RE: Iraq: For Solutions only (Full Version)

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thompsonx -> RE: Iraq: For Solutions only (10/7/2006 5:06:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


I think I mentioned that Hitler, like Napoleon, went to Russia in the winter without his longjohns.
I think I mentioned also that the Russians stretched out Hitlers supply line  to over 500 miles(which cost land and blood).  Hitler attacked Russia in late june of 41 and Stalin realized that he needed to keep the Germans from getting to Moscow before winter so he made the decission to sacrifice thousands of lives to save millions (Stalin was never known for his sensitive heart)



I thought June was mid summer in the northern hemisphere.  Learn something new every day.

The Russians pulled back and used the same scorched earth policy (burning everything behind them) that helped defeat Napoleon, and let winter do the rest.

The other thing the Russians did was develop a tank (T-34) which was the most easily produced and effective tank (for it's time) ever produced by anybody, anywhere.

I find your statement about Hitler not being incompetent was rather odd.  He had some of the best generals in the world at the time, but he refused to listen to their
counsel and invaded Russia anyway.

Weird, we have a President that is not listening to his generals and sending his military in to fight idiotic and suicidal conflicts.

This is one definition of incompetence:  Hiring brains and skill and then refusing to listen to the people that actually know what they are saying.

Just me, could be wrong, but there you go.

Sinergy




In my post that you quoted it says pretty clearly that Hitler started his attack on Russia in late june...by the first of october he was still about 150 miles from Moscow....the battle for Moscow lasts until 5 december when Guderian in his journal admits defeat with a loss of nearly a quarter of a million men, several thousand aircraft and almost 2000 tanks.
Hitler planned many major operations that were successful both in the east and the west, ultimately he lost because he went to an asskicking contest barefoot....he suffered from believing his own propaganda about the inferiority of the Russians.  Hitler also planned several operations that were catastrophic failures...Stalingrad being a prime example Moscow being another


thompson




_________________________________________________________

If I am asleep and you want to wake me.
If I am awake and don't want to make me.



thompsonx -> RE: Iraq: For Solutions only (10/7/2006 5:32:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

I guess when your slim grasp fails your only recourse is to tossing insults.

Again, your grasp of the Pacific war is again seen through a very limited lens of listing only manpower.  I doubt those marines would have had much to do if Kaiser wasn't rolling ships off the assembly lines faster than most countries were building tanks.  How on earth you can dismiss naval battles for an island based war is beyond most peoples comprehension.

It would be like looking at air battles and only counting mechanics.

As for tanks, the T34 was an excellent tank but most people don't realize that the reason we stuck with the Sherman was because it was felt that a heavier tank could not be shipped overseas in as great a quantity.  We fielded a tank in WWII that was equal to everything up to and including the King Tiger but people like Patton were opposed to it for reasons of fuel economy and speed.

So, go back to your insults and when if you desire to return to a debate of facts, let me know.



This from an individual who tells me to "Kiss my ass"

Perhaps you can tell me what I said that you took as an insult.  I simply pointed out your seeming lack of knowledge on this subject. 
If you do not feel that body bags are the primary measure of "heavy lifting" then please tell me what you do consider heavy lifting. 
Which were the significant naval battles that you feel were more important than the land battles.
Perhaps you can tell us which tanks we "fielded" (that is ,put into combat) that were the equal of the King Tiger (which did not seem to do all that well against the TU 34 of the Russians.)
Kaiser was building ships faster than most countries were building tanks....please disabuse me of my ignorance on this topic....or did you hear this on the history channel also.

thompson


________________________________________________

If I am asleep and you want to wake me.
If I am awake and don't want to make me.



thompsonx -> RE: Iraq: For Solutions only (10/7/2006 5:49:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
the Japanese started peace overtures in 1943 which the allies ignored.


    This was the Japanese plan for 'victory' all along.  The Allies were quite right to ignore those overtures.  It was not until after the second nuclear weapon was dropped that they would accept the unconditional surrender we demanded.

    In an (probably useless) attempt to bring this thread back towards the OP, the Japanese were guilty of the same error about the US we are seeing today in the ME, that being that the United States is too soft to endure savagery.  Consider that being forced to island hop against a death-worshipping army of religious fanatics led us to first build flamethrowers and then the most horrific WMD's ever deployed.

      Is peace even possible when one side harbors such a critical misperception about the other?  Appeasement is only a short-term band-aid, surrender unacceptable to both sides.



WyrdRich:
The final surrender of the Japanese was what they asked for in the original overture...the sanctity of the emperor...(the sanctity of the emperor is something that the allies believed in.  Jimmy Doolittle was given specific orders not to bomb the Imperial Palace.)
please tell me why you feel it was necessary for all of those American British and ANZAC soldiers to die just so we could test out our new toy.  It appears that you were not interested in any of the background information I offered on the subject of wars and why they are fought... and for some reason want to cling to the notion that somehow wars are fought for the preservation of freedom and not for the further enrichment of the rich.
Could you please enlighten me as to how you came to the conclusion that:
1. The Japanese felt the U.S. was too soft to endure savagery.
2. The Japanese were a death worshiping army of religious fanatics.


thompson



___________________________________________________________


If I am asleep and you want to wake me.
If I am awake and don't want to make me.



CrappyDom -> RE: Iraq: For Solutions only (10/7/2006 6:09:20 PM)

Stating that people get their sole knowledge of history from watching TV is an insult. 

My history comes from people who rebuilt Tiger tanks for a living as well as a broader understanding of history than it seems you are able to grasp.






bills944 -> RE: Iraq: For Solutions only (10/7/2006 6:31:49 PM)

359 Days Of Iraq Reconstruction Oversight To Go?
The Special Inspecting General for Iraq Reconstruction (SIGIR) has led the charge for the federal government to ensure that American taxpayer dollars are being spent properly to rebuild Iraq.  The office provides a quarterly report to Congress updating the progress that has been made.  In its July 30, 2006 report, SIGIR found that there have been many setbacks in the Iraq reconstruction process due to multiple issues such as security, corruption, and a lack of reconstruction leadership. 
The report to Congress also lists examples of some of the problems that are occurring in the process.  One of the many examples highlighted was the  Basrah Childrens Hospital project, a contract awarded to Bechtel.  This project was originally scheduled to be completed by December 31, 2005 but that date has pushed back to July 31, 2007.  According to the report, the cost of the facility has skyrocketed to over 200% of the initial cost.  During a review of the program, SIGIR found that there was multiple “reporting anomalies,” “weak accounting systems,” and a “poor cost-projection process.”  SIGIR currently has over 80 criminal investigations open.  The Department of Justice is prosecuting over 25 of these cases.

It is amazing that such hard work can go unrewarded.  The Defense Authorization Bill, currently awaiting the President's signature, has set a termination date for SIGIR on October 1, 2007.

With reconstruction still facing obstacles -and billions of dollars still unspent- it does not seem wise to cut oversight short.  Just because 80 percent of IRRF funds have been spent does not mean the job is done.  With the amount of money the taxpayer has spent in Iraq --and what seem to be very limited results-- it seems that SIGIR’s job is far from over.

http://pogoblog.typepad.com/pogo/



WyrdRich -> RE: Iraq: For Solutions only (10/7/2006 6:48:01 PM)

      Because I watch the History Channel, Thom.  Oh, and I also spent a couple of years on a piece of Japan that was completely resculpted to look like Pearl Harbor from the air.  That attack was in the works a full decade before the event.  The belief all along was that a weakened US would negotiate peace rather than making the sacrifices of total war.

     Ever hear of suicide charges?  Kamikaze attacks?  Civilians jumping off cliffs?  Bushido?

      You don't have to watch the History Channel, Thom, but I really think you need to come in out of that sun.

   



bills944 -> RE: Iraq: For Solutions only (10/7/2006 7:54:29 PM)

THE TRIALS OF HENRY KISSINGER
Monday 3 April 2006 1.05am-2.25am (Sunday night)   [image]http://www.bbc.co.uk/furniture/tiny.gif[/image] [image]http://www.bbc.co.uk/furniture/tiny.gif[/image]
"Henry Kissinger is a war criminal," says firebrand journalist Christopher Hitchens. "He's a liar. And he's personally responsible for murder, for kidnapping, for torture." What is Hitchens on about? He could be talking about the lawsuit currently under way in Washington DC, in which Kissinger is charged with having authorised the assassination of a Chilean general in 1970. Or he could be referring to the secret bombing of Cambodia which, arguably, Kissinger engineered without the knowledge of the US Congress in 1969. Or perhaps Kissinger's involvement in the sale of U.S. weapons to Indonesian President Suharto for use in the massacre of 1/3 of the population of East Timor in 1975.

Featuring previously unseen footage, newly declassified US government documents, and revealing interviews with key insiders to the events in question, The Trials of Henry Kissinger examines the charges facing him, shedding light on a career long shrouded in secrecy. In part, it explores how a young boy who fled Nazi Germany grew up to become one of the most powerful men in US history and now, in the autumn of his life, one of its most disputed figures.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentaries/features/feature_kissinger.shtml

THE TRIALS OF HENRY KISSINGER View trailer
http://www.thetrialsofhenrykissinger.com/trials.html



bills944 -> RE: Iraq: For Solutions only (10/7/2006 8:06:02 PM)

 
9/7/2006Bush Requests That Sixth Amendment in Bill of Rights Be Repealed
Filed under: General Articles, The Law — warden @ 7:35 pm Just when you think that the Republican hunger for totalitarian power could not possibly get any worse, it does. Yesterday, George W. Bush proposed that the Sixth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States, part of the Bill of Rights, be repealed. This is not a joke. It’s deadly serious.

President Bush is asking Congress to give him the power to bring people in front of courts and be put on trial using secret evidence that the accused could not see, and could not be told about. The prosecutor, using such secret evidence against the person accused of a crime, would also have the power to refuse to tell the court why the evidence must remain secret. The reason for keeping the secret evidence secret would remain secret, you see.
http://imprisonbush.com/index.php/archives/2006/09/07/amendment-six-undone/



NorthernGent -> RE: Iraq: For Solutions only (10/8/2006 1:33:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Wyrd, you tell me because without a full explanation you're not making a great deal of sense.



   I'm not sure what you are expecting here, North.  Your statement seemed to clearly imply that you do not think Freedom is worth fighting for.  Please explain how I should have interpreted your post.


Wyrd, if you quote the part of my post that you believe implies that I think freedom is not worth fighting for then I'll be able to understand where you're coming from.



NorthernGent -> RE: Iraq: For Solutions only (10/8/2006 2:07:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


I think I mentioned that Hitler, like Napoleon, went to Russia in the winter without his longjohns.
I think I mentioned also that the Russians stretched out Hitlers supply line  to over 500 miles(which cost land and blood).  Hitler attacked Russia in late june of 41 and Stalin realized that he needed to keep the Germans from getting to Moscow before winter so he made the decission to sacrifice thousands of lives to save millions (Stalin was never known for his sensitive heart)



I thought June was mid summer in the northern hemisphere.  Learn something new every day.

The Russians pulled back and used the same scorched earth policy (burning everything behind them) that helped defeat Napoleon, and let winter do the rest.

The other thing the Russians did was develop a tank (T-34) which was the most easily produced and effective tank (for it's time) ever produced by anybody, anywhere.

I find your statement about Hitler not being incompetent was rather odd.  He had some of the best generals in the world at the time, but he refused to listen to their
counsel and invaded Russia anyway.

Weird, we have a President that is not listening to his generals and sending his military in to fight idiotic and suicidal conflicts.

This is one definition of incompetence:  Hiring brains and skill and then refusing to listen to the people that actually know what they are saying.

Just me, could be wrong, but there you go.

Sinergy




In my post that you quoted it says pretty clearly that Hitler started his attack on Russia in late june...by the first of october he was still about 150 miles from Moscow....the battle for Moscow lasts until 5 december when Guderian in his journal admits defeat with a loss of nearly a quarter of a million men, several thousand aircraft and almost 2000 tanks.
Hitler planned many major operations that were successful both in the east and the west, ultimately he lost because he went to an asskicking contest barefoot....he suffered from believing his own propaganda about the inferiority of the Russians.  Hitler also planned several operations that were catastrophic failures...Stalingrad being a prime example Moscow being another


thompson




_________________________________________________________

If I am asleep and you want to wake me.
If I am awake and don't want to make me.



Hitler and the Nazis were all flawed characters and this doomed the Nazi Government to failure. They held bizarre grand aims but no real plan to achieve these aims. They were a group of opportunists who simply made things up as they went along depending on their daily mood and limited education. Hitler personally cynically manipulated the work of Darwin and Neitzsche to fit his own warped view of the world. Of the top men, only Goebbels is deemed have been well educated.

Ultimately, they didn’t have the first clue what they were doing apart from build a few roads/tanks/planes/grand buildings, grab some land in Eastern Europe and dampen objection to this form of Government by operating a regime of terror. Even without the war, Nazi German society and the economy would have collapsed by 1950.
 
The fact Hitler was an opportunist is the reason why no one on this planet can say where Hitler would have stopped with his megalomania. Consequently, Hitler’s war aims can never be neatly summed up.



meatcleaver -> RE: Iraq: For Solutions only (10/8/2006 2:08:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

    Ever hear of suicide charges?  Kamikaze attacks?  Civilians jumping off cliffs?  Bushido?
  


Kamikaze pilots were largely due to social pressure of not losing face (a very big thing in the far east) than the pilots being death loving fanatics. If you read up about them you will find they were not happy about going to their deaths nor were their families. They were not at all like the Islamic suicide bombers of today and had a completely different motivation.

The civilians that jumped off the cliffs did so because they had been told stories of how terrible they would suffer at the hands of the Americans should they be caught alive. Propaganda by their own government but they were terrified of falling into American hands.



NorthernGent -> RE: Iraq: For Solutions only (10/8/2006 3:03:52 AM)

In response to the original post, the solution to Iraq is withdraw. Ultimately, US and British forces will withdraw under public pressure. The question is, how many people have to die before enough people care to make the Government position untenable? The people of Iraq and the wider Middle East will not accept Western intervention in their society and they will fight tooth and nail to oppose it for as long as it takes to achieve self determination.

In terms of the wider question on how the next Iraq is prevented, both the US and British people need take a good, long, hard look at themselves in the mirror and understand why we have created societies that do not care a jot about anything apart from personal security and wealth. This is at the heart of the issue because we are making self-interest the key objective at any price and, while it is the key objective, we are not interested in the destructive policies of our Governments.



NorthernGent -> RE: Iraq: For Solutions only (10/8/2006 3:40:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

   Ever hear of suicide charges?  Kamikaze attacks?  Civilians jumping off cliffs?  Bushido?
 


Kamikaze pilots were largely due to social pressure of not losing face (a very big thing in the far east) than the pilots being death loving fanatics. If you read up about them you will find they were not happy about going to their deaths nor were their families. They were not at all like the Islamic suicide bombers of today and had a completely different motivation.

The civilians that jumped off the cliffs did so because they had been told stories of how terrible they would suffer at the hands of the Americans should they be caught alive. Propaganda by their own government but they were terrified of falling into American hands.


In the main, true but there is an element of Shintoism that places importance on the honour of dying for a noble cause rather than living a life based on compromising your values. You may have read this but if you haven't One Man's Justice by Akira Yoshimura is a book worth a couple of days of anyone's time. It doesn't attempt to excuse Japanese war crimes and is a look at Japanese society and culture pre WW2 from everything from Shintoism to the idea of no surrender.

I know you said a few months ago you've been to Japan. What did you think of the people? I found them very friendly and warm (I felt like the King of England at times) but I couldn't help but feel there was a certain naive obedience about them that makes them ripe for indoctrination. In my view, they lack spirit (a generalisation but it was the picture I built up from spending a month there). If you have been there for a longer period of time then you may have a different impression?



meatcleaver -> RE: Iraq: For Solutions only (10/8/2006 4:04:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

I know you said a few months ago you've been to Japan. What did you think of the people? I found them very friendly and warm (I felt like the King of England at times) but I couldn't help but feel there was a certain naive obedience about them that makes them ripe for indoctrination. In my view, they lack spirit (a generalisation but it was the picture I built up from spending a month there). If you have been there for a longer period of time then you may have a different impression?


Politeness and obedience came about as a much of a way of preventing the country slipping back into civil war, which was one of the worse civil wars ever experienced by any country. It is true that the Japanese are very personable and polite to foreigners while keeping a sense of superiority well hidden but what culture doesn't have a grubby little corner where they feel they are superior? I'm struggling to think of one.

Shintoism was hijacked by the establishment in the Meiji era which modernised Japan to fend off western imperialism so that Japan could remain independent and concentrated the religion on ancestor worship but Shintoism isn't just about ancestor worship but also nature worship which for large periods of history was the main branch but it is not so important in today's Japan. However, pressure from the US for Japan to be more active in the world is giving support to the more right wing politicians who see Shintoism as a symbol of Japan.

As a society it is difficult to penetrate. The mother of my youngest daughter is Japanese and even I find many things baffling about the country but there is a strong liberal vein in Japan that competes with the Japanese version of neocons. The biggest weakness in society is losing face and this is exploited in the same way neocons exploit patriotism and christianity in America. I see very little difference.

I see as much a need to fear the US as to fear Japan or as little to fear, depending on your point of view. Hmm Japan is potentially stronger now than before WWII.



NorthernGent -> RE: Iraq: For Solutions only (10/8/2006 4:32:46 AM)

A fair enough post. I'd be lying if I said I have a good understanding of Japanese politics although I have a basic understanding of Shintoism.

My impression is based only on one month but I'm going back next year, hopefully for longer as I've just landed myself a new job with more holidays and flexi time so I'm hoping I can roll them into one big ball and get 6 weeks off - a bit of a long shot but worth a try - it's either that or pitch up in the US and spend some time at L&M's apple bobbing stall.

Despite, the naive obedience comment, I found it an amazing place.

I wasn't suggesting the Japanese Government poses any sort of threat - I don't know enough about Japanese politics to make any sort of claim. 






meatcleaver -> RE: Iraq: For Solutions only (10/8/2006 4:54:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

I wasn't suggesting the Japanese Government poses any sort of threat - I don't know enough about Japanese politics to make any sort of claim. 



I don't know that much, the more I go to Japan the more I find it full of contradictions I can't penetrate, even when I have someone to explain everything to me. I'm moderately widely read when it comes to Japanese history, literature and art but the deeper I dig the more I get a sense of bafflement but a fascinating place all the same.



thompsonx -> RE: Iraq: For Solutions only (10/8/2006 5:15:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

Stating that people get their sole knowledge of history from watching TV is an insult. 

My history comes from people who rebuilt Tiger tanks for a living as well as a broader understanding of history than it seems you are able to grasp.






My statement was "You gotta stop trying to learn history off of the history channel."  Not that you got your sole knowledge from TV.  It would appear that your knowledge of english is as flawed as your knowledge of history...I am not convinced that a mechanic who works on tanks has the same data base of history as perhaps a history teacher.  So far in this thread you have only sited your opinion and not much else.  I would be quite interested in listening to you discuss facts and reality but opinion is .....well just that, opinion.  This is suppose to be a forum for civil discussion.



thompsonx -> RE: Iraq: For Solutions only (10/8/2006 7:29:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

     Because I watch the History Channel, Thom.  Oh, and I also spent a couple of years on a piece of Japan that was completely resculpted to look like Pearl Harbor from the air.  That attack was in the works a full decade before the event.  The belief all along was that a weakened US would negotiate peace rather than making the sacrifices of total war.

    Ever hear of suicide charges?  Kamikaze attacks?  Civilians jumping off cliffs?  Bushido?

     You don't have to watch the History Channel, Thom, but I really think you need to come in out of that sun.

  



WyrdRich:
I too have spent a little time in Japan ( I taught english at Ehime University in  the late 60's) 
Perhaps you could enlighten us as to just where this piece of land was that looked like Pearl Harbor, and why you feel they had been planning the Pearl Harbor attack for ten years.
You might want to take a look at a little book called "The Reluctant Admiral:Yamamoto and the Imperial Navy" by Hiroyuki
Agawa.  It is the difinitive biography of Yamamoto.  The author seems to differ with your position saying that the plan to attack Pearl Harbor was devised by Yamamoto in early 1940.  That Yamamoto was strongly opposed to attacking the U.S. It also points out that Yamamoto spent most of the time from 1920 till 1936 in the United States  attending Harvard and the U.S. Naval war college and Europe attending the London Naval conference.  I realize this may conflict with what you may have watched on the history channel.
It might  interest you to know that the cypher machine called "Magic" had broken the Japanese naval codes, both blue and purple by 1940.  Another  interesting  point is that  on Jan. 27 1941 the U.S. ambasador to Japan, Joseph Grew, cabled Washington about Japans intentions to attack Pearl Harbor. 
Did the history channel mention that the majority of Japanese are Buddhist not Shinto?
ps:
As a point of courtesy my name is thompson not thom.



Sinergy -> RE: Iraq: For Solutions only (10/8/2006 7:36:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

The question is, how many people have to die before enough people care to make the Government position untenable?



Hello A/all,

In Vietnam, the United States lost 55,000+ troops over a time span that last 14+ years.

In Iraq, the United States has lost 5000+ troops in 4 years.  The exact number is not really known because the Government learned from Vietnam that the United States people are unwilling to deal with large body counts, news reporting truthful statistics, etc., and have classified anything that might make them look like their (the government's) elevator doesnt go to the penthouse.

I may be in the minority here, but I am not sure Iraq was worth 1 person.

But that is just me, and I could be wrong.

Sinergy



thompsonx -> RE: Iraq: For Solutions only (10/8/2006 7:45:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

   Ever hear of suicide charges?  Kamikaze attacks?  Civilians jumping off cliffs?  Bushido?
 


Kamikaze pilots were largely due to social pressure of not losing face (a very big thing in the far east) than the pilots being death loving fanatics. If you read up about them you will find they were not happy about going to their deaths nor were their families. They were not at all like the Islamic suicide bombers of today and had a completely different motivation.

The civilians that jumped off the cliffs did so because they had been told stories of how terrible they would suffer at the hands of the Americans should they be caught alive. Propaganda by their own government but they were terrified of falling into American hands.


Your assessment of the kamakazi is valid.
If you will check the record you will find the U.S. Army took many Japanese prisoners while the Marine Corps took very few...any unbiased history will show that the Marine Corps has a well deserved reputation of brutality to prisoners.

thompson



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