about the colour of my neighbour but the moment they start infringing my right to free speach, a wall goes up and we are in different camps. This is not one incident, similar incidents have provoked similar confrontations in Holland, France and Germany. Now the attitude is forming in Holland, if you want to be Dutch, fine. If you want to be whatever you are but live in Dutch society for the money while wanting to change it for your own comfort, go home. EDITED - Unlike many LibDems I know, I don't go home to my white suburb, I live in a mixed area where only 10% of the people are white.

NorthernGent -> RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015 (10/1/2006 3:03:14 AM)
Sinergy, In Britain, the claims of Union corruption and self-interest was the Conservative Party's propaganda tool for reducing opposition to privatisation and neo-liberalism. It worked a treat and mud sticks so they are forever tarred with this brush. The extent of this is that, today, large sections of the people working in the private sector are almost owned by business. The number of hours worked, the lack of employee rights that basically give employers the right to demand for this that and the other..........where I work we have a mobile phone we must carry around with us from waking up til going to bed in case of emergencies - that's not working for a living it's fucking electronic tagging! I feel like I'm on day release from the nick! It's horseshit, plain and simple. We need a balance in this country because from what I see with my own eyes we are becoming nation of people who live to work.

meatcleaver -> RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015 (10/1/2006 3:03:38 AM)
South West England is a LibDem stronghold. They have a tendency to see anyone form different parts of Britain as foreigners, I wonder how well the LibDem vote will hold up there when they realise the LibDem's view of foreigners is a lot wider than theirs.

seeksfemslave -> RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015 (10/1/2006 3:07:52 AM)
Sinergy said I have issues with what happened to both Britain and France after world war 2. When the war ended, the Soviet Union moved in to and refused to leave Germany and Eastern Europe. AFTER the WAR the Soviets moved in...I hope you made a typo there Synergy otherwise I am discomknickerated, gongoozerled and and totally banjaxed! Dont you mean AFTER the Soviets held and then finally defeated the might of the German Army, admittedly with a little help from the US/UK they then refused to give up their territorial gains for fear of Western military intervention similar to that which occurred during the counter revolution in Russia in I think in 1923. Your point about CEO's pay: totally disagree, they are GROSSLY over rewarded. The real skill in any large technical business, say aircraft manufacture , resides at the technical engineering level. They are the people who should get the massive rewards. Unknown heroes they are, like wot I am !

seeksfemslave -> RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015 (10/1/2006 3:13:43 AM)
NG..if you work in a productive capacity in a privately owned business I will... cough cough splutter splutter take a deep breath.....agree with you next post. Since I disagree with virtually everthing you say I hope you realise what I risk I am taking ! NG..what about Red Robbo...bringing the werkers (sic) out every10 days or so. Where's me shert lol

NorthernGent -> RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015 (10/1/2006 3:16:29 AM)
I can't speak for the Dutch but I don't see British Muslims wanting to change Britain - not a jot.

NorthernGent -> RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015 (10/1/2006 3:26:29 AM)
Well, Seeks, I don't want to put words in your mouth but I've a feeling you fell for the 80s, Conservative, media-backed, frenzy of propaganda about the left. NG..if you work in a productive capacity in a privately owned business I will... cough cough splutter splutter take a deep breath.....agree with you next post. Since I disagree with virtually everthing you say I hope you realise what I risk I am taking ! I'll take that as a compliment, Seeks. Thanks very much.

Riff -> RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015 (10/1/2006 3:37:08 AM)
I suspect your basic premise is fundamentally flawed NG, for the following reasons: Britain tends to elect a government of centre moderates, and we get that with new labour, and the new "compassionate conservatism" that Cameron's prattling on about. Just as Blair and Brown dragged New Labour to the right to occupy the centre, as the Tories vacated it in a willflul slide to the far right under Hague and IDS, so Cameron is coming back to that centre at Labour follows the older tories. The LibDems just committed political suicide with thier assassination of Charles Kennedy and election of Ming "The Merciless" Campbell. They have proven to be as untrustworthy as all the others and in an age where Image is all important, an ancient, bald scotsman has no appeal to anyone English. (Come to think of it, whatever stripe of party we get next time around our PM will be a Scotsman, whatever we desire on this side of the border.) You'll notice there are protest votes in the mid-term council elections and that's when you get the odd BNP and minority councillor, but come the general elections, people vote for the way they traditionally do and go for what they perceive as a "safe" option. If you've ever done any political canvassing you'll also have noticed many follow along familial lines; "My family's always voted for XXX so I will be too." If we had some form of PR, such as the Single Transferrable Vote, then minority parties would get a voice, however we've seen in other countries how that can bring them to a stand-still. Look at the difficulties they had in Germany just recently. Added to this, bcause much of the public are disillusioned with politics, the turnout has shrunk steadily since WWII with only a few blips to buck that trend ('97 being a case in point) and for the Lib Dems to gain any success they need votes. Notice also that they made several gains in 97, but failed to maintain or improve that the next election. It's just notgonna happen, no matter how much wishful thinking

meatcleaver -> RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015 (10/1/2006 3:53:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent I can't speak for the Dutch but I don't see British Muslims wanting to change Britain - not a jot. It is not a question of consciously wanting change but numbers forcing change. Britain doesn't have a large muslim population compared to Holland, France or Spain so Brits can glibly talk about embracing difference as though they are experts at it.

male23uk -> RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015 (10/1/2006 4:01:35 AM)
Britian will be a muslim majority country before the century is over, makes me feel sad to be honest, just annoys me that people get branded racist for speaking out about it.

NorthernGent -> RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015 (10/1/2006 4:35:18 AM)
It is not a question of consciously wanting change but numbers forcing change. Britain doesn't have a large muslim population compared to Holland, France or Spain so Brits can glibly talk about embracing difference as though they are experts at it. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4385768.stm You're right on France and The Netherlands but wrong on Spain. Regardless, the numbers within the communities is irrelevant - it is the fact ethnic groups exist here and we live in a multi-cutural society. This puts us in a position to comment.

meatcleaver -> RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015 (10/1/2006 4:46:28 AM)
Anyone can comment but since the numbers aren't as great in Britain it means you are talking about an experience Britain doesn't have. I think you will find that Spain has a larger % of muslims than Britain. Edit - without being able to find detailed enough stats, Spain is about on par with Britain, though rough guides suggest a larger %.

seeksfemslave -> RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015 (10/1/2006 6:12:33 AM)
NG since you appear quite sanguine about the multi cultural "experiment" that is going on in the UK at the moment will you please answer one simple question...... WHERE IN THE WORLD IS THERE A RACIALLY OR RELIGIOUSLY DIVERSE SOCIETY THAT DOES NOT HAVE SERIOUS PROBLEMS AS A CONSEQUENCE OF THAT DIVERSITY ? I'll start you off.....India , Sri Lanka , Yugoslavia , Nigeria , Uganda.....problems in Holland, Belgium Germany.France Australia Iraq before the early 90's invasion and so on..... Answer the effin question or stop posting fairy tales on the subject !!!!!!!

NorthernGent -> RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015 (10/1/2006 6:19:29 AM)
MC, I've done your hod-carrying for you. There is a link 3 posts above that compares the Muslim populations of Britain and Spain and, as it happens, there is a larger population in Britain buth in numbers abd percentage of population. Anyway, the numbers are completely irrelevant. Britain has something like 8% ethnic minorities. If you think that is not enough to put us in a position to say we have experience of living in a multi-cultural society then that is your call but it's not one I agree with. Ultimately, what you appear to be saying is that I am in no position to talk about race relations or multi-culturalism because there are more Muslims in Holland (as a % of the population) than there is in Britain. This makes the discussion redundant because no British view lacks experience/credibility in your eyes (I remember a multi-culturalism thread a couple of weeks ago and at least 3 Brits were involved in and I don't recall you having the same objections, never mind). Back to the Lib Dems.

NorthernGent -> RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015 (10/1/2006 6:44:34 AM)
Riff, I'll concede that pretty much everything you have said is borne out by the opinion polls. I will question the claim that Britons historically want a centrist Government (if Thatcher's 13 years were centrist then I've completely lost my mind, the previous Labour Government was left of centre). However, this is only picking at the bones of what you are really saying. Today, yes, as a society, quite possibly as a result of having the two Governments mentioned, we like a balance. A balance between economic prosperity and some sort of social concern. Was the Campbell/Kennedy issue political suicide? I don't see it that way but then that's a representation of me and what I want from political parties, others may see it differently. I do take your point on a Scotsman running the show. Some English they will baulk at this, sad but true, the old grannies playing bowls in Dorset would quite like the shiney package. On the other side of the coin, I'd like to think some swing voters in the North would be turned off by Cameron as being style over substance. A point well made is the voting numbers. A spot of lack of foresight on my part as I hadn't considered that and as you say, at the very least, the Lib Dems can not get into Government without an upturn in the number of people voting. Having said all of this, I think there is a real opening for them if they can grasp it. The reason being the Conservatives are seen as completely out of touch with society and old fashioned in the same way the Labour Party of the 80s was seen as old fashioned and not progressive (although the current opinion polls suggest they are reconnecting with sections of the population, time will tell if this is simply talk not backed up by action). With New Labour in for a tough time with competing factions in the party they will lose votes to the Lib Dems because in the current climate of fear Britons want security rather than infighting (as Labour and Lib Dems have some common ground they are the natural choice). Time will tell but they'll never have a better chance than this to make some real inroads.

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