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Punishment is Deceptive - 9/30/2006 4:49:39 AM

ExSteelAgain

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From: Georgia
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The thread on how do you punish a sub who is not into flogging and the responses has me pondering if we are not deceiving ourselves with regards to finding punishments that the sub doesn’t want. I’m starting this thread to examine this twist. Many subs say they couldn’t be “punished” by flogging because they like it and at first I agreed with the idea, but then I considered the big picture. It has me looking at things differently.

A submissive is going to like whatever is done to her because she understands she is being punished and appreciates the control. Finding things she doesn’t like is not really doing something to her she doesn’t want. She may scream or whatever, but when it is over, she finds comfort in the punishment and the structure of the D/s. She will be aroused on some level by whatever is done to her. This probably even includes temporary abandonment. It is useless to try to devise punishments she doesn’t like.

It would be more honest to simply state your displeasure, then “punish” with the flogger or whatever in almost the same way as you flog for pleasure. The dynamic of her being punished is the point hitting home to her. Sure it is going to arouse her, but it is also reinforcing the control facet and possibly in a greater way because she is feeling the erotic power of the instrument that affects her best and knows she needs it.

_____________________________

You can paint a cinder block bright pastel pink, but it's still a cinder block. (By Me.)

Post #: 1

RE: Punishment is Deceptive - 9/30/2006 5:03:22 AM

Estring

Posts: 3314
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I think intent is what makes the difference. If my slave knows that I am paddling her because I am upset with her, she will not enjoy it. My displeasure with her makes it an agonizing experience.
I can use the same paddle on her in play, and she will enjoy the pain immensely.

_____________________________

Boycott Whales!

(in reply to ExSteelAgain)

Post #: 2

RE: Punishment is Deceptive - 9/30/2006 5:06:53 AM

mstrjx

Posts: 2045
Joined: 11/27/2005
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I have always thought that a 'punishment' isn't the act of punishing, but the idea of punishing.

Assuming I am with a partner who enjoys some level of painplay, and that a part of 'fun' (or discipline or training or whatever you wish to call it) I give the partner a spanking. It could be easy, rough, whatever. It doesn't matter. To that partner that spanking will be fun, thrilling, erotic. All pleasurable feelings.

Time passes, some punishable transgression occurs, and the partner knows that 'whatever happens next' is a punishment. They know this because of the conversation that is occuring prior to the act. This conversation cannot be physical, other than the mouth and ears part. The conversation, be it one-way or two-, is psychological and emotional.

To carry out the punishment, let us assume the exact same spanking. Same number of strokes, same duration, same amount of force. But notice I don't say same amount of pain.

The exact same spanking will provide two different effects. In the first case, the spanking is wonderful because it is given in the spirit of 'sweetness and light'. In the latter example, the spanking could be conceived as hell on earth because of the 'spirit' of punishment. The actual punishment lies within the psyche of the partner, because of the psychological groundwork that was laid prior to the actual act.

Most people would say that the most effective D/s or M/s is in the head. This is the example.

Jeff

_____________________________

Know thyself. It's the best gift you can ever give yourself.

(in reply to ExSteelAgain)

Post #: 3

RE: Punishment is Deceptive - 9/30/2006 5:08:16 AM

mstrjx

Posts: 2045
Joined: 11/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

I think intent is what makes the difference. If my slave knows that I am paddling her because I am upset with her, she will not enjoy it. My displeasure with her makes it an agonizing experience.
I can use the same paddle on her in play, and she will enjoy the pain immensely.

I look like such a copier, don't I? I'm sending myself to a corner for typing a long, slow post.

_____________________________

Know thyself. It's the best gift you can ever give yourself.

(in reply to Estring)

Post #: 4

RE: Punishment is Deceptive - 9/30/2006 5:10:35 AM

RedSavageSlave

Posts: 733
Joined: 9/12/2006
Status: offline

I agree with your thinking on this one. I dont think that I get "aroused" with being punished but it does ultimately give me what I am seeking which is the understanding of His control over me and my life and THAT is the most powerful aphrodesiac in the world to me.

_____________________________

My give a damn's busted.

So many thoughts, so few of them rational

(in reply to ExSteelAgain)

Post #: 5

RE: Punishment is Deceptive - 9/30/2006 5:22:39 AM

ScooterTrash

Posts: 1407
Joined: 1/24/2005
From: Indiana
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I think a hard look and change in tone can be as productive as anything.

_____________________________

Formal symbolic representation of qualitative entities is doomed to its rightful place of minor significance in a world where flowers and beautiful women abound.
-Albert Einstein

(in reply to ExSteelAgain)

Post #: 6

RE: Punishment is Deceptive - 9/30/2006 5:35:16 AM

MrrPete

Posts: 614
Joined: 11/7/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ScooterTrash

I think a hard look and change in tone can be as productive as anything.

I have to agree with you Scooter.

I don't really believe in corporal punishment in my BDSM relationships.
I much prefer the psychological approach. It lasts longer.

_____________________________

Awrabest,

Mr. Pete

Boycott Citgo

(in reply to ScooterTrash)

Post #: 7

RE: Punishment is Deceptive - 9/30/2006 5:36:43 AM

LoveYouAlways

Posts: 4
Joined: 9/24/2006
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Gotta agree w/ the posts on this thread that I've read ... the main differentiation between a "play" spanking & punishment is the intent AND the understanding of that by the sub/slave.

I'll add 1 more differentiation though. In punishment, there is no modulation or variation with the sub/slave in mind ... that is, the spanking continues regardless of her arousal, pleasure, etc. That sounds obvious, but in a spanking for play, I do sense where the sub is at, read her body language, and make minute modifications all the while to heighten the experience for her. Whereas during punishment, it's more of a hard pounding regardless of & despite the sub/slave's feelings. That MAY translate to a harder spanking, but often not ... several of my previous subs were hardcore spankos & liked to feel the effects of the spanking the next day, just as if they'd just been spanked.

(in reply to ScooterTrash)

Post #: 8

RE: Punishment is Deceptive - 9/30/2006 6:34:36 AM

LordODiscipline

Posts: 995
Joined: 6/28/2004
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I did not see the prior thread - however, I can guarantee that punishment delivered with an object that they would (normally?) like can be delivered in such a way as they would dislike it intensly and proper punishment can be delivered.

Everyone has their breaking point in everything.... it is just a matter of being able, capable, and willing to pursue it properly.

~J

By the way - I DO believe in corporal punishment as a means to several ends and do not hesitate to employ it IF there is sufficient cause and reasoning to do so... I do not understand why anyone would limit their repetoire in such a way... "a hard stare" may work in some instances (and, often can) - but, it is not the panacea for all ills or response required in others.

In a business relational dynamic, writing someone up is effective - as it levies the threat of dismissal properly. In a private relationship, that is simply silly... so, when a talk, a stare and/or a word is not sufficient or satisfactory to convey the issue... and, punishment is due (a stare is not punishment, but a cautionary of potential punishment) - then it is required.

Besides -

In some situations the dominant may look like Groucho Marx trying to give the "hard look" as stringently as it is required... and, that is not a good look for anyone who believes they should be in charge.

A stare conveys a threat.... unless you are willing and capable of following through on that, it will lose its meaning and effectiveness. Stating "I would never"is akin to stating "my 'stare' is a complete bluff"

Just a few additional thoughts

< Message edited by LordODiscipline -- 9/30/2006 6:45:24 AM >

_____________________________

"Anyone who thinks they're important is usually just a pompous moron who can't deal with his or her own pathetic insignificance and the fact that what they do is meaningless and inconsequential."
William Thomas

(in reply to ExSteelAgain)

Post #: 9

RE: Punishment is Deceptive - 9/30/2006 6:57:45 AM

LadyHugs

Posts: 2299
Joined: 1/1/2004
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Dear ExSteelAgain, Ladies and Gentlemen;

I do understand the philosophy to which you have presented on this thread.

There are several dominant triggers that take place, to which some never realize but, I will brush on them a bit further down on the comments.

First, why a slave misbehaves has direct impact in the dominant's mind to adjudicate justice and it's administration. If it is an honest error, the dominant may speak with the slave. True, it is discipline but it is to gently put the slave on track. However, if the slave made an error wilfully; then it was a choice that they knew had a risk of consequences. Most who manipulate a dominant to give them attention, even in a negative way; do so because there has been a lack of communication as to get the feeding a slave needs without the need to act out or, its a sport--or manipulation for pure sake of controlling a dominant through a knee-jerk reaction. I much rather have a slave who needs to 'feel' the whip because they need to feed the spirit, approach and give me their pre-known que as to give me that 'ah-light bulb' moment; she/he needs maintainence; instead of having to feed herself/himself through trickery, manipulation or negative behavior.

Now to the adjudication. In a dominant's mindset--there is a difference between using the whips for pleasure and or punishment. When we deal with emotions; for example hate and love--it effects the host body, changing the chemicals within and the energy flow from his/her core. I have demonstrated this in classes, presentations, demonstrations--It can be done through this threat to yourself. Here is how; Take the strong hand and then think of what you as an individual hates the most--I mean genuine hate. Then put that hand to your face cheek. You will feel the energy or lack there of. Take a mental/emotional break for a count of 50. With the weak hand and the emotion of love. Something that moves you deeply and profoundly filled with love to your own core spirit and then touch your cheek; you'll feel the difference. It is a fact, that the energy comes from within the dominant's body and tools are just an extention of the hand. This also effects the tools to the slave's body as well.

In addition, most dominants before exacting discipline/punishment will make a statement as to why this adjudication is taking place. Sometimes dominants will let the slave think on it for a short while to a very long while and punish when the slave least expects it.

What is unwise, is that the dominant makes up the rules and punishes for a behavior after the fact. It isn't good planning. If there is something the dominant sees that needs to be addressed and rules made, do so--the warning is warranted that next time it will cause a painful adjudication of punishment. The degree is depending on how new the rule is and how much the slave knew the consequences before hand. Waiting for punishment can be just as affective as a full scale beating.

Just some thoughts.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs

(in reply to ExSteelAgain)

Post #: 10

RE: Punishment is Deceptive - 9/30/2006 7:21:09 AM

raiken

Posts: 868
Joined: 10/18/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain

It would be more honest to simply state your displeasure, then “punish” with the flogger or whatever in almost the same way as you flog for pleasure. The dynamic of her being punished is the point hitting home to her. Sure it is going to arouse her, but it is also reinforcing the control facet and possibly in a greater way because she is feeling the erotic power of the instrument that affects her best and knows she needs it.

i believe this to be true for the most part. i say it is the intention of the one doing the punishing, correcting, etc., that makes all the difference, as in using different strokes of said flogger, and changing up on the energy expounded. But more so, it depends on the mindset of the sub, how she internalizes actions of her dominant.

(in reply to ExSteelAgain)

Post #: 11

RE: Punishment is Deceptive - 9/30/2006 7:28:18 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

A submissive is going to like whatever is done to her because she understands she is being punished and appreciates the control.

This is like saying kids like discipline because they need structure. I may need discipline, but that does not mean I enjoy it

quote:

Finding things she doesn’t like is not really doing something to her she doesn’t want. She may scream or whatever, but when it is over, she finds comfort in the punishment and the structure of the D/s.

I will not "scream" when I am disciplined because my discipline is not physical. Children are also emotionally satisfied that parents care enough to intervene and control their behavior.

quote:

She will be aroused on some level by whatever is done to her. This probably even includes temporary abandonment. It is useless to try to devise punishments she doesn’t like.

Temporary abandonment is a hard limit because of my issues, physical discipline is a hard limit for him because he does not want me to become a sam like his first submissive and does not reward bad behavior. I do not like my internet taken away. I do not like my movement restricted. I do not like missing out on fun things that are planned. I dreaded this as a kid and I am not looking forward to my Daddy doing these things to me.

quote:

It would be more honest to simply state your displeasure, then “punish” with the flogger or whatever in almost the same way as you flog for pleasure. The dynamic of her being punished is the point hitting home to her. Sure it is going to arouse her, but it is also reinforcing the control facet and possibly in a greater way because she is feeling the erotic power of the instrument that affects her best and knows she needs it.

I agree, but it also depends on the submissive

If you got this far into my response, you are going to see that I truly believe the best discipline is self inflicted. In other words I have this huge guilt complex, and my Daddy is smart because he uses this to discipline me first. It is the best thing if I monitor my own behavior and not repeat a behavior that he finds displeasing twice, right? Isn't the whole object that I conform to his dominance?

My mom used to say "A good spanking clears the air". She RARELY spanked me (can count on one hand), but discipline was not to be punitive, or "get even" with me.. it was to establish my role and place that I had overstepped in some way. I spanking set things right in the world... being disciplined by grouding me was much more common, it did make me feel comforted to know I was cared for enough to be disciplined.

So I must ask, is the motive to punish to stick it to your submissive and get even??? Is it to really get her? or is it to change her behavior? If your punishment brings desired results then it works.. if it doesn't work then you are doing it wrong. My Daddy is not punitive or vindictive with me, so it is not about denying me some feeling of comfort or peace within the structure of our dynamic.,.. it is about addressing destructive behaviors..so far I haven't needed discipline at all, but one day I may... it makes me feel good that we outlined the goals of it before we did it...

One last thing, my mom used to say it hurt her more than it hurt me to discipline me, and I never knew what that meant until I had a unmentionable of my own....it is food for thought, the failure of a submissive is not always onesided (some would say never onesided)

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 9/30/2006 7:30:37 AM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to ExSteelAgain)

Post #: 12

RE: Punishment is Deceptive - 9/30/2006 7:29:16 AM

OhReallyNow

Posts: 249
Joined: 9/11/2006
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not liking pain of any kind, this slave would find any physical 'punishment' to be enough of a deterrent to misbehavior.

with that said, Master is one who will use CP if the need arises for it, though he dislikes doing so. This slave has had this only once, and NEVER wants to ever be put in a position to have to go through it again. She knows her place, and when she inadvertantly steps out of it, a single word from Master and a look is more than enough to remind her that she is treading a very thin line.

_____________________________

~ When anger rises, think of the consequences
CONFUCIUS ~

(in reply to ExSteelAgain)

Post #: 13

RE: Punishment is Deceptive - 9/30/2006 7:30:02 AM

CreativeDominant

Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain

The thread on how do you punish a sub who is not into flogging and the responses has me pondering if we are not deceiving ourselves with regards to finding punishments that the sub doesn’t want. I’m starting this thread to examine this twist. Many subs say they couldn’t be “punished” by flogging because they like it and at first I agreed with the idea, but then I considered the big picture. It has me looking at things differently.

A submissive is going to like whatever is done to her because she understands she is being punished and appreciates the control. Finding things she doesn’t like is not really doing something to her she doesn’t want. She may scream or whatever, but when it is over, she finds comfort in the punishment and the structure of the D/s. She will be aroused on some level by whatever is done to her. This probably even includes temporary abandonment. It is useless to try to devise punishments she doesn’t like.

It would be more honest to simply state your displeasure, then “punish” with the flogger or whatever in almost the same way as you flog for pleasure. The dynamic of her being punished is the point hitting home to her. Sure it is going to arouse her, but it is also reinforcing the control facet and possibly in a greater way because she is feeling the erotic power of the instrument that affects her best and knows she needs it.

Interesting way of looking at it, ExSteel. Assuming that it is true, and the more thought I give to it, the more that I see that it could be, I can see the validity of what you are saying. But...given the validity, then I have only my instincts to fall back on and my instincts tell me that in most cases to go the opposite of what they expect. However, now using this insight, perhaps the opposite of what they expect may just be the opposite of the opposite they were expecting as the 'intent' is the thing.

(in reply to ExSteelAgain)

Post #: 14

RE: Punishment is Deceptive - 9/30/2006 7:33:04 AM

raiken

Posts: 868
Joined: 10/18/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain

The thread on how do you punish a sub who is not into flogging and the responses has me pondering if we are not deceiving ourselves with regards to finding punishments that the sub doesn’t want. I’m starting this thread to examine this twist. Many subs say they couldn’t be “punished” by flogging because they like it and at first I agreed with the idea, but then I considered the big picture. It has me looking at things differently.

A submissive is going to like whatever is done to her because she understands she is being punished and appreciates the control. Finding things she doesn’t like is not really doing something to her she doesn’t want. She may scream or whatever, but when it is over, she finds comfort in the punishment and the structure of the D/s. She will be aroused on some level by whatever is done to her. This probably even includes temporary abandonment. It is useless to try to devise punishments she doesn’t like.

It would be more honest to simply state your displeasure, then “punish” with the flogger or whatever in almost the same way as you flog for pleasure. The dynamic of her being punished is the point hitting home to her. Sure it is going to arouse her, but it is also reinforcing the control facet and possibly in a greater way because she is feeling the erotic power of the instrument that affects her best and knows she needs it.

Interesting way of looking at it, ExSteel. Assuming that it is true, and the more thought I give to it, the more that I see that it could be, I can see the validity of what you are saying. But...given the validity, then I have only my instincts to fall back on and my instincts tell me that in most cases to go the opposite of what they expect. However, now using this insight, perhaps the opposite of what they expect may just be the opposite of the opposite they were expecting as the 'intent' is the thing.

OMG! LOL! The scary thing is...that i actually understand this, and agree to some extent! *grin...sitting here waiting for my truck to come back from the garage...ugh...lol

(in reply to CreativeDominant)

Post #: 15

RE: Punishment is Deceptive - 9/30/2006 7:37:07 AM

becca333

Posts: 1050
Joined: 4/11/2006
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It's not the act of punishment, it's the fact that I deserve it. Earning his displeasure is the worst thing that can happen, the physical chastisement is a cleansing act to allow me to atone.

(in reply to CreativeDominant)

Post #: 16

RE: Punishment is Deceptive - 9/30/2006 7:41:34 AM

catize

Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline

I prefer to be treated as an adult, therefore I act as an adult. It is imperative that I understand all the rules and behaviors which I will be required to abide by before I submit. Once I have agreed, I take my responsibilities seriously; i.e. I follow the rules!
If I make an honest mistake, or have a momentary lapse of judgment, a discussion with my master is all that is required to put me back on track. Yes, it can be seen as a warning, but there is no doubt in my mind that severe consequences would befall me if I did not heed that warning.
The only punishable offense would be a deliberate disobedience to an agreed upon rule. If such occurs on a regular basis there are greater problems in the dynamic than 'what will work as punishment?'
I do like pain, and I agree there are certainly levels of pain that I would not enjoy. However, it seems to me that focusing on punishment is negative, whereas a discussion on how to get positive results would better serve..
I submit and obey because it fulfills me to do so, not because I live in fear of punishment.

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to ExSteelAgain)

Post #: 17

RE: Punishment is Deceptive - 9/30/2006 7:48:40 AM

CreativeDominant

Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: raiken

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain

The thread on how do you punish a sub who is not into flogging and the responses has me pondering if we are not deceiving ourselves with regards to finding punishments that the sub doesn’t want. I’m starting this thread to examine this twist. Many subs say they couldn’t be “punished” by flogging because they like it and at first I agreed with the idea, but then I considered the big picture. It has me looking at things differently.

A submissive is going to like whatever is done to her because she understands she is being punished and appreciates the control. Finding things she doesn’t like is not really doing something to her she doesn’t want. She may scream or whatever, but when it is over, she finds comfort in the punishment and the structure of the D/s. She will be aroused on some level by whatever is done to her. This probably even includes temporary abandonment. It is useless to try to devise punishments she doesn’t like.

It would be more honest to simply state your displeasure, then “punish” with the flogger or whatever in almost the same way as you flog for pleasure. The dynamic of her being punished is the point hitting home to her. Sure it is going to arouse her, but it is also reinforcing the control facet and possibly in a greater way because she is feeling the erotic power of the instrument that affects her best and knows she needs it.

Interesting way of looking at it, ExSteel. Assuming that it is true, and the more thought I give to it, the more that I see that it could be, I can see the validity of what you are saying. But...given the validity, then I have only my instincts to fall back on and my instincts tell me that in most cases to go the opposite of what they expect. However, now using this insight, perhaps the opposite of what they expect may just be the opposite of the opposite they were expecting as the 'intent' is the thing.

OMG! LOL! The scary thing is...that i actually understand this, and agree to some extent! *grin...sitting here waiting for my truck to come back from the garage...ugh...lol

~smilin'~ Always good to know that a submissive is starting to get you...

And whaddaya mean, that's scary???

(in reply to raiken)

Post #: 18

RE: Punishment is Deceptive - 9/30/2006 7:51:57 AM

MisPandora

Posts: 2911
Joined: 4/7/2004
From: Philadelphia, PA
Status: offline

Part of this muckety-muck is because we so often confuse the terms

DISCIPLINE

with

PUNISHMENT.

Punishment is corrective action for an infraction or enforcement of rules. As defined: suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution; a penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure.

And while one of the dictionary definitions of discipline *is* punishment, many actually use discipline as one of it's alternate definitions: training that corrects, molds, or perfects the mental faculties or moral character.

Teaching a lesson or taking corrective action with something other than the adverse seems a bit meaningless to me, but then again, I'm one who makes them go out and cut the switch from the forsythia bush or the apple tree themselves.....

_____________________________

Pandora
Ms World Leather 2004
Ms Philadelphia Leather 2004

"Simply put, if you want a real femdom to love you, give her reasons to love you." Gloria Brame

(in reply to ExSteelAgain)

Post #: 19

RE: Punishment is Deceptive - 9/30/2006 7:55:21 AM

charismagirrl

Posts: 297
Joined: 8/30/2006
Status: offline

This is a lesson i learned recently with my Daddy/Master....i don't do alot of things to be punished for (other than scolding) but there are a ton of things i feel i need to "atone" for.(long story ) When my Daddy punishes me for these things it is sooo different than when he plays with me.

As someone said, he doesn't wait to read me and how i'm feeling. He doesn't start slow and build up to it. When he does it he means business. The same exact toys/implements that make me quake in my socks during a punishment i enjoy during play The difference is that there is no build up, my heart knows that i'm being punished and even if it is super painful it won't stop until Daddy is through (which usally seems much much longer than it really is)

Also, although not a total masochist, i do have masochistic tendencies and yet punishment for me is so not pleasurable. i have a much harder time accepting the pain and working through it when i know it's because i did something wrong.

(in reply to CreativeDominant)

Post #: 20

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