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RE: The history of mankind - 10/3/2006 11:08:35 AM   
WhipTheHip


Posts: 1004
Joined: 7/31/2006
Status: offline 		Well said.    The Templars were tortured in manner that defies human
imagination.    The connection between the Templars and Freemasons
is a tenuous one. 


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

...You have to be an Orthodox Christian to become a Mason...



False.  Nowhere in Masonic dogma is there a mandate such as this.

quote:

...and that is probably why the Pope had them burned at the stake in the 1300's...


False again.  
 
The Knights Templar was an organization sanctioned by the Roman Catholic Church in 1128 to guard the road between Jerusalem and Acre, an important port city on the Mediterranean Sea. The Order of Knights Templar participated in the Crusades and earned a name for valor and heroism.
 
They answered only to the Catholic Church and attracted the attention of powerful lords, who were interested in obtaining their wealth and power. In 1305, Philip the Fair, King of France, set about to obtain control of the Knights Templars. To prevent a rise in the power of the Church, and to increase his own wealth, Philip set out to take over the Knights.
 
The year 1307 saw the beginning of the persecution of the Knights. Jacques DeMolay, along with hundreds of others, were seized and thrown into dungeons. For seven years, DeMolay and the Knights suffered torture and inhuman conditions. While the Knights did not end, Philip managed to force Pope Clement to condemn the Templars. Their wealth and property were confiscated and given to Philip's supporters.


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Profile   Post #: 41
RE: The history of mankind - 10/3/2006 11:17:32 AM   
WhipTheHip


Posts: 1004
Joined: 7/31/2006
Status: offline 		The first inquisition was started to stamp out the "herasy" of the Cathars. 
How do you spell "herasy"?    Anyway, the Cather's religion was much
closer to the teachings of Jesus than Roman Catholicism.    Actaully,
Nazism is closer to the teachings of Jesus than Roman Catholicism.
But the Cathars really did have a pretty good religion.  The Cathars
were Christians.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

Once I finish the whole book I am going to go back and start cross-referencing with other research and see how much of it has been proven accurate and how much of it is hulabaloo. 


Kenin,
You have an opinion and have made conclusions based upon the vast knowledge obtained by almost finishing one book on the subject? The schism between the Catholics and the Masons goes back to the Crusades, and was a major reason for the Inquisition. Mostly is was about money. But that will require much more reading from a varied sources to appreciate the perspective.

As important as any of the information you read is knowing the source. More importantly know the author's agenda and prejudice. "Facts" standing alone don't provide historical perspective and taken out of context can lead to the wrong conclusions.


< Message edited by WhipTheHip -- 10/3/2006 11:59:24 AM >

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RE: The history of mankind - 10/3/2006 11:22:29 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		How do you spell actually; actually?

Ron

ease up there big fella........Merc AND Beth both know how to spell......

we all have finger ticks.



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(in reply to WhipTheHip)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: The history of mankind - 10/3/2006 2:03:37 PM   
SirKenin


Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

How do you spell "herasy"?   


Have no fear.  We know what you meant (and it is heresy for your future reference. )

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Profile   Post #: 44
RE: The history of mankind - 10/3/2006 5:24:11 PM   
Arpig


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Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
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quote:

Part of it.  So you are qualified to comment on the work how?  Because you read a couple of pages? 

Actually I got about 3/4 the way through it

quote:

 I do not think that is how this works.  You read the whole book.  Then you crossreference it with any other material you can get your hands on, and at the end you ascertain the middle ground.

I see, and if you are in the habit of cross-referencing while you read, does that invalidate one's opinion? Is it not possible that after working one's way most of the way through a book, and finding its assertions to be untenable one will decide not to waste any more time with it?

quote:

In the interim, I do not think you are qualified to pass judgement on it.


quote:

An open mind is all that is needed here, and research will accomplish the rest.  You had a closed mind, because it either did not fit in with what you wanted to believe, what you were told to believe or some of the facts were misconstrued (which we know this for a fact) so you threw the baby out with the bathwater. 

I did approach the book with an open mind, and I am afraid it is you who have the closed mind, you refuse to accept the simple fact that this particular book is propaganda

quote:

When finished this book, I have been generously offered a list of resources with which to crossreference. 

I hope you consider the source of this list of resources, and that person's opinion on this topic, as the list is almost certainly guaranteed to be biased, I know any list I provided would be.

I hope you can find a way to respond without making sweeping assumptions about me and what I may or may not know, or have read.

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Ha Ha...Charade you are!

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(in reply to SirKenin)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: The history of mankind - 10/3/2006 6:03:36 PM   
SirKenin


Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
it is a fact of catholic history that they supported the Knight's Templar...


No, I found out it is not because I wanted to prove conclusively that he did not really read the book at all, or at the least he did not do his homework like he said he did.  He did a Google search for that date to try and prove Me mistaken, but found nothing.  The reason for that is because he had the wrong date...:

I found the May 2, 1312 Papal Bull (which if Arpig had read My post, never mind the book, he would have had in his post) which indicates the correct date.  Not the date that he erroneously put in his.  This bull is entitled "The Papal Bulls Which Attacked the Knights Templar" can be found at:

http://www.ordotempli.org/clement_v_-_the_papal_bulls_attacking_the_knights_templar.htm

< Message edited by SirKenin -- 10/3/2006 6:06:46 PM >

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Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

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(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: The history of mankind - 10/4/2006 4:57:55 AM   
Arpig


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From: Increasingly further from reality
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quote:

I found the May 2, 1312 Papal Bull (which if Arpig had read My post, never mind the book, he would have had in his post) which indicates the correct date.  Not the date that he erroneously put in his. 

Now which date did I erroneously put in mine?, According to the posts...

I wrote (Post #32):
quote:

The bull issued May 2, 1312 (Ad Providum) dealt with giving the property of the Templars to the Knights Hospitaller, the other bull you refer to does not exist, there was no papal bull issued on April 2, 1314. There is no mention of freemasons in the bull Ad Providum. 


So two dates mentioned: May 2, 1312, exactly the same date you mention, so that can't be it, so it must be April 2, 1314.

Let's see what it was you wrote (in post # 18), shall we?

quote:

Actually that is not true, beth.  Pope Clement V issued a bull on April 2, 1314 following the execution of the Masons in France that was published May 2, 1312, abolishing Freemasonry altogether. 


Hmmmm, there is that date: April 2, 1314 again, so which is the erroneous date SirKenin, since you provided us with both dates originally, please tell us which is wrong.

Another point worth noting is that I did not dispute that the Bull of 1312 was aimed at the Templars, I disputed your claim that it abolished Freemasonry altogether (which is obvious from the above quotes). I realise it is easier to discredit what somebody says when you ignore what was actually said isn't it SirKenin, but try to stick to the facts.

[Edited to add the post numbers, since the links didn't work properly]

< Message edited by Arpig -- 10/4/2006 5:01:09 AM >

_____________________________

Big man! Pig Man!
Ha Ha...Charade you are!

Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

CM's #1 All-Time Also-Ran


(in reply to SirKenin)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: The history of mankind - 10/4/2006 6:13:21 AM   
SirKenin


Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline 		I said that it was PUBLISHED in May.  The Pope wrote it in April, 1312 (My typo I see... I meant 1312).  You are arguing semantics.  And the point I (and Woodward) was making, that they did not have the support of the Church, is made clear.

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Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

(in reply to Arpig)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: The history of mankind - 10/4/2006 6:39:23 AM   
Arpig


Posts: 9930
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline 		No, I was not argueing semantics (I am right now though:   http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/semantics), you gave a date, when I quoted that date you said I had "erroneously" put it in my post, when in fact it was you who had entered the date erroneously. Now granted it could have been a typo, but intellectual honesty would have lead you to say so before deciding to accuse me of having made the error.

And that Bull has nothing to do with Freemasonry, so please explain how you figure your point was made. I mean what you are basically doing is saying A=B therefore C=D. The pope attacked the Knights Templar therefore the Freemasons did not have the support of the Catholic church.

Oh, and just one more detail, the author of the book is Albert Churchward (http://www.churchward.com/cw/albertc/), not Charles Woodward (He was a Mason who founded a department store (http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/biography/woodward_c/woodward_c.html)

I am reminded of the line from the new Robin Williams movie about politicians and diapers and why they need frequent changing....it applies to both you and the book

_____________________________

Big man! Pig Man!
Ha Ha...Charade you are!

Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

CM's #1 All-Time Also-Ran


(in reply to SirKenin)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: The history of mankind - 10/4/2006 7:39:25 AM   
SirKenin


Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline 		I did not have the book in front of Me.  I typed it when I got out of bed this morning.  It still does not show that you know anything about it, because I do not believe you do.

Beth said the Knights Templar had the protection of the Church.  You said that the Bull said nothing about the Freemasons...  Well, I hate to tell you, but My research indicates that the Knights Templar are related to the Freemasons, and in some articles I have seen are termed a division of the Freemasons, for example the Rosslyn Templars being a division of Scottish Freemasonry (Scotland happens to have some of the earliest roots to Freemasonry in the modern world).  The main thing that sets them apart is that Freemasonry is very broad in scope, whereas the Knights Templar are very specific.  I can provide links if you need them.

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Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

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(in reply to Arpig)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: The history of mankind - 10/4/2006 12:35:01 PM   
Arpig


Posts: 9930
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline 		If you say so, however that doesn't change the fact that you have waffled and misrepresented what has been said throughout this thread in a rather fruitless effort to make this book into some sort of great revelation...why do you think what is in it is not common knowledge after being published 91 years ago?   Perhaps because it has no real validity? Of course not, it MUST be because the all-powerful masons have controlled the thought processes of the entire world in that time...........riiiiiiiiiiight.

_____________________________

Big man! Pig Man!
Ha Ha...Charade you are!

Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

CM's #1 All-Time Also-Ran


(in reply to SirKenin)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: The history of mankind - 10/4/2006 1:50:13 PM   
SirKenin


Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline 		Personally?  I think that the author, although clearly misguided on some of his facts, brought up some clear points that the Masons should address.  The Masons did not like that.  It challenges their conventional way of thinking.  How would you like it if you were doing things a certain way your whole life, then along comes a guy and says "that is wrong"?  I do not think you would take it very well either.

The book was republished in 2005.  Why?  Because it was felt that the author raised serious questions about the purpose and function of Freemasonry in modern society that need to be answered.  Personally I just tripped across it and felt like it would be an interesting place to start in My quest for knowledge about Freemasonry.  This is just the beginning for Me (and yes, I go on stints like this.. It happens).

_____________________________

Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

(in reply to Arpig)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: The history of mankind - 10/31/2009 8:05:05 AM   
MasterAramis


Posts: 279
Joined: 7/29/2008
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

Members of the sect were highly persecuted in the 1300's by the Pope and others.


The sect you are referring to was not what is known today as Freemasonry but that of the Knights Templars. In 1312 the Pope dissolved the order. It is a known fact that the King of France owed the Templar Order a tremendous amount of money for France's support of the crusades. Having little funds to pay the debt, King Philip IV coerced the Pope into thinking that the Templars were heretics. The Templar Order was destroyed and many, many Templars were put to death, most notably their last Grand Master Jacques de Molay, who renounced his confession of heresy that was taken under duress.

Needless to say all the charges were dropped and the Templars were found innocent years later by the church, but by that time the damage had been done.

However this instance has led to one of the tenets of Freemasonry which is the separation of Church and State.

You have to watch what you read about Freemasonry. To be scholar of Freemasonry, you have to be a scholar of many, many other disciplines as well.

Aramis

< Message edited by MasterAramis -- 10/31/2009 8:16:44 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 53
RE: The history of mankind - 10/31/2009 8:07:29 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		What fresh hell is this? The long dead, arising from the grave on All Hallows Day? This has been cakked since 2006.

Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to MasterAramis)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: The history of mankind - 10/31/2009 8:14:05 AM   
AnnaOfAramis


Posts: 523
Joined: 7/30/2008
Status: offline
quote:

People who are Blue Degrees are harmless.Theere is aabsolutely NOTHING wrong with common Freemasons. Its like a fraternety. But when you start getting into the 33rd degree and higher degress in
Masonry..wether it be Scottish Rite, Royal Arch masonry, etc. There is where you have the people who are behind the conspiracy.


Well there goes the British monarchy then...

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: The history of mankind - 10/31/2009 8:15:33 AM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		I don't think I've seen so many conspiracy theorists as I have of people into bdsm lol. Some kind of link?

SirKenin I would advise that you may want to try reading some books with real credentials.

I'm hoping this book you are reading will lead you to want to do more research instead of just relying on what you are told in that book or the references in that book...very extremely outdated and outlandish.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: The history of mankind - 10/31/2009 8:22:50 AM   
MasterAramis


Posts: 279
Joined: 7/29/2008
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

The book was republished in 2005. Why? Because it was felt that the author raised serious questions about the purpose and function of Freemasonry in modern society that need to be answered. Personally I just tripped across it and felt like it would be an interesting place to start in My quest for knowledge about Freemasonry.


Why don't you just petition a lodge to join? First hand knowledge is always the key.

Aramis

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"He who would be a man must be a master. He who surrenders his mastery surrenders his manhood." - Players of Gor

(in reply to SirKenin)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: The history of mankind - 10/31/2009 8:26:26 AM   
AnnaOfAramis


Posts: 523
Joined: 7/30/2008
Status: offline
quote:

What fresh hell is this? The long dead, arising from the grave on All Hallows Day? This has been cakked since 2006.

Ron




LOL *points finger at her Master* He started it! She didn't even know this thread was here until He revived it from the dead!

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: The history of mankind - 10/31/2009 8:26:59 AM   
MasterAramis


Posts: 279
Joined: 7/29/2008
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

What fresh hell is this? The long dead, arising from the grave on All Hallows Day? This has been cakked since 2006.

Ron


Ron,

You are too funny, but it is the eve of all saints day so I thought a resurrection was in order.

Aramis

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: The history of mankind - 10/31/2009 8:28:33 AM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

The first Lodges were started in the early 1700's over in Portugal, England, Scotland, etc, and had a lot of royalty as members, including the Duke of Kent, Queen Victoria's father. Members of the sect were highly persecuted in the 1300's by the Pope and others.
ORIGINAL: SirKenin


Well, I guess my main question would be:

"The first Lodges were started in the early 1700's over in Portugal, England, Scotland, etc, and had a lot of royalty as members, including the Duke of Kent, Queen Victoria's father.  Members of the sect were highly persecuted in the 1300's by the Pope and others."

If they essentially started in the early 1700's....how was it that the Pope was so pissed off at them roughly 400 years prior to same in the 1300's?

< Message edited by LookieNoNookie -- 10/31/2009 8:30:54 AM >

(in reply to SirKenin)
Profile   Post #: 60
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